Questioning the Old Testament, Demiurge, Counsels, etc

originally posted by: StalkerSolent

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: StalkerSolent

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

Not for me to determine. I'm not trying to rationalize your god for you.

I just wondered how you thought God should act.

Most likely, hands off, working through the established laws of the universe. Ambivalence

Right, but even under that idea, since God created the laws of the universe, He's still responsible for an awful lot of death.

(My view of how God generally acts is actually pretty similar, except for the ambivalent part.)

But this characteristic neutralizes death. By god not directly being involved with death, death would be just a natural part of life (like it should be). There is no one to point the finger and blame for the death. It just is.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

But this characteristic neutralizes death. By god not directly being involved with death, death would be just a natural part of life (like it should be). There is no one to point the finger and blame for the death. It just is.

So, if God sets up the natural order to have death, and then isn't directly involved, it is not His fault if people die?

What if the role of God in the natural order of things includes stepping in and causing or permitting death from time to time?

originally posted by: StalkerSolent

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

But this characteristic neutralizes death. By god not directly being involved with death, death would be just a natural part of life (like it should be). There is no one to point the finger and blame for the death. It just is.

So, if God sets up the natural order to have death, and then isn't directly involved, it is not His fault if people die?

His fault relies in creating death. That is it. By subjecting all life to the same process, we are all equal. There is no way to judge against this practice since no one is special.

What if the role of God in the natural order of things includes stepping in and causing or permitting death from time to time?

Such a god would be considered immature. A god with these properties picks sides. Therefore in order to get in god's graces, one has to obey whatever rules god sets up so he isn't selected by death. This is a control mechanism. This type of god and freedom cannot coexist. We are merely playthings to a god such as this.

Also, such a god could never be perfect. Perfection implies maturity. A perfect god would never be immature. It is a paradox.

originally posted by: [post=18749547]

His fault relies in creating death. That is it. By subjecting all life to the same process, we are all equal. There is no way to judge against this practice since no one is special.

Not sure everyone would agree with you.

Such a god would be considered immature. A god with these properties picks sides. Therefore in order to get in god's graces, one has to obey whatever rules god sets up so he isn't selected by death. This is a control mechanism. This type of god and freedom cannot coexist. We are merely playthings to a god such as this.

Ummm...obeying God doesn't save people from dying. I don't know any religion that teaches that.

Also, such a god could never be perfect. Perfection implies maturity. A perfect god would never be immature. It is a paradox.

From what high pedestal proclaimest thou this?

originally posted by: StalkerSolent

Not sure everyone would agree with you.

Of course not everyone agrees with me. If they did, there would be no discussion.

Ummm...obeying God doesn't save people from dying. I don't know any religion that teaches that.

It may prevent them from being killed earlier by said god, which IS something that many religions teach. Heck in the case of Job, his family didn't even misbehave, they were just killed to prove a point to Satan (pettiness is also a sign of immaturity).

From what high pedestal proclaimest thou this?

Because the drive towards maturity, is the drive towards perfection. It reasons that the more mature you are, the closer you are to perfection. Since we cannot ever overcome many of our human flaws (anger, jealousy, pride, etc), we could never acheive absolute maturity/perfection.

In other words, a perfect god wouldn't have any human flaws.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

It may prevent them from being killed earlier by said god, which IS something that many religions teach. Heck in the case of Job, his family didn't even misbehave, they were just killed to prove a point to Satan (pettiness is also a sign of immaturity).

Which religions teach that?
Christianity is by-and-large "the rains fall on the just and the unjust," though there is certainly varieties of opinion.

In other words, a perfect god wouldn't have any human flaws.

I don't disagree, but there is a difference between God and men, so judging both by the same standard is foolish. (For instance, people get upset because God is "jealous." I doubt the word is exactly the same in Hebrew, but setting that aside for a moment, it makes sense for God to "demand faithfulness and exclusive worship" (my dictionary) because God made man to worship Him, and worshipping anything else would be against the natural order you referenced. (This argument doesn't need to just apply to Christianity, by the by.)

originally posted by: StalkerSolent

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

It may prevent them from being killed earlier by said god, which IS something that many religions teach. Heck in the case of Job, his family didn't even misbehave, they were just killed to prove a point to Satan (pettiness is also a sign of immaturity).

Which religions teach that?
Christianity is by-and-large "the rains fall on the just and the unjust," though there is certainly varieties of opinion.

All Abrahamic, I mean, Zoroastrian religions teach that god interferes and smites the unholy. It is a guiding principle to their duality.

I don't disagree, but there is a difference between God and men, so judging both by the same standard is foolish. (For instance, people get upset because God is "jealous." I doubt the word is exactly the same in Hebrew, but setting that aside for a moment, it makes sense for God to "demand faithfulness and exclusive worship" (my dictionary) because God made man to worship Him, and worshipping anything else would be against the natural order you referenced. (This argument doesn't need to just apply to Christianity, by the by.)

But isn't that pettiness? If god is infinite and great, why does he need to create a life form with the EXPRESS purpose to worship him? That's like a person creating an android that goes around repeating how great its creator is all day. It's just noise and it doesn't even mean that the words are true.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

All Abrahamic, I mean, Zoroastrian religions teach that god interferes and smites the unholy. It is a guiding principle to their duality.

I don't know about Zoroastrianism, although I am skeptical it works that way because it is dualistic. Christianity holds that the unholy will face their reckoning in the next world and thus they may prosper in this one, although they don't always, and there may be consequences for the violation of the natural order, if you will.

But isn't that pettiness? If god is infinite and great, why does he need to create a life form with the EXPRESS purpose to worship him?

Eh, Christians don't typically believe that God *needed* to create a life form at all. I think God created beings to both complete and share in His creation, and I think one of the most important aspects of humanity is the creative impulse that invites us to join God in the act of creation.

That's like a person creating an android that goes around repeating how great its creator is all day. It's just noise and it doesn't even mean that the words are true.

But, people are not androids.

a reply to: StalkerSolent

But, people are not androids.

you'd be surprised. There are a number of different philosophies, and I agree to them, that say that the majority of people are unconscious programmed physical androids who are basically acting/reacting by mechanical means due to animal instincts and societal programming.

Certainly looks that way to me

originally posted by: dominicus

you'd be surprised. There are a number of different philosophies, and I agree to them, that say that the majority of people are unconscious programmed physical androids who are basically acting/reacting by mechanical means due to animal instincts and societal programming.

Certainly looks that way to me

So...the world is populated by NPCs?
I don't think people are androids. But I do think that people often merely react based on their instincts and the pressures of society.

originally posted by: StalkerSolent
I don't know about Zoroastrianism, although I am skeptical it works that way because it is dualistic. Christianity holds that the unholy will face their reckoning in the next world and thus they may prosper in this one, although they don't always, and there may be consequences for the violation of the natural order, if you will.

That is new Christian thought. But it wasn't always like that. Besides there are still Christians that believe that god strikes down the unholy and saves the devout.

Eh, Christians don't typically believe that God *needed* to create a life form at all. I think God created beings to both complete and share in His creation, and I think one of the most important aspects of humanity is the creative impulse that invites us to join God in the act of creation.

Then he shouldn't be angry or jealous if we ignore him.

But, people are not androids.

That's up for debate. We are certainly slaves to our chemical impulses.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

That is new Christian thought. But it wasn't always like that.

No, it's not. The verse I quoted was from Matthew.

Then he shouldn't be angry or jealous if we ignore him.

Wouldn't God be doing a pretty horrible job if He didn't mind us missing out on what was best for us?

That's up for debate. We are certainly slaves to our chemical impulses.

That's certainly not true, not in my experience, and that idea is both false and dangerous.

originally posted by: StalkerSolent

No, it's not. The verse I quoted was from Matthew.

Sure it is. Most of the Old Testament is stories of god killing humans for some reason or another. There are plenty of Christians who follow this line of thought, even to this day. WBC saying that soldiers dying in Iraq/Afghanistan because we accept homosexuals in America springs to mind.

Wouldn't God be doing a pretty horrible job if He didn't mind us missing out on what was best for us?

There is a difference between enlightening us to his presence and killing us because we don't want to listen.

That's certainly not true, not in my experience, and that idea is both false and dangerous.

Do you know what dopamine is? It is a hormone/chemical that our brain secretes that causes pleasure and it is the source of just about EVERY major addiction you can think of. Pleasure is addicting. But then again so is anger and fear. These emotions are all caused by chemicals in your brain. In fact ALL emotions are chemical reactions and ALL emotions can be addicting because of this. Everything you do, enjoy, and pursue are a result of your addiction to these chemicals. After all, I'm sure you've heard the expression, humans are creatures of habit. What are habits but just forms of addiction?

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
Sure it is. Most of the Old Testament is stories of god killing humans for some reason or another. There are plenty of Christians who follow this line of thought, even to this day. WBC saying that soldiers dying in Iraq/Afghanistan because we accept homosexuals in America springs to mind.

Have you read the OT? I'd say most of it is warfare and the rest is genealogies

There is a difference between enlightening us to his presence and killing us because we don't want to listen.

I haven't seen God doing this...

Do you know what dopamine is? It is a hormone/chemical that our brain secretes that causes pleasure and it is the source of just about EVERY major addiction you can think of. Pleasure is addicting. But then again so is anger and fear. These emotions are all caused by chemicals in your brain. In fact ALL emotions are chemical reactions and ALL emotions can be addicting because of this. Everything you do, enjoy, and pursue are a result of your addiction to these chemicals. After all, I'm sure you've heard the expression, humans are creatures of habit. What are habits but just forms of addiction?

You are playing fast and loose with the word "addiction." But people do things contrary to their chemical proclivities all the time. Consider reading the citations of people who have won the Medal of Honor posthumously, or checking out the stories of people who have been killed for their faith, or reading about people whose religious beliefs prevent them from having sex before marriage. Altruism, ideology, and religious beliefs trump basic human instincts on a regular basis.

originally posted by: StalkerSolent
Have you read the OT? I'd say most of it is warfare and the rest is genealogies

I certainly recall a story from the OT about these two cities called Sodom and Gomorrah that were destroyed by god for being heathens.

I haven't seen God doing this...

I haven't seen god do anything, but that doesn't prevent people from saying it happens.

You are playing fast and loose with the word "addiction." But people do things contrary to their chemical proclivities all the time. Consider reading the citations of people who have won the Medal of Honor posthumously, or checking out the stories of people who have been killed for their faith, or reading about people whose religious beliefs prevent them from having sex before marriage. Altruism, ideology, and religious beliefs trump basic human instincts on a regular basis.

All of those things cause emotions. Emotions that your brain craves. I know I am playing fast and loose with addiction, but I think that is more because humans have a limited understanding of what addiction is. It isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's just part of our nature. Sure we break habits eventually, but we all know how hard that is. Look the fact is that dopamine gets a high, and our brains love it so it wants more dopamine. If that means it has to wire the brain to release it whenever the person thinks a racist thought (they get pleasure from being racist) then that is what happens. If that means that the brain is wired to release it when we are angry all the time, then so be it. Habits ARE addiction.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
I certainly recall a story from the OT about these two cities called Sodom and Gomorrah that were destroyed by god for being heathens.

Those guys tried to rape strangers who visited their city.
"But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly," is a bit of an understatement.

I haven't seen god do anything, but that doesn't prevent people from saying it happens.

This is true.

All of those things cause emotions. Emotions that your brain craves. I know I am playing fast and loose with addiction, but I think that is more because humans have a limited understanding of what addiction is. It isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's just part of our nature. Sure we break habits eventually, but we all know how hard that is. Look the fact is that dopamine gets a high, and our brains love it so it wants more dopamine. If that means it has to wire the brain to release it whenever the person thinks a racist thought (they get pleasure from being racist) then that is what happens. If that means that the brain is wired to release it when we are angry all the time, then so be it. Habits ARE addiction.

But I don't know of anyone who habitually perishes saving other people's lives, or who is addicted to death. Human choice is the factor here, not human addictions. It is one thing to run risks; it is another to jump on a hand grenade.

originally posted by: StalkerSolent
Those guys tried to rape strangers who visited their city.
"But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly," is a bit of an understatement.

Their transgressions are irrelevant (not to mention, since the source is the Bible, I am leery of the descriptions of their sins, the story reads like a hatefic directed at those people for offending the hebrew people). The fact of the matter is they misbehaved, they were killed. That is the argument I am presenting. They angered god and paid the price. Like I said, anger is a human failing. This is my whole point.

But I don't know of anyone who habitually perishes saving other people's lives, or who is addicted to death. Human choice is the factor here, not human addictions. It is one thing to run risks; it is another to jump on a hand grenade.

Just because you don't know them, doesn't mean they don't exist. Have you looked at the dark corners of the internet? There are some really weird and creepy fetishes out there. If humans can do it or experience it, you can bet some human has found away to become addicted to it.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
Their transgressions are irrelevant (not to mention, since the source is the Bible, I am leery of the descriptions of their sins, the story reads like a hatefic directed at those people for offending the hebrew people). The fact of the matter is they misbehaved, they were killed. That is the argument I am presenting. They angered god and paid the price. Like I said, anger is a human failing. This is my whole point.

Firstly, it seems inconsistent to accept the Bible's presentation of God killing people but not accept the Bible's presentation of *why.* Secondly, I do not think it is a failing to be angry at something that is genuinely wrong.

Just because you don't know them, doesn't mean they don't exist. Have you looked at the dark corners of the internet? There are some really weird and creepy fetishes out there. If humans can do it or experience it, you can bet some human has found away to become addicted to it.

You do realize that you cannot be addicted to dying, right? You don't come back. It's a one-shot gig, and I hardly think that counts as addiction. Creepy and weird aside, some people are suicidal, but that doesn't mean they are addicted to death, because typically they only experience it once. (Actually read Sylvia Plath the other day, and *she* might be an exception. IIRC, the third time was her last.)

With all that being said, I don't think your view of human chemical reactions is nuanced enough. Do you really believe people willingly die for an ideology because they have chemical reactions in their brains telling them to do so? The human brain is hardwired for self-defense.

originally posted by: StalkerSolent
Firstly, it seems inconsistent to accept the Bible's presentation of God killing people but not accept the Bible's presentation of *why.* Secondly, I do not think it is a failing to be angry at something that is genuinely wrong.

Yes. This harkens back to the idea of duality, which is too simplistic to describe the universe, that an action can be boiled down to "right" or "wrong". By many accounts, the people in Sodom and Gomorrah were homosexuals and adulterers. You may recognize that as something that has existed forever in large quantities no less. We are told that all the citizens are guilty, but that then includes the children which is paradoxical since children haven't matured sexually yet to BE homosexuals or adulterers.

A truly just god would let the forces of the universe play out and let humans work out their own problems. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by natural causes (btw). Defining an action as good or evil creates bias. Actions are neither good nor evil, they just are. They may seem heinous in our eyes, but we are very short sighted. In the long run, the people of Sodom and Gomorrah wouldn't even be remembered if it weren't for the bible. Their crimes forgotten in the annals of history. Even with the bible, two entire cities are reduced to a sound byte (sinners getting their comeupence) while knowing nothing about how the citizens truly were as people.

The rise and fall of Sodom and Gomorrah is less than an instant in the grand scheme of things. What use would a god that could create the universe (in all its vastness) have worrying and getting angry about such a fraction of the universe's timespan? Heck, even in the length of human history, they are but a blimp.

You do realize that you cannot be addicted to dying, right? You don't come back. It's a one-shot gig, and I hardly think that counts as addiction. Creepy and weird aside, some people are suicidal, but that doesn't mean they are addicted to death, because typically they only experience it once. (Actually read Sylvia Plath the other day, and *she* might be an exception. IIRC, the third time was her last.)

You've never heard of autoerotic asphyxiation?

With all that being said, I don't think your view of human chemical reactions is nuanced enough. Do you really believe people willingly die for an ideology because they have chemical reactions in their brains telling them to do so? The human brain is hardwired for self-defense.

Yes, supporting an ideology triggers dopamine release even if that action causes your death. People take heroin knowing that it could kill them, but that doesn't stop them. Addiction is addiction, and death doesn't stand in the way of humans getting their fix.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

Yes. This harkens back to the idea of duality, which is too simplistic to describe the universe, that an action can be boiled down to "right" or "wrong". By many accounts, the people in Sodom and Gomorrah were homosexuals and adulterers. You may recognize that as something that has existed forever in large quantities no less.

And rapists. Collectively, as a culture.

A truly just god would let the forces of the universe play out and let humans work out their own problems. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by natural causes (btw).

How are you separating "natural cause" from "God" here?

Defining an action as good or evil creates bias. Actions are neither good nor evil, they just are. They may seem heinous in our eyes, but we are very short sighted. In the long run, the people of Sodom and Gomorrah wouldn't even be remembered if it weren't for the bible. Their crimes forgotten in the annals of history. Even with the bible, two entire cities are reduced to a sound byte (sinners getting their comeupence) while knowing nothing about how the citizens truly were as people.

Again, what high pedestal do you stand on to proclaim how the universe should be run? I mean, gosh, that's awfully arrogant, even for my tastes

The rise and fall of Sodom and Gomorrah is less than an instant in the grand scheme of things. What use would a god that could create the universe (in all its vastness) have worrying and getting angry about such a fraction of the universe's timespan?

Maybe because He cares about individuals...

You've never heard of autoerotic asphyxiation?

I've heard of erotic asphyxiation, but the case I remember did result in death. (There's a difference between feeling like you're dying and dying, ya know )

Yes, supporting an ideology triggers dopamine release even if that action causes your death. People take heroin knowing that it could kill them, but that doesn't stop them. Addiction is addiction, and death doesn't stand in the way of humans getting their fix.

Right...but you are missing my point. The human brain and body is wired in such a way as to preserve itself from death (drugs and other stuff is more subtle, and the body can't react to it like it can to other threats.) Obviously it does not prevent people from doing self-destructive things, by inclination or by chemically-induced states. But if the human being was as simply reductionistic as you think it is, we'd all be on drugs all the time. It isn't. There are a variety of priorities, and people do things because they choose to, not because they are chemically induced to do so.

Incidentally...if you believe humans behave entirely off of chemical reactions (not off of choices) and you believe a just God would never interfere on earth, shouldn't we stop prosecuting murderers?