China shows off its C-17 and F-35 prototypes

Ok, well not exactly a C-17 and an F-35 but the Chinese versions of those two will be on display and flying demonstrations at China's largest Airshow the Zhuhai Airshow, not far from Hong Kong.

The Y-20 is China's first indigenous built cargo airlifter, designed to replace their current inventory Il-76's. Slightly larger that the Il-76 and a bit smaller than the US C-17, China sees the Y-20 as a necessary step for their aspiration of power projection. The Y-20 coming to fruition is undoubtedly the result of the plans it bought from a Boeing employee of the C-17 and a combination of design cues from their current An-70's and the Airbus A400m.







The current jet uses Russian Soloviev D-30KP-2 lower bypass engines. Eventually it will get the higher bypass WS-20 Turbofan engines more like the C-17's.

Here is their new engine being tested on a IL-76:



China is also planning on showing off their F-35/F-22 Frankenplane, the Shenyang J-31 Falcon Eagle.







theaviationist.com...

theaviationist.com...

www.airshow.com.cn...

War machines are made to be used. I guess they see the US spending gross amounts of money on the military and want peace of mind. Can't say that I blame them. I'm sure the whole world see's it. It is what it is. I know, I'm not a good patriot. I wish I had the money to buy a politician for the better. Maybe we can collect a dollar from everyone and lobby them like the big boys do.

We're broke morally, physically, and soon financially. It spiraled out of control and like a virus, it will spread to other countries. No one wins the resource war or human nature of being territorial.

a reply to: LOSTinAMERICA

Man did your puppy die today or something?!!

I highly doubt china has any plans In the near future or the even moderate future for a war with a major power. Not even Russia wants it with the US or china.

All this sword rattling to me looks like the 3 big dogs are just finishing up collecting/replacing mini dictators and minor rulers. What happens when china Russia and USA/allies all shake hands for real one day? You would have some estranged bed fellows that would need working on that I think these new fleets of super jets would work wonders on.

Wild card countries like Saudi Arabia and Israel. India and Pakistan might not be able to play nice. Who knows there's a ton of wild cards that having massive battle field dominance over would be wise.

IMO china having knock off warplanes isn't a threat to us.. They practice in them as we use them. The us and her allies are craftsman of war. China has a nice tool collection but I don't reckon they know how to use them as good as us just yet. And even china knows the implications of cutting off relationships with the west. A massive portion of an already shaky propped up Chinese economy would fall and it would probably be a death knell to the country. This complicated ballet of bravado and business is much more comfortable for all and will probably keep playing out like it has since the 80's until we see some real progress with world politics.

a reply to: Sammamishman

It looks like they did redesign the landing gear. I remember when it first came out, and I THOUGHT they said that it had a single row of wheels, which limited what it could carry, but now it appears to have a double like the C-17.

ETA: I don't remember exactly what it was about the landing gear, if it was the current configuration compared to the C-17, but something about it made the C-17 better suited to higher weights than the Y-20. I think it was because the C-17 configuration has a bigger footprint.

a reply to: mindseye1609

I highly doubt china has any plans In the near future or the even moderate future for a war with a major power. Not even Russia wants it with the US or china. Text

1.China is preparing its forces because its being surrounded in the east Asia seas.

2.Russia is being surrounded from the eastern areas where NATO broke the promise that they wouldn't expand but did.

a reply to: Sammamishman
Nice find Sammamishman,

Quite a sleek looking pair of aircraft and nothing like the dated looking efforts they produced in years gone by.

The Y-20 coming to fruition is undoubtedly the result of the plans it bought from a Boeing employee of the C-17

Yes and no, I could give you the complete plans to a 2014 Ford Mustang Shelby but you couldn't build it without the required production and assembly plants and knowledge. Plus there are really only a few ways you can skin a cat, and the high wing T tail layout has proven the most practical.

a combination of design cues from their current An-70's and the Airbus A400m

Now that is what I'm talking about, imitation being the most sincere form of flattery. Actually if you look carefully at the first graphic you posted (again, nice find) you can see much more in common with the Il-76, particularly the wing, wing box and wing to fuse mating area than the C-17. Undoubtedly those stolen plans helped but my suspicion is they would have used them for design cues on how to build lighter weight structures and more modern production assembly ideas.

As for the J-31 this may seem contradictory to what I said about the Y-20 but I actually have more confidence in the Chinese pulling this off having gleaned and be able to reproduce elements of the F-22/F-35 designs they also stole. Firstly they have the motivation to do so, its really important to them strategically so they will throw their very best resources and people at it, plus they have had years of their own independent research as well. Additionally they have produced quite a few different generations of combat aircraft so have the basic experience already. Gaining source code and or developing their own will be one of the top two or three (perhaps most important) priority for their intelligence agencies and their world class software engineering branches. And we know they have tried and likely been successful as they have probably the best software hackers and resources to back those efforts in the world. Additionally they are now the foremost experts on IC circuit design and are the worlds largest producers of consumer and specialist circuits. Hell, there are Chinese made chips and boards in the F-35. There are a couple of areas they are lagging in currently namely some engine production techniques and materials (particularly hot section components) and AESA performance but I believe they will close those gaps to almost nothing in less than 15 years.

Either way it will be an interesting time.

LEE.

a reply to: thebozeian

The J-31 is designed as an export fighter. The J-20 will be their indigenous use aircraft. The J-31 is their version of the F-35, designed for outside nations that can't afford, or can't get access to the F-35 to buy.

a reply to: mindseye1609

I'd like to think they would come together and create a world government that was paradise but it'll be a horror show in reality. I might be a little pessimistic but I'm not wearing blinders either. You create war machines to kill people. That's the point.

a reply to: mindseye1609

Yeah, China is in no position to go toe to toe with the US right now. We have the ability to project power like they can not. We have been fighting wars pretty much non-stop since this country's inception and know how to use the tools in our workshop like no other nation.
I think China's end game is to gain enough of a military threat to make the US think twice before intervening in any local China military movements (Taiwan for starters).

a reply to: LOSTinAMERICA

Aye but if its to kill extremists against the progress and logic of the future then.... So be it I suppose. I respect anyone's ancient belief... So long they don't kill for that belief.

The whole idea of a one world government wouldn't ever take hold anyway, it will more then likely be a larger model of the European Union with local governing autonomy towards a singular goal. Resource cooperation on an unprecedented scale. Crop growth coordination on a global scale. Care and emergency response on a global scale.

These are the possibilities that I hope for and work towards in my little corner of the world. Not a liberal future. Not a conservative future but a future ran by logic and understanding. We are almost there. I hate to say it but the capitalistic system we have in place now has to die for a new "capalistic" version of socialism to take hold. Where logic instead of greed dictate the direction the capalistic entrepreneurial economy heads.

I know we are way off the original topic of Chinese jets but I'm just trying to highlight the point that we should view these like Canada or Mexico or Spain getting these jets. Lets not automatically assume they will be aimed at our allies.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Maybe the early spy shot prototypes had the single row gear. I can only find pics of them with the double row. I think the C-17 has a larger cargo area and better engines for a heavier lift capability. IIRC I think the C-17 has longer legs too. I'm surprised they didn't add winglets the the wing tips of the Y-20 too, they must have missed that page of the C-17 blueprints.

a reply to: Sammamishman

Oh, I remember what it was. If you look at the C-17 MLG, it's a triple wheel design, with two sets of three wheels on each side, which gives it a fairly wide footprint. The Y-20 on the other hand went for the six wheel design, but did it two-two-two in a fairly narrow footprint. That means that the C-17 can operate in rougher field areas than the Y-20 will be able to, because of the landing gear footprint.

originally posted by: Agent_USA_Supporter

2.Russia is being surrounded from the eastern areas where NATO broke the promise that they wouldn't expand but did.

BS Russian propaganda should always be balanced with western propaganda:

Russian claims that NATO promised not to enlarge
Russian officials claim that US and German officials promised in 1990 that NATO would not expand into Eastern and Central Europe, build military infrastructure near Russia’s borders or permanently deploy troops there.

No such pledge was made, and no evidence to back up Russia’s claims has ever been produced. Should such a promise have been made by NATO as such, it would have to have been as a formal, written decision by all NATO Allies. Furthermore, the consideration of enlarging NATO came years after German reunification. This issue was not yet on the agenda when Russia claims these promises were made.

Allegations about NATO pledging not to build infrastructure close to Russia are equally inaccurate. In the Founding Act, NATO reiterated “in the current and foreseeable security environment, the Alliance will carry out its collective defence and other missions by ensuring the necessary interoperability, integration, and capability for reinforcement rather than by additional permanent stationing of substantial combat forces. Accordingly, it will have to rely on adequate infrastructure commensurate with the above tasks. In this context, reinforcement may take place, when necessary, in the event of defence against a threat of aggression and missions in support of peace consistent with the United Nations Charter and the OSCE governing principles, as well as for exercises consistent with the adapted CFE Treaty, the provisions of the Vienna Document 1994 and mutually agreed transparency measures.”

NATO has indeed supported the upgrading of military infrastructure, such as air bases, in the countries which have joined the Alliance, commensurate with the requirements for reinforcement and exercises. However, the only combat forces permanently stationed on the territory of the new members are their own armed forces.

Even before the Ukraine crisis, the only routinely visible sign of Alliance forces in the new members were the NATO jets used in the Baltic States for the air policing mission. These minimal defensive assets cannot be described as substantial combat forces in the meaning of the Founding Act.

Since the crisis, NATO has taken steps to increase situational awareness and bolster the defences of our Eastern members. This, too, is entirely consistent with the Founding Act and is a direct result of Russia’s destabilizing military actions.

Finally, the Act also states, “Russia will exercise similar restraint in its conventional force deployments in Europe.” Russia’s aggression against Ukraine is a flagrant breach of this commitment, as is its unilateral suspension of compliance with the CFE Treaty.

- NATO

originally posted by: Aloysius the Gaul

BS Russian propaganda should always be balanced with western propaganda:

Actually, it *IS* correct ... this is one of the "under the board deals", that lead to the self inflicted collapse of the Soviet Union and the "stand down" of arms, in Yougoslavia.

NATO is the one, who is the aggressor ... always has.

The Russians "wanted" the deal, so they "took their word for it". They didn't learn anything from history, as they should've known that the US will never honor any deals.

ALL CURRENT WARS, are a result of broken deals by the US.

In WWII, Germany was so afraid of Russia that they ran to the US/Britain and cried their hearts out for a deal, to save them from the Russian madness. Knowing that they faced nothing but "extermination" from Russia, the sight of such the world has never seen before. Germany thought, to their own destruction, that the US would treat them better. The US "promised" the Geman's, they would NOT do "the Nurnberg trials", literally speaking. The entire world, knows they never honored that.

Remember, at this very point in time ... Germany was actually DEFEATING the US. The US/Britain invasion was successful at the beginning, and they advanced far, but eventually Germany countered them, and were "sending them back to dunkirk" II. Because of this, Germany thought they had a trumpf in the deal. They could "give" Germany to the US/Britain, stop Russia's advances, and come out of it ... alive.

Wrong, no sooner had they "surrendered", than they were stabbed in the back.

Same happened to Osama bin Ladin ... a guy who payed cash to fight a US/British war in Afghanistan against the Soviet Union, suddenly was a bad guy. And US/European TV was broadcasting old Afghanistan movies of the man, to create a "foreigner" for the people to hate. Playing on the psychological conflict of people, trapped between their "hate" and their "shame", they have used it as a means to war on Iraq, and ally Iran.

Make no mistake, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Quatar and Arab Emirates are the real ISIS states in the middle east. They ARE the wahabbist states in the Area. Yet, the US wars on the only state that ISN'T one ... Syria.

The bible tells you, "From their actions will you know them, not from their words". And this applies to the US and it's NATO allies.

They are traitors, they tell you one thing ... and do the opposite. Just take Ukraine as an example ... today there is a war in Donetsk, the Ukranian army is invading the pro-Russian area. But in western media, it's a "Russian invasion". There is not even a question as to "why should Russians invade their own pro-Russian area" ?

The US/NATO tell you one thing, and do the opposite ... and during the peace talks on Ukraine. Russian president Putin was busy in buying Forbes flattery, and thinking of himself as a big cahooney, while at the same time, NATO was arming Ukraine to the teeth, to make them advance on the eastern territories. While all the time, in western media ... saying "Russia is doing it".

It's an old trick, you accuse your enemy of it ... as a result, nobody will believe you of doing it. You take the weapons out of your enemies hands, long before they can use it.

Russia could say anything they want, bug whatever they say is just going to be a lot of whining ...

Russia should get rid of Putin, quickly ... even "physically" if he can't be removed peacefully. And then "do what they gotta do", which is either give up the area, or "bomb NATO to smitherenes". Putin won't do either, and as a result he'll lose Russia itself.

The man is so arrogant and stupid, that he thinks he can rely on China ...

That's his dumbest mistake ever.

a reply to: bjarneorn

So you type that Germany was winning WW 2 against the western Allies? have you ever seen newsreel footage of the bomb damage the cities and factories suffered from American and British bombings? Gun camera footage of individual soldiers on bicycles being shot at? rail yards being strafed? (Actually a German word meaning 'punished') go to youtube, be amazed.

I thought I had saved some of the geopolitical news out of S.E. Asia but unfortunately can't spend the time to find it now: Basically China and Thailand are going to start doing military exercises. ( I did a thread about USA Thai relationship since 1954 is at a low point) not exactly those words but anyone could see the USA was pissing off the Thais with their words and deeds.. A new ambassador should be in country come January ... Hope this one is a little smarter.

China is starting to invest heavily in Thailand with road and rail projects.. The Chinese are not dummies nor are the leaders of the countries that make up S.E. Asia enamored with the so called Pacific swing the USA has announced with much fanfare and little substance... The states has already requested to use Uttapo airbase but the Thais are not interested since the Wall street lackey and his sister was deposed by a military coup.. Usually where Thailand goes the rest will follow except for Viet Nam which tends to do it's own thing..

Even Japan is starting to arm itself.

China plans on being on parity with the USA by 2020... Plans of mice and men but they are serious about moderation.

Found one article: Thai-China ties destined for new level of strategic significance
www.nationmultimedia.com...

Left unattended by the major Western powers following the May 22 coup, Thailand and China have quickly strengthened their relations - especially in longstanding defense cooperation.

During the brief visit to China last week of Deputy Prime Minister and Defense Minister General Pravit Wongsuwan, Thailand and China agreed to conduct a joint air force exercise for the first time within a year - and all three armed forces will now participate in full-scale bilateral military drills.

The new collaboration can pose a direct challenge to the all-weather US-dominated security exercises held regularly with Thailand over the past five decades. A new pattern China-led security network, which anchors on Thai-China friendship, could loop in neighbouring countries such as Laos, Cambodia and possibly Myanmar in the near future.

Truth be told, after the establishment of diplomatic relations in 1975, regional crisis such as the Cambodian conflict (1979-1992) and the Asian financial crisis (1997), as well as Thai political quagmire, have played important roles in boosting Thai-China relations. In the truest sense of the word, Beijing has proved it has been a virtual ally of Thailand.

However, from within, there has been some soul-searching among top military leaders on any move to approach the two prominent powers - China and the US - that would shape the future strategic landscape of Asia and Asean. The alliance with the US since 1954, which has been the country's biggest security asset, no longer holds the same value as in the past. After the coup, Thailand has become more recalcitrant towards the US. In the past, it has responded to US strategic requirements. However, from the Thai point of view, the lack of understanding and "hurtful" American responses, especially those coming from their diplomats stationed here, towards the internal situation was a barometer of Washington's disinterest and insensitivity.

On the other side of the coin: People try and not purchase Chines stuff because most know it will not work as advertised.. I purchased a LED lamp for my office desk (made in China) did not look at the manufacturer but liked the look of the lamp.. Got it home and my wife was looking at the box it came in....Made in China... she just shook her head and said, "If you use it, just wait and see, it will not work for long... She is probably correct...

The future of Chinese air force, the PLAAF, will be based on missiles that can cover ranges of up to 4000 km. DF-25, 26 and 27 missiles will be the benchmark for PLAAF. While the existing air force does have a healthy proportion of short range missiles, it is lacking in long range cruise and ballistic ones. Speed and maneuverability will be enhanced in the missiles in near future. PLAAF will also have a defense interceptor family, referred to as HQ-19 for air and land use. The navy version of the missiles will be called HHQ-26. Reports have been made about PLAAF working on developing electromagnetic systems such as spacecraft launchers and aircraft catapults. Weapons that will be powered by microwave and tactical lasers are also said to in line for PLAAF inclusion. Furthermore, anti-satellite and satellite combat systems, kinetic energy weapons and directed energy weapons, including particle beam weapons, will form the strength of PLAAF. These developments are expected to be ready for use by 2020.

Very high frequency (VHF) radars such as HK-JM and HK-JM2 are included in the air force fleet. Developments will take place on counter-network and counter stealth technology. The detection range of the radars will be 500 km. Owing to the development of these high powered radars, surveillance and tracking systems are expected to become more precise. China is also working on a technology that can detect crafts that do not emit radar-friendly waves.

The Chinese mantra for the future is: winning in advance. With brilliant strategic planning and development of new technologies, China will well achieve its ambition. Added to that is the fact that Chinese are not highly dependent on foreign technology. The country prefers to develop its own technology in all aspects of existence, which is a huge point in its favor. Despite being high on attack mechanisms and offence attacks, China is a major contributor to world peace, being an important member of the United Nations peace endeavors.

www.chinesedefence.com...

IMO China has allot of stroke in this region of the world.. Heck they are neighbors and could basically bark and most countries would bow down... Not many other options ... Most of the countries IMO like the USA and respect it's military... It is the leadership and staying power of the U.S. commitments that most question; especially if it is their very survival which is thought about...

youtu.be...

a reply to: pikestaff

Anything bjarneon says can not be taken seriously. He constantly talks about how glorious it would be if Russia started nuclear war with the US to show them who is boss.

originally posted by: bjarneorn

originally posted by: Aloysius the Gaul

BS Russian propaganda should always be balanced with western propaganda:

Actually, it *IS* correct ... this is one of the "under the board deals", that lead to the self inflicted collapse of the Soviet Union and the "stand down" of arms, in Yougoslavia.

NATO is the one, who is the aggressor ... always has.

The Russians "wanted" the deal, so they "took their word for it". They didn't learn anything from history, as they should've known that the US will never honor any deals.

ALL CURRENT WARS, are a result of broken deals by the US.

In WWII, Germany was so afraid of Russia that they ran to the US/Britain and cried their hearts out for a deal, to save them from the Russian madness. Knowing that they faced nothing but "extermination" from Russia, the sight of such the world has never seen before. Germany thought, to their own destruction, that the US would treat them better. The US "promised" the Geman's, they would NOT do "the Nurnberg trials", literally speaking. The entire world, knows they never honored that.

Remember, at this very point in time ... Germany was actually DEFEATING the US. The US/Britain invasion was successful at the beginning, and they advanced far, but eventually Germany countered them, and were "sending them back to dunkirk" II. Because of this, Germany thought they had a trumpf in the deal. They could "give" Germany to the US/Britain, stop Russia's advances, and come out of it ... alive.

Wrong, no sooner had they "surrendered", than they were stabbed in the back.

Same happened to Osama bin Ladin ... a guy who payed cash to fight a US/British war in Afghanistan against the Soviet Union, suddenly was a bad guy. And US/European TV was broadcasting old Afghanistan movies of the man, to create a "foreigner" for the people to hate. Playing on the psychological conflict of people, trapped between their "hate" and their "shame", they have used it as a means to war on Iraq, and ally Iran.

Make no mistake, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Quatar and Arab Emirates are the real ISIS states in the middle east. They ARE the wahabbist states in the Area. Yet, the US wars on the only state that ISN'T one ... Syria.

The bible tells you, "From their actions will you know them, not from their words". And this applies to the US and it's NATO allies.

They are traitors, they tell you one thing ... and do the opposite. Just take Ukraine as an example ... today there is a war in Donetsk, the Ukranian army is invading the pro-Russian area. But in western media, it's a "Russian invasion". There is not even a question as to "why should Russians invade their own pro-Russian area" ?

The US/NATO tell you one thing, and do the opposite ... and during the peace talks on Ukraine. Russian president Putin was busy in buying Forbes flattery, and thinking of himself as a big cahooney, while at the same time, NATO was arming Ukraine to the teeth, to make them advance on the eastern territories. While all the time, in western media ... saying "Russia is doing it".

It's an old trick, you accuse your enemy of it ... as a result, nobody will believe you of doing it. You take the weapons out of your enemies hands, long before they can use it.

Russia could say anything they want, bug whatever they say is just going to be a lot of whining ...

Russia should get rid of Putin, quickly ... even "physically" if he can't be removed peacefully. And then "do what they gotta do", which is either give up the area, or "bomb NATO to smitherenes". Putin won't do either, and as a result he'll lose Russia itself.

The man is so arrogant and stupid, that he thinks he can rely on China ...

That's his dumbest mistake ever.

Is this a joke? lol. Or is this guy serious???

a reply to: bjarneorn
"Sniff, sniff..... I smell troll.

I think OccamsRazor04 has it correct, you are ranting without coherence. Nobody of a thinking disposition would be dumb enough to assume that the US (or any other super power for that matter) didn't try and manipulate outcomes where it could but there is a hint in that caveat. Nobody can control everything all the time, period. Saying otherwise is just naive and stupid. Actually your arguments remind me of another now very ex member of ATS, esecallum who would go off topic and spout rubbish without any shred of reality or proof. Do everyone a favour and post a coherent argument with either facts, logic or a combination of both. Once the allies hit the beaches in Normandy it was all over for the Third Reich, the only halt was the so called September miracle which had everything to do with the allies over-extending their supply lines and a decent counter attack and nothing to do with German Army superiority. Of course you will now argue different and proceed to tell me how wrong, deluded and a puppet or some such blah blah I am. Insert alternate "superior " version of reality here....