The World You Perceive Does Not Exist

Somewhat sensational title, but really basically true. And in this thread I'm going to focus primarily on its aspect that is basically undeniable, though we don't seem to think about too much. How do we know our world? What do we consider our world to be? We think things 'are' the way we perceive them. Its color. Its smell. The way it feels when we touch it. The noises it makes. What it tastes like. But yet, the object itself contains absolutely none of these qualities. All perception is interpretations by the brain.

The sun is only bright and warm to a conscious mind. A falling tree does not make a sound if noone hears it. Sound only occurs in the presence of ears and a mind. All visual properties only appear to eyes and a mind. And so on with all perceptions. So, we can definitely say that all objects are not the perceptions we have of them. So, if we want to talk about a thing in itself, we must remove all perceptions from our conception. And when you remove all perceptions from your analysis of an object, what remains?

That's very tough to say, which is why we don't think of it. What I have said is basically undeniably true. I'm not even getting into possible implications that go beyond the simple undeniable fact right now. But again, what are objects in and of themselves? Is it just unanswerable? What is the actual reality of things, since we know it cannot be our perceptions? I don't even want to answer that question right now, because perhaps it may be speculative, and regardless I just wanted to make a thread articulating what is basically undeniable, and if really thought upon is very significant. Reality in and of itself is absolutely not your perception of it. I think just acknowledging this could go a long way to dismantling any particular form of dogmatism we may be caught up in.

Here's something I always consider:

Can we truly prove we exist? Can we without a doubt perceive ourselves in the context of the entire universe?

What makes us think we're truly conscious? Is this all a delusion? Are the interactions, stimuli even real?

And I'm not saying it's a case of me thinking everybody but me exists, I just want to ask anyone.


Can we truly prove our consciousness is real? Think about it. We react to stimuli, we have feelings, sensations, thoughts, motives, etc.

Are we here? Is this a shared delusion?

Good, then we don't have to pay taxes or listen to anyone anymore.

The world we see around us is 99.9999% empty space, so yeah, the world technically shouldn't and doesn't exist... yet it does in some way.

In my opinion the world is a holographic projection of our minds and any real substance something has is only an illusion created by the mind.

What happens when you cut a hologram of an apple in half a million times? You get two million whole apples, not halves and halves of halves as you'd expect. Each slice contains the whole form of the original apple, the same goes for us. We are each a slice of the universe containing the entire universe within us. In my opinion this could also be an answer to the multiverse theories, we are each our own parallel universe or slice of the apple experiencing the same reality at once.

What if we're all the same entity, only experiencing itself from infinite unique perspectives? What if our universe is only a thoughtform and not actually real?

I love this kind of stuff, S&F!

This definitely takes a stretch but we're chemical and electrical beings. Perceptions differ depending upon how those systems within are working. iE: depressed person due to chemical depletion perceives the world as gloomy and people as annoying. Then there are the systems without aka social systems. I firmly believe there are electrical signals going on there too - an energy not easily seen (some can see it), but always present. Why we fall into one another's energy is interesting. What would the purpose of that be? Is there a purpose or is it just irresistible due to some unexplained energy source interacting with the internal.

In any case, perceptions are only based on our limited lens. The human lens. Imagine if we could break free from those constraints for just an hour or so. What would the world look like then? Maybe spirit?

a reply to: TheJourney

What if one mind isn't present but another is. how is it possible for the tree to have fallen and make a sound if my perception is the only one and I wasn't there to hear it?

Ok then, can we collectively ignore Ebola away?

Can we pretend things don't exist out of existence if we really try hard?

Can we get rid of Islamic State of Daesh just by denying it's existance and truly believing it?

Can we stop the mystery illness Obolio by saying it doesn't exist?

Enlighten us all so we can turn our current dystopia into utopia.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
What happens when you cut a hologram of an apple in half a million times? You get two million whole apples, not halves and halves of halves as you'd expect. Each slice contains the whole form of the original apple, the same goes for us. We are each a slice of the universe containing the entire universe within us. In my opinion this could also be an answer to the multiverse theories, we are each our own parallel universe or slice of the apple experiencing the same reality at once.

What if we're all the same entity, only experiencing itself from infinite unique perspectives? What if our universe is only a thoughtform and not actually real?

I love this kind of stuff, S&F!

This is basically how I generally look at things. In terms of it being fractal in nature, and us all being ultimately one entity who experiences all the different possible circumstances and ways of being.

And thank you

originally posted by: grandmakdw
Ok then, can we collectively ignore Ebola away?

Can we pretend things don't exist out of existence if we really try hard?

Can we get rid of Islamic State of Daesh just by denying it's existance and truly believing it?

Can we stop the mystery illness Obolio by saying it doesn't exist?

Enlighten us all so we can turn our current dystopia into utopia.

I did not at all say that the world is completely unreal and created by the mind in the OP. I made sure of that. You are clearly projecting your pre-conceived notions based on my title.

Try to understand what I'm saying. Your PERCEPTIONS of the world and its objects are not the world and its objects. Those perceptual qualities only exist because of your sense-organs and mind.

originally posted by: Antipathy17
a reply to: TheJourney

What if one mind isn't present but another is. how is it possible for the tree to have fallen and make a sound if my perception is the only one and I wasn't there to hear it?

Is your perception the only one? I wouldn't claim one way or another.

I like to try and figure my own prerceptions out sometimes. I always wonder how I'd be if I was born without a certain sense. I don't think it's easy to understand until you loose one. And then you will still have the thoughts of how the sense use to be. So really ill never know that life that could have been. It brought me to simply close my eyes while trying to do a few things around the house. I learned A record player is still an easy thing to use and it's interesting not knowing what record would be next.i don't think we can really relate to most other people in this world. We just need to know how to share this world. Cool post op.

a reply to: TheJourney

I believe the sound is there regardless of if it is 'heard.' We simply observe and perceive something that is already happening in the universe. Now, the sound that we actually perceive will be a unique signature to each system, all reflecting the full data set of the event. Just at different points in space and time. It's the effect of waves interacting with another medium. Whether that is pressure waves vibrating our ears, or waves vibrating out through the soil, the process is the same.

Perhaps the addition of awareness, or lack thereof, creates different sets of data within space and time. But, it is all a manifestation of the same event in the end. Our perceptions themselves are a part of 'it' but are all just different lenses looking at the same scene.

a reply to: TheJourney

I completely understand your idea that the only reason anything is thought to exist is because our brain tells us it does based on some senses it has.

A really good read for how you are thinking about the world is a book called God's Debris by Scott Adams. It is very well written and brought up as a thought experiment. I guess as a summary it would be that god himself tried to destroy himself, fully knowing he could reassemble but because maybe he wanted to try something different. The whole universe is his debris after this and we are part of his process of reforming. He is still ever present even if not in his whole. So in a way we all actually don't exist we are just a small part of an infinite amount of reactions and will be long gone before anything comes to light. After all if there is a god it owes us crap and we owe it everything just to be able to assimilate these so called senses into something that seems so absolutely amazing!

God or not this world, within a galaxy, within a universe is F-n amazing!

Atleast it's something different than the ideas people are already battling over. It was written in 2001 I read it years ago and was kinda surprised it didn't get more attention.

Reality Vs Actuality. There is only 'A' actuality Vs an infinite number of realities, or perceptions as you say.

A falling tree, despite being out of ear-shot, still produces a sound wave - energy. Whether or not a sound is sensed (realised), does not affect the actuality of the falling tree and its sound wave.

The world in which we live, I believe is what happens when many consciousnesses are 'squashed' together, in addition to creating several dimensions within them, some physical and some non-physical. Time and space are dimensions, or realities of the physical world, however, I suspect that the actuality is that we all exist simultaneously on the whole illusory timeline (past/present/future) and that the space in which we are contained, is also an illusion.

The dream world is an obvious example of how we are able to have an experience without using any physical senses.
Dreams can be utterly ridiculous and unfamiliar nonsense but what is really being experienced are emotions and thought energy. It's somewhere between these two that reality is manifested. There's little surprise that this is a world of conflict given that every atom can be anything and everything at anytime and all the time.

This is an ancient topic of debate. Nothing really exists Vs The reality of suffering. As we've seen by grandmakdw's post and your reply, emotions are perhaps the most real thing we have as they have the most effect on reality.

I think your title is innacurate. The world and the universe are real in any sense you try to take it. Its observable. We can interact with it in extremely predictable ways. We can take it apart to very small pieces and put it back together in better and more meaningful ways.

Yes. We and the world are real. I think it would be more accurate to say that there is way more of it than we can percieve. When we build machines that allow us to see deeper and different angles of our enviroment, we never seem to find the bottom of the bag. There is way more to it than we can imagine. Our limited senses of perception are dictated by the very specific organs that have developed into our fleshy bodies. We know of plenty other animals on our planet which can percieve the world in ways we have to build machines too see for ourselves. The limits of our flesh are what hold us back and keep us unaware of the seemingly infinite series of events that unfold around us every second of our lives.
Our brains may give us an advantage for solving puzzles, but it is not, and will likely never be adequate enough to understand every aspect of the universe.

How do you know if YOU, are just a virus on a cell (planet earth) and something just put us under a microscope to view whats going on down here on little ole planet earth. Isn't that what we see when we look into a microscope and see the smaller things in life. Hey Look, that bug down there is polluting and killing everything it comes in contact with. Whats wrong with these bugs, they killing the cell that they live on. Isn't that called a CANCER.

originally posted by: Woodcarver
I think your title is innacurate. The world and the universe are real in any sense you try to take it. Its observable.

Again, I am not saying the world is not real. Though my title was somewhat dramatic, I was careful with the wording. The title is 'the world you perceive does not exist.' Everything in the world lacks the perceptual characteristics they seem to have to you. All perceptual characteristics only exist to minds. They do not exist in the objects themselves.

originally posted by: Beyond Creation
Reality Vs Actuality. There is only 'A' actuality Vs an infinite number of realities, or perceptions as you say.

A falling tree, despite being out of ear-shot, still produces a sound wave - energy. Whether or not a sound is sensed (realised), does not affect the actuality of the falling tree and its sound wave.

The world in which we live, I believe is what happens when many consciousnesses are 'squashed' together, in addition to creating several dimensions within them, some physical and some non-physical. Time and space are dimensions, or realities of the physical world, however, I suspect that the actuality is that we all exist simultaneously on the whole illusory timeline (past/present/future) and that the space in which we are contained, is also an illusion.

The dream world is an obvious example of how we are able to have an experience without using any physical senses.
Dreams can be utterly ridiculous and unfamiliar nonsense but what is really being experienced are emotions and thought energy. It's somewhere between these two that reality is manifested. There's little surprise that this is a world of conflict given that every atom can be anything and everything at anytime and all the time.

This is an ancient topic of debate. Nothing really exists Vs The reality of suffering. As we've seen by grandmakdw's post and your reply, emotions are perhaps the most real thing we have as they have the most effect on reality.

What I want to address from your post, is the same point made by serdgiam. You say, a sound wave from the tree falling exists, etc with any given example. That may be true, and my OP does not make a claim one way or another. But, 'sound wave' has now just become words which you are saying 'it is,' rather than a perception. Same game. What is a 'sound wave?' What is the actuality of the situation? It is not anything which you perceive about it. You can then replace it with an abstraction. But it is not your abstraction either. You can't say or imagine anything about the actuality. Or maybe you can. But it definitely has nothing to do with perceptions or words/abstractions.

originally posted by: IBossJekler
a reply to: TheJourney

I completely understand your idea that the only reason anything is thought to exist is because our brain tells us it does based on some senses it has.

A really good read for how you are thinking about the world is a book called God's Debris by Scott Adams. It is very well written and brought up as a thought experiment. I guess as a summary it would be that god himself tried to destroy himself, fully knowing he could reassemble but because maybe he wanted to try something different. The whole universe is his debris after this and we are part of his process of reforming. He is still ever present even if not in his whole. So in a way we all actually don't exist we are just a small part of an infinite amount of reactions and will be long gone before anything comes to light. After all if there is a god it owes us crap and we owe it everything just to be able to assimilate these so called senses into something that seems so absolutely amazing!

God or not this world, within a galaxy, within a universe is F-n amazing!

Atleast it's something different than the ideas people are already battling over. It was written in 2001 I read it years ago and was kinda surprised it didn't get more attention.

That does sound interesting. Kinda similar to my(not just mine...)that we are all expressions of God, exploring and extending the infinite possibilities, the various possible ways God can express 'him'self.

The other realities are scenario's of what happens when your light energy soul comes into contact with that world. It has an effect on that plane of existance and is slightly changed when your light enters into it when you are born. But this all has happened already, you just don't know it yet. Time is slowed down and the light left it behind. Is this a fact? I have no idea, just a guess. Your guess is as good as mine and we can all put the pieces of this puzzle together by figuring this out. Are we crazy yet?