Michael Brown: my opinion

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: WCmutant
I think that you miss my point.
You say that logic dictates that the most likely scenario would involve Mr. Brown doing what he could to avoid trouble.

The fact that he was stealing cigars blows a big hole in that theory.

'Oh, but he thought he could get away with it.'
What else did he think he could get away with?

Does anyone have a photocopy of his college admission forms? I know that Vatterott Educational Centers will not provide anything, but the family surely has his acceptance letter?

Apples and oranges.

Theft from a convenience store is vastly different than charging an armed police officer. I also provided a follow-up example of someone I knew in an arguably better social position than Michael Brown doing the exact same thing - stealing from a store.

I can almost guarantee the person I knew wouldn't have charged a cop if confronted. Stealing from a store and (possibly) charging a cop wielding a gun are mutually exclusive events and decisions that involve VASTLY different risk assessments.

originally posted by: WCmutant

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: WCmutant
I think that you miss my point.
You say that logic dictates that the most likely scenario would involve Mr. Brown doing what he could to avoid trouble.

The fact that he was stealing cigars blows a big hole in that theory.

'Oh, but he thought he could get away with it.'
What else did he think he could get away with?

Does anyone have a photocopy of his college admission forms? I know that Vatterott Educational Centers will not provide anything, but the family surely has his acceptance letter?

Apples and oranges.

Theft from a convenience store is vastly different than charging an armed police officer. I also provided a follow-up example of someone I knew in an arguably better social position than Michael Brown doing the exact same thing - stealing from a store.

I can almost guarantee the person I knew wouldn't have charged a cop if confronted. Stealing from a store and (possibly) charging a cop wielding a gun are mutually exclusive events and decisions that involve VASTLY different risk assessments.

He was a thief.
Just because we only have proof that he stole cigars doesn't mean that he was limited to that.
If you think that choosing to be a thief was a wise choice for him to make, that's just great... for you.
My parents didn't raise a thief, and I don't condone it or find it to be an admirable trait.

This is entirely a speculative story, taking many of the eyewitness reports into account, as well as the cop's alleged story from the 3rd hand radio interview with "Josie". Also, it takes into account that I was a personal witness to a kid shot dead in the street in front of my own home as a boy some 30+ years ago. That shooting also followed a store robbery down the street. In that case, the store owner chased the kid out and into the street. Then shot him with a shotgun, twice (once in the back and once in the front after he turned). I saw this killing, first-hand at the age of about 13 from my front door. I too was faced with a similar dilemma, but chose to pursue additional education and got out of that hole, even at the chiding and ridicule of some of my street friends.

Taking this all into account, I wonder could this be a case of an on-the-spot decision to commit suicide-by-cop by Brown?

Please hear me out first, and read to the end before replying.

Known items:
1. He was on a road to go to a college (or some form of post-high-school education) - GOOD (in our eyes) and BAD (can be seen as a sell-out to the street thugs)
2. He lived in a very difficult/bad area (I sort of understand some of the though processes as explained I also grew up in a similar area)
3. The probability is very high that it was him on the store video and he ripped off some cigars from the local convenience store (one who may have seen him in there before)
4. He shoved the store clerk as seen in the video on his way out of the store
5. He and his friend were walking down the middle of the street nearby the store (one questions why in the middle of the street, could it be bravado over the robbery they just got away with?)
6. A police officer stops them and (allegedly) asks them to get out of the middle of the street
7. The officer is injured in some way (this is one of the fuzzy conflicting aspects of this story). Let's imagine his injury to his eye socket was from some altercation with Brown
8. Brown is now a distance away from the officer and told to stop (another fuzzy aspect of the story so I'll skip the "how he got there")
9. At some point, for reasons unknown for sure, 6 shots are fired, and Brown is now lying dead in the street a much shorter distance from the officer than before the shots are fired

SPECULATION:
Now, looking at #1-4, I have known kids I grew up with that had all the potential to raise themselves out of that life, and were pressured by family to do so.....however, they were equally pressured by friends and other people in the community to be the tough guy (being that big, kinda sets that expectation in itself usually). Could he have been internally conflicted and it was that day he made his decision to stay in the community and boost his rep by stealing those cigars. A "light crime" to be sure, but one that demonstrates to the street that he is not a sell-out.

As for #5-7, perhaps feeling proud of his actions in stealing the cigars and successfully intimidating that clerk, he was strutting down the center of the street. Could he have been "basking in that glory" in some way? Then the officer appears and stops them. Not knowing if Wilson (the cop) knows what he just did, he panics and has a physical altercation with the officer and the officer gets injured as a result. Brown realizes he is now truly screwed beyond belief, much more than the petty theft and strong arm action with the clerk. Brown and his friend run from the officer, leaving him injured in the cruiser.

Which brings us to #8-9, the cop, rises out of the cruiser, injured, and gives chase, removing his sidearm at the same time. The cop at this point has made a decision might have to kill the perpetrator (still not knowing for sure who he is). I say this because typical firearms training drills into you that you only un-holster your sidearm if you intend to use it and prepared to kill whatever you get in the sights, otherwise it stays holstered and you "cover" it with your hand in preparation. At this point, the officer stops and fires one shot, striking the fleeing Brown in the right forearm from behind.

ASIDE: I say this after seeing an interview with one of the examiners that did the 2nd autopsy describing that wound in particular. When asked by the interviewer if it was from the front or back, he explains that it could be either. He demonstrates that the shot entered from the back of the forearm....but does not guarantee it was fired from behind. He does this by raising his arm as if in a surrender position, exposing the back of his forearm to the front. SO, this wound could have meant he WAS hit from behind while running, or if he was facing the officer with hands raised.

Brown turns around, and is now CONVINCED the cop knows hat he did, at the store....and has another decision on his hands. His fight-or-flight response kicks in. He has all but trashed his chance at school now. He has disappointed those pushing him in that direction. It will all come out now. In this altered state of mind, one option appears to him to "save face" by being killed by the cop and becoming famous on the street. In the spur of the moment, he makes a fateful decision to begin approaching the cop. Seeing this, the cop's own fight-or-flight response kicks in, and he fires at what he decides is an approaching assailant that has shown he means bodily harm to him. Brown, not stopping (since he is a big guy with adrenaline in full flow) continues toward the cop in what must have looked threatening. The cop fires repeatedly as the assailant continues forward toward him.

NOTE: This could explain the typical barrel drift/rise pattern of the consecutive shots rising up toward the head area.

Brown, knowing he will definitely be dead if he stops, now puts his head down and rushes the cop to tackle him (think of a football player that leans over at the waist, head down and arms extended to tackle the opponent with the ball). As he does this his arms raise up and could be interpreted by the bystanders as a sort-of surrender position.

ASIDE: Does anyone know if Brown played football at all? Being that big, he would have made a great defensive tackle. If so, that training could explain this aspect of the speculative story.

Being struck in the shoulder area, he drops to his knees, still having full forward momentum toward the cop. Out of reflex, Brown looks up as he falls. At this point the cop fires again striking Brown in the right eye socket, the bullet deflecting downward toward his jawbone, out, and into his right clavicle. Brown's head drops as a natural reaction to this shot as he continues to fall forward. The cop fires one final shot striking Brown in the top of the head....killing him. Brown drops completely to the pavement.

CONCLUSION:
As I said, this is all speculation, based upon all the witness testimony I've heard and read, the basic layout of the area, the economic state of the area, and watching the type of reactions that have occurred since.

It, to me, seems a plausible account, and can explain some of the conflicting stories and recollections. As we all know, eyewitness testimony is fair at best, and when observed by so many, with totally different recollections, my guess is the truth is somewhere between all the recollections. Taking a small bit here, another bit from there, add in my own personal experience.

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan
He was only 18 for 2 or 3 months. I would hope that he didn't generate a big rap sheet in that amount of time.
Previous to that, he was a minor, so we really don't know about that.

That is a fair point.

a reply to: cloudsstar

Actually, the robbery might have ... from Brown's perspective. If you are Michael Brown and you just got down committing a robbery and cop starts to question you, what is your first assumption going to be? That the cop knows.

So, no, the cop didn't know, but Michael Brown did, and it may have helped color his response making him aggressive and violent in his reaction to the cop where he might not otherwise have been, getting him into trouble.

originally posted by: Habit4ming
The whole thing is a mess, mostly because the story keeps changing. I had read initially that Wilson (before he was identified) was a black policeman. Anyway, if Brown did give up as reported, then Wilson had no right to take his life, even if Brown is (ALLEGEDLY) a thug. If Brown was rushing Wilson (a different version), then I still think Wilson should have tried to down him by shooting him in the leg(s). I did concede on another site that with adrenalin pumping, etc., it may not have crossed Wilson's mind to try to down Brown with leg(s) shots--Brown was a big person, and if that "Brown rushing Wilson' version is true, obviously the arm shots weren't enough to down this 'giant'!

On another site today, it's now being reported that Wilson did know about the robbery when he first told them to get off the street. Just what is the truth, here?

Anyway, the police have no one but themselves to blame for people not trusting them or their official stories. They have proven time and time again that they are LIARS! And while I realize that there are good policemen, it's time for the good ones to correct/snitch on/demand the replacement of the bad ones, imo!

I have a brother-in-law who is a corrections officer, and even with regular range practice, dude is a lousy shot. This thing you see in the movies with officers heroically shooting arms and legs or pretty much any part of the body they want because they're the frickin' cops man! ...? It's a load of bull. They get trained just like any civilian who has a gun - center mass. I'm frankly surprised this guy managed to hit him in the arm and head so many times between all the misses without at least one center mass shot.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic
a reply to: chiefsmom

That has been mentioned several times in threads I've read. But it doesn't really mean anything. It's possible Brown reacted because of that. It's possible he ran and turned around and got filled with lead. It's possible He "bum-rushed" the cop. It's possible that just about anything happened.

So, knowing that you've just gotten done committing a robbery that this cop might be there to stop you for would have absolutely NO bearing on how you behave in that situation?

Really?

originally posted by: ketsuko
So, knowing that you've just gotten done committing a robbery that this cop might be there to stop you for would have absolutely NO bearing on how you behave in that situation?

Really?

I didn't say that at all. And how I would behave (or you would behave) in a situation doesn't mean everyone would behave in the same way.

Too many assumptions...

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: HomerinNC

INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY

The same can be said for Officer Wilson, correct?

Absolutely! I am firmly on the fence here. I can be pretty certain that NONE if us knows what happened. But people are trying to find Brown guilty of something. Same as with Trayvon Martin.

But Michael Brown is NOT on trial here. If anyone is going to trial, it's Wilson. And he, too, is innocent until proven guilty.

But knowing what frame of mind Brown might have been in is essential to helping understand why he might have reacted as he did. If he expected to be treated as a robbery suspect, then it changes how things look.

If someone later uncovers that the cop was a regular poster on a Christian Identity forum ... well that would change things, too.

Both would be relevant evidence because they insight into what might have happened in the absence of actual video evidence particularly when so many of the eyewitness accounts clash directly.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: ketsuko
So, knowing that you've just gotten done committing a robbery that this cop might be there to stop you for would have absolutely NO bearing on how you behave in that situation?

Really?

I didn't say that at all. And how I would behave (or you would behave) in a situation doesn't mean everyone would behave in the same way.

Too many assumptions...

No more so than the assumptions being made about the cop and why he did what he did.