Israel media war - on ATS as well??? Are we infilitrated?

Isreal makes no excuses that it hires students to fight any negative information against Israel so it is safe to assume some might have accounts here on ATS but people will make their own minds up after seeing the destruction in Gaza.

I am nolt even sure if Hamas is fireing anything at Isreal and if they are then the intercepts by Iron doom would be all over the news but i do know that the IDF in the past have been caught fireing rockets to blame it on the Muslims in Gaza so maybe thats all we are seeing.

Every jew must know in the back of their minds that they will be paying a prices for the murders in Gaza and the only question is how much and when

originally posted by: _Del_
Yes, in fact, some of us are old enough to remember WAAAY back to the nineties when they added their name to the list of groups strapping bombs to their chests and blowing themselves up in Israeli markets and buses... Right there with the children and everything...

I am old enough to remember that and I am not sure where in my post you got idea that I am Hamas supporter. I am against all acts of terrorism, but your post makes me wonder, are you as well?

originally posted by: _Del_
Israel has shown that it is willing to trade land for peace, when peace is viable. They controlled the whole of the Sinai for almost 20 years before returning it to Egypt in exchange for normalized relations (the same Egyptians who want no part of the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip and refuse to open their gates and border crossings with them also).

Israel is willing to trade unlawfully occupied land for peace? Let's for second just think how absurd that sentence sound, not to mention rest of the post.

originally posted by: _Del_You can try to spin this as Israeli racists bent on genocide, but the fact is there have always been Arab members sitting on the Knesset and one out of five Israelis are Arab. They are the Arab residents (and their descendants) who didn't abandon the land and make war on Israel when the first two-state solution was offered. They seem to be getting along just fine. Meanwhile, despite the best and evilest efforts to implement "genocide" on the Palestinians, that population is growing by leaps and bounds. If Israelis are by and large genocidal maniacs, then they are clearly not mass murderers of the most efficient ilk...

Which isn't to say Israel has been blameless. Their response has often been heavy-handed. I'm not sure I would make the same decisions about how aggressively they've pursued their campaigns. Having said that, you don't get many nations willing to put the effort and risk into telling people via leaflets and phone calls that their area is going to come under attack. War is a nasty business. More distantly, you can point to the Zionists terrorists from the 20's-40's. It was just as wrong in then as it is now.

Finally, something we both agree on - terrorism is terrorism, be it 80, 90 years ago, or 10-20 days ago. Destruction of Gaza IMHO, and whole situation in Gaza and occupied territory is considered as war crime, according to Geneva's convention. But that does not give right to Hamas or any other organization to kill or terrorize Israelis either. Killing has to stop on both sides.

originally posted by: _Del_
But today this starts and ends with the authorities, such as they are, in Gaza. Hamas needs to stop its campaign of terror, and be responsible for security -- which means enforcing security and stopping terrorism from groups they don't have control over (wink, wink, nudge, nudge). Same applies for Fatah in the West Bank, who is at least making the right noises at the moment.

Thing is that with devastation like last month in Gaza, Israel is just helping Hamas to get more support in Gaza. Show of power works with normal people, but in this case it works opposite. Now, this is just my opinion, as from next paragraph you quoted.

originally posted by: _Del_
The only way for this to work is for responsible parties to rein in the crazies. Israel is not going to sit back and take it. They have a very pragmatic approach. "If you won't stop the attacks, we will." I'm not sure I blame them, even if there are incidents I do not approve of. But there has to be security for Israel for a true two-state solution.

How many hospitals and schools could Hamas have built with the tens of millions of dollars worth of concrete and other supplies/labor involved in building the tunnels from Gaza into Israel so that militants could attack Israeli soliders and farmers? If it was so easy to fix all these problems, why did the PA reject Israel's MDA offers for blood units as late as a month ago :/ Why doesn't Israel get any credit for not shutting off the power bill, despite the PA being in arrears to the tune of $525 million? 300 trucks with humanitarian aid (mostly food and medical supplies) went through the gates yesterday. Did you hear that in the news? I'm skeptical that it will buy them even the full 72 hours of the cease-fire, but maybe it will.

You missed the point - it has to be Israel that helps them, so that future generation don't look at Israel as enemy and source of all bad. What do you think thousands of kids who lived in Gaza past month - how they will look at Israel? Nothing ever done positive in their life came from Israel, and in my opinion, Israel has to change its policy and offer those kids and families help - have them, Palestinians then fight Hamas or any terrorist away. But this will work only if occupied territory is returned and people of Palestine are given all their rights and recognized by Israel. But, according to current news, there is slim chance of any of this happening, and as just showed in one of Israel prime ministers video here, why return 100% of land, if you can keep 98%?

Problem is that extremist appear to be on power on both sides - I can't see nothing that we have not already seen from current situation, unfortunately.

a reply to: Hoosierdaddy71

Absolute Rubbish!

The Hiroshima and Nagasaki Atomic bomb drops were a test and warning to Russia at the time to back off.

Thanks to policymakers and military leaders of the era who have subsequently told their stories, we know today what transpired. We can also thank Professor Gar Alperovitz of the University of Maryland for a stellar academic career dedicated to analyzing American policy in this regard. Quite simply, President Truman dropped those bombs on a defeated Japan to tell the Russians and the world to back off. We had two bombs and we were going to use them. In a typically cavalier fashion, Admiral William F. Halsey, Jr., Commander, U.S. Third Fleet remarked, “It was a mistake to ever drop [the bomb]. . .they had this toy and they wanted to try it out, so they dropped it. .”

Hiroshima and Nagasaki- The Atomic Bomb Lie

Truman was a War Criminal. So was Eisenhower for his Death Camps in Germany and Roosevelt for planning the Jap attack on Pearl Harbour.

Now we have a new War Criminal. Benjamin Netanyahu which detailed in another thread his wishes to hide War Crimes committed by Israel in his latest murder spree:

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu asked US lawmakers Wednesday to help fend off Palestinian claims that his country engaged in “war crimes” while defending itself against attacks from Gaza, one top lawmaker told The Post.

Netanyahu asked the delegation to help Israel stay out of the International Criminal Court, where its attacks on Gaza could come under scrutiny — even while responding to Hamas rockets fired at Israeli urban centers.

Palestinian leaders are getting ready to join the ICC, and met with officials in the Hague recently to discuss the implications of joining.

“The prime minister asked us to work together to ensure that this strategy of going to the ICC does not succeed,” Rep. Israel told the Post by phone from Tel Aviv.

Netanyahu “wants the US to use all the tools that we have at our disposal to, number one, make sure the world knows that war crimes were not committed by Israel, they were committed by Hamas. And that Israel should not be held do a double standard,” the congressman said.

Netanyahu asks US to help hide Israeli War Crimes

Israel has become the new Nazi Germany! And the US is helping them!

Edit: I posted an image that I didn't know it was fake.
I'm sorry. info

originally posted by: SuperFrog
Israel is willing to trade unlawfully occupied land for peace? Let's for second just think how absurd that sentence sound, not to mention rest of the post.

Fact is they had it. Noone was going to take it from them. The US, by the way, was against it. And I didn't say I supported the act. Yet, if they were land-hungry expansionists bent on occupying more and more territory, why would they cede it to Egypt? Because they are very practical people and would rather not have the hassle and have to secure a border with Egypt on a war-footing. They occupied southern Lebanon when the PLO controlled it for the same reason. When Hezbollah started curbing incursions into Israel, Israel left Lebanon. The same I am sure applies to Gaza and the West Bank. I don't think they will ever cede the Golan Heights, however.

Destruction of Gaza IMHO, and whole situation in Gaza and occupied territory is considered as war crime, according to Geneva's convention.

I don't read the convention the same way. None of the articles prohibit destruction of private property in military operations. Anymore than bombing Dresden or London (depending on which side of the pond one might have been flying from) was a war crime. I do find the RAF's policy of firebombing cities at the end of the war morally questionable. I do not think it constitutes a war crime.

But that does not give right to Hamas or any other organization to kill or terrorize Israelis either. Killing has to stop on both sides.

We've found some common ground

Thing is that with devastation like last month in Gaza, Israel is just helping Hamas to get more support in Gaza. Show of power works with normal people, but in this case it works opposite. Now, this is just my opinion, as from next paragraph you quoted.

I'm not sure I agree, but I see where you're coming from. And I absolutely do think there have been operations that were at the very least unwise -- especially politically.

You missed the point - it has to be Israel that helps them, so that future generation don't look at Israel as enemy and source of all bad.

I just gave several examples of Israel helping them that are happening right now. How much help is actually getting to the masses? Israel opened a field hospital for civilians, and Hamas told people not to use it. The tried to send blood and Hamas rejected it. They offered to send blood only from Arab donors and Hamas rejected it. They keep the power and water running even though the PA has not paid their bill (over half a billion dollars). It is not, and will seemingly never, be enough to win over Palestinians -- to quote you it "works with normal people, but in this case it works opposite."

But this will work only if occupied territory is returned and people of Palestine are given all their rights and recognized by Israel.

And this will only happen if a legitimate and efficient government is formed by Palestinians -- most specifically one who is able to secure and enforce common laws of decency the land within its borders (like preventing people from wantonly murdering civilians and randomly firing rockets). The current government is more interested in spending aid money and using building materials to build tunnels into Israel to send operatives there to kill and kidnap people and actively provoking Israel. What good is this doing for the Palestinian people?

Problem is that extremist appear to be on power on both sides - I can't see nothing that we have not already seen from current situation, unfortunately.

Again, we have some agreement, though I see one side as much more "extreme" than the other. I suspect we'd disagree on that as well.

a reply to: _Del_

Well,
there is some common ground, and I am glad we agree on some basic things, starting with that killing of civilians has to stop.

I am well aware of situation in Palestine before this conflict, and I am not even trying to get selective news, just by listening NPR radio on daily bases. Sure, they might be bit BIASED (I really don't see a reason for that, and I have not find any evidence for that), but some stories are horrific and I always wondered how those kids who live there, mainly in Palestine even are normal. (Army going from door to door in middle of night taking picture of kids as part of ops, or another one with person being fired upon because they mistaken him for protestor for well that they took from Palestinians.. etc.) I can provide links for those stories, as I have already done multiple times over past couple of days, if you can't find them.

Now, as you bring valid point - water - something essential for living - I remember just recently reading that among companies that decided not to do business with Israel because of Israel politic, one of them being from Netherlands (talking from memory, I might be wrong), because they found that water that company is exploiting is coming from west bank, and than the same water has been sold to Palestinians?! ( www.jpost.com... 34597 )

As for Geneva Convention and this being clear war crime, you know that convention is from 1949, 4 years after second world war, and as result of exactly crimes from earlier wars, including bombing of civilian targets and great suffering of many in those wars?!

Check Article 147

' Wilful killing. '
' Inhuman treatment. '
' Wilfully causing great suffering. '
' Unlawful confinement. '
' The extensive destruction and appropriation of property not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly '.
' Destruction. '

Just to mention few.

originally posted by: SuperFrog

Check Article 147
"not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly '.

The axis of all those things you listed is "not justified by military necessity". It's extremely muddy water.

a reply to: ParasuvO


Rofl,

The Tunnels are to "get out"?

So they dug behind enemy lines to escape rather than in the direction of Egypt?

What a strategy! Why didn't the Black people trying to escape the south think of that? Don't tunnel North... tunnel right into a confederate city, that would make for a much better escape...

They should rewrite shawshank redemption so Andy tunnels his way into the cafeteria...

a reply to: Flesh699


Cool post, Washington didn't just keep slaves he also hated Jews....

Neat references there too... Martin Luther, Hell of a guy.

How funny is this? A list of derps from the 17th century when Christianity still resembled modern Islam lol A Christianity that at the time enslaved a people, committed genocide for real against a continent

Thank you for proving the point that no religion on a crusade for ideological dominance will tolerate the Jews lol, lol, lol

a reply to: criticalhit

And who sold and owned most of those slaves? Unless census records are anti-semetic as well. Just cause jews brainwashed most people and own history, at least we can see what they are doing today, thanks to the web (for now anyways).

illegal occupation of palestine
war crimes against children
secret sterilization programs for blacks
segregation in schools
aid blockage
criminal safe haven for kinsmen
unacknowledged nukes
and bibi's proposed plan for dna standards

a reply to: Hilux1996

Ahhh, so you are Palestinian. I can understand how you feel.

a reply to: Arpad

How many people actually said they support hamas? Not many, most support Palestinians and there is a agenda to make sure it doesn't come across that way.

Most people dont know what they are talking about... most people have never been to Gaza or Israel or the mid-east!

originally posted by: combatmaster
a reply to: Arpad

How many people actually said they support hamas? Not many, most support Palestinians and there is a agenda to make sure it doesn't come across that way.

Most people dont know what they are talking about... most people have never been to Gaza or Israel or the mid-east!

And those same people are unwillingly footing the bill and the equipment for it. If they don't want our opinion find another dope.

originally posted by: Arpad
a reply to: criticalhit

And who sold and owned most of those slaves? Unless census records are anti-semetic as well. Just cause jews brainwashed most people and own history, at least we can see what they are doing today, thanks to the web (for now anyways).

illegal occupation of palestine
war crimes against children
secret sterilization programs for blacks
segregation in schools
aid blockage
criminal safe haven for kinsmen
unacknowledged nukes
and bibi's proposed plan for dna standards

okay

i'll give you the actual record

In 1830 there were only 120 Jews among the 45,000 slaveholders owning twenty or more slaves and only twenty Jews among the 12,000 slaveholders owning fifty or more slaves.

The bigoted crap Farakhan spouted was dis-proven a long time ago dude, you should try reading real books that are verified

There's only one reason that this kind of tripe gets "put out there" it's the same for Islam as it once was for Christianity, let me say it in BOLD so it's clear:

HE WHO CONTROLS THE WORD OF GOD CONTROLS THE MASSES

Any time one of the Giant "Monoism's decides to rule the world they go after the Jews because with them gone... there is no one that could contest the complete BS of some "guy" getting to speak for god... get rid of the Jews, become God...

what makes it the most ridiculous is that any body even believes that crap anyway...

a reply to: Gianfar

I'm Scottish actually. I'm just not so easily swayed with Lies and Zionist Propaganda repeated by the Lamestream Media!

originally posted by: criticalhit
a reply to: ParasuvO

Rofl,

The Tunnels are to "get out"?

So they dug behind enemy lines to escape rather than in the direction of Egypt?

Funny you should say that .. because some folks elsewhere ain't laughing.

I have translated a link for you, not to change your mind or anything, just to think about it for a minute.

It starts something like this..

Witnesses of a siege, understand the most, why a tunnel means Life.
That is why the story about destroying the tunnels in order to prevent weapon flow is harder to sell to the citizens of Sarajevo than to the rest of Europe

read the rest of the story

originally posted by: _Del_

The axis of all those things you listed is "not justified by military necessity". It's extremely muddy water.

If it ever happens in front of international war court, what do you think, would they consider all of those civilian casualties justified by military necessity? Please be honest.

Have you ever followed any of proceedings? We have quite few from Balkan wars in 90's, as well some from Africa's genocides from mid 90's.

en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: SuperFrog

I don't think the conduct has at all been comparable to the conduct in the Balkans or Rwanda. I don't know what a court would find, as particularly the Balkans case, was highly politicized.

originally posted by: Hilux1996
a reply to: Gianfar

I'm Scottish actually. I'm just not so easily swayed with Lies and Zionist Propaganda repeated by the Lamestream Media!

well then, its an honor to meet you - hear, hear!

originally posted by: criticalhit
So they dug behind enemy lines to escape rather than in the direction of Egypt?

Mossad probably dug the tunnels themselves.