To The Catholics of ATS

a reply to: JokerThe1st

Text1. There is something that has always puzzled me about Catholicism and a lot of other faiths that use The Bible, this is that essentially you all worship Israel's god and by his own admission the 'Jews' are his chosen people which means any of you who are not Jewish are looked upon as Goyim (the nations not of Israel).

I got this far and had to remark before I forgot to answer. When you say that any of the nations (peoples) who are not Jewish are looked upon as Goyim what exactly are you saying? The reason I ask is that do you think that a nation cannot be as honored by God as God honored the Nation Israel? If you are then how do you explain that in the new covenant of Jesus all nations of peoples that accept Him are born into one spirit?

1Co_12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

I realize that under the covenant of Moses that the Hebrews were the only ones who accepted the God of Abram, as a nation, but does this apply as of now? If you say that this only applies to a nation then look at Israel today which is almost all atheists. Would God accept Israel of today as He did in the days of Moses? Maybe what I am really asking is -- Is there a Goyim today as there was under the old covenant?

a reply to: adjensen

Text Again, Lucifer is a Protestant mistake, he's not a fallen angel. As for where Satan the fallen angel stuff came from, I always assumed that it was from Jewish folklore that is not included in the Hebrew Bible, but I guess that I don't know, sorry.

Actually the fallen angels theology was taught along with Torah and is verified in the dead sea scrolls in the book of Enoch.
Enoch was not canonized but was taught by early Christianity and was eventually ignored till the dead sea discovery. Today it is revived and well known once again.

Lucifer is a protestant theology, just as you have said, and even so is argued with a lot of different ideas. Some Jews do not believe there is an evil entity such as Lucifer or Satan either one. They also do not believe that any angel can sin and there are still others who do not believe in an afterlife. So they are just as divided as others are divided.

a reply to: Seede

I understand what you are saying here and i guess this is where the bone of contention comes in about The New Testament. I know Catholicism itself uses both Old and New but essentially the God of New Testament has been 'redefined'.

I guess a good question would be should these 2 collections be contained together in one book?

From Israel's point of view i would hazard a guess the whole Goyim thing still stands strong.

This is where the Bible as a whole comes a little unstuck for me 'The Lord God of Israel' is still Israel's god, The more loving God of new testament is 'The Creators' message. There is in my personal opinion more than 1 'God' in The Bible and the 'Words' of there 'Messages' are what shows this.
I do believe in 'One' Unified Creator that is all,the source,light,love but The Bible is full of 'Messages' that are of 'Negative' taint to put it bluntly.
This is why there is so much confusion about The Books overall 'Message' because differing entity's/beings/gods/messages/changelings/epiphany's/enlightenment's have all been lumped into one 'God'

From the perspective of trying to unify mankind i can see why this was done, but on many levels it has caused much confusion,war and bigotry.
I also understand the duality of beings/gods/man but The Creator being of complete unity does not directly exercise extreme's those are the co-creators who experience for The Creator as such.

I hope this response kind of deals with your points, i can be a little 'Off' at times
On the other hand i could be completely wrong or wrong and right, life is full of surprises

a reply to: JokerThe1st

I guess a good question would be should these 2 collections be contained together in one book?

We include the Hebrew Bible (the Old Testament) because we believe that it significantly predicts and foreshadows the coming of Christ. In addition, it is the basis for Christianity, which is, technically, just a sect of Judaism.

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:16-17 NIV)

What scripture is Paul talking about here? Well, he's obviously not talking about the Gospels or the rest of the New Testament, because it didn't yet exist, so he has to be talking about the Hebrew Bible.

a reply to: adjensen

The below is where the problem comes in,

Judaism generally views Jesus as one of a number of false messiahs who have appeared throughout history.[1] Jesus is viewed as having been the most influential, and consequently the most damaging, of all false messiahs

Judaism has never accepted any of the claimed fulfillments of prophecy that Christianity attributes to Jesus. Judaism also forbids the worship of a person as a form of idolatry, since the central belief of Judaism is the absolute unity and singularity of God

The belief that Jesus is God, the Son of God, or a person of the Trinity, is incompatible with Jewish theology

In Judaism, the idea of God as a duality or trinity is heretical — it is even considered by some polytheistic.[8] According to Judaic beliefs, the Torah rules out a trinitarian God in Deuteronomy (6:4): "Hear Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one."

: Wikipedia

so basically Christians/Catholic church believe the Jewish messiah has been and gone already, while the Jewish themselves don't. This is what i find difficult, there own religion is wrong according to the Catholic church and Christians in general

a reply to: JokerThe1st

so basically Christians/Catholic church believe the Jewish messiah has been and gone already, while the Jewish themselves don't.

Well, of course, that's why they are Jews, not Christians. But the Catholic church was founded by Jewish Christians, though the church was Jewish in nature for only the first couple of decades, and within two hundred years, it was considered heretical to be a Jewish Christian (well, not to be one, but to be a practicing Jew who believed in Christ.)

there own religion is wrong according to the Catholic church and Christians in general

Following the Law is wrong, because that's what Christ's sacrifice freed us from. But since Vatican II, at least, the Catholic church has changed its view of the Jewish people. You may find this article from that council interesting: Nostra Aetate (Declaration on the Relation of the Church with Non-Christian Religions)

That position, of course, only reflects the Catholic church -- the Protestant denominations generally take a different slant.

a reply to: adjensen

thank you for the response on this one i thought i may have killed the thread with that last comment, I think i am beginning to get my head around it.

thank you for the link will have a look

a reply to: JokerThe1st

thank you for the response on this one i thought i may have killed the thread with that last comment

You're welcome. Sorry that I didn't get to it sooner, but I was volunteering at a community bike ride all day yesterday, came home and went into the city to see Paul McCartney last night (awesome show!) and was at church and otherwise busy most of today.

A long way of saying "keep the questions coming for as long as you're learning."

a reply to: adjensen

Ah while it is on my mind what does The Eye of Providence represent within the church ?

A long way of saying "keep the questions coming for as long as you're learning.

Of course and hopefully anyone else who decides to view this thread, my intentions are for greater understanding amongst as many as possible, our world is fast falling and times are calling for some unity of mankind.

a reply to: JokerThe1st

Ah while it is on my mind what does The Eye of Providence represent within the church ?

Not a clue.

As I recall it to be a symbol within Freemasonry, probably nothing. The Catholic church takes a very dim view of Freemasonry and automatically excommunicates any church member who joins them. While the Masons say that they are not anti-Catholic, the belief of the church is that they are, hence the policy.

a reply to: adjensen

you sure about that ?

a reply to: JokerThe1st

Like I said, I had no clue.

However, I found this:

Why is the All Seeing Eye found in some European Medieval Churches?, the most salient points being:

Catholic use of the “eye” of providence was used at least as early as 8th century A.D., 900 years before the Freemasons.

The Catholic Church has not used it as a symbol in its churches for a long time. The Church has basically abandoned the symbol when the masons started using it.

The Catholic church has consistently stated that Catholicism and Freemasonry are incompatible and it is forbidden for Catholics to be a member of a masonic lodge.

Given that it was a Catholic symbol hundreds of years before the Masons existed, it seems impossible that they "borrowed" the image from them.

a reply to: JokerThe1st

Oh, I'll also add that the guy in the first picture is an Orthodox Catholic, not Catholic, priest, which would be a good indication that the symbol originated in the eight century, since it is highly unlikely that both Catholic and Orthodox Catholic would adopt the same thing after 1054AD.

The words in the last picture are German, but not German as it is today. I found a site that says that the words are "God sees everything," though that would be "Gott sieht alles", so I'd guess that it is a very old form of German (or Dutch, I suppose,) again demonstrating that the symbol was in use a long time ago.

I have no idea about the guy with the hat, though (that's Cardinal Norberto Rivera of Mexico.) Obviously that's of recent manufacture, so maybe he didn't get the memo, lol. But he does also wear a normal mitre:

a reply to: adjensen

Like I said, I had no clue.

yea sorry i was just showing rather than goading, I asked the same question in the Masons thread regarding this symbol.

I find this symbol an extremely important one not for the fact it has been used by Freemasons or the catholic church, but because it is being used on a daily basis in Corporations,Television,Music Industry,Films and it has become rooted in peoples consciousness.
This is by design and it obviously means a lot more than people are willing to go into. This is partly why i brought it up.

The words in the last picture are German, but not German as it is today.

Either that or a local dialect, the women is meant to be Mary i believe.

The two below the Mexican dude are Aachen Cathedral.