To The Catholics of ATS

Dear Catholic's

This thread will be much like the one i did for Freemasonry, i shall ask some questions in the hope for some honest and tolerant discussion on the subject of Catholicism.
My knowledge of The Bible and Roman Catholics is rusty at times so please bear with me if i make any glaring mistakes.
I may end up asking some questions which make you feel you have to defend yourselves please if possible try to refrain from this as it can make discourse more difficult, i am not attacking your faith or your church but i am going to try and understand it a little better with your help if possible.

I will of course be asking as usual with my threads for everyone to behave in a decent and respectful manner. Why am i doing this thread you may ask? well i kind of said i might and i decided to do so in the object of fairness.
Well lets get things started

Here we go

1. There is something that has always puzzled me about Catholicism and a lot of other faiths that use The Bible, this is that essentially you all worship Israel's god and by his own admission the 'Jews' are his chosen people which means any of you who are not Jewish are looked upon as Goyim (the nations not of Israel).
I know this is Old Testament but it is the basis for The Bible. Are we really to believe The Creator has favorite's, I can understand that the Jewish god would favour his own people, I just do not fully understand why the rest of the world is so approving ?

2.There are many versions of The Bible all with slight variations.how do you know which version is correct and why?
and which version do you all uphold and why?

3.As The Bible is made up of Old and New Testament which is more important if either to the Catholic church ?

4.The Vatican and Pope are both highly respected in Catholicism, I understand the pope gains his authority from 'God' (correct me if i am wrong) How can we know this and why does the pope and the Vatican get such a high status ?
I understand the process is really down to men, but why such confidence these people are in direct communication with 'god' and have everyone's best interest at heart ?

5.Regarding Christ, his messages were generally about forgiveness,love,kindness,understanding etc.... why do you think the church in the past has resorted to witch hunt's on what is 'officially' termed Pagan belief systems. This show's the exact opposite of being kind or understanding and to be honest still happens today in some rather undesirable locations in the world.
This i find very hard to understand about a lot of religious groups, this ability to judge,condemn and slaughter there way to power.
How can you explain this ?

6.The Vatican has a vast library within it's walls which is kept away from public view completely, The information and wealth of knowledge being held could be hugely helpful to humanity and the people of the earth. We should at least get a chance to decide for ourselves. Is this really acceptable from what is meant to be The Catholic religious centre ?

7.Do Catholics view the Bible as the literal word of 'god' and everything said is how it is ? or is it a more allegorical type of view where the story's have layers of meaning and understanding contained within ?

OK so that's it for now everyone, look forward to your responses

a reply to: JokerThe1st
1. Christians are Jews by adoption.
2. Catholics use the Catholic bible. Which is the New American Standard, I think, with the Apocrypha thrown in.
3. The new testament. Without Christ. There would be no adoption.
4. Because they say so. Kind of like the bible is the word of god, because it says it is.
5. Christ's message was repent, or suffer the consequences. All that stuff about forgiveness and love is for after you get saved.
6. We can't have the heathens putting their unclean paws all over holy documents, now can we?
7. A mix of both, actually. With a little creative interpretation thrown in. Okay, okay. A lot then.

a reply to: JokerThe1st

1. www.catholic.com...

2. www.catholic.com...

3. Still looking, good question, may tie into #2.

4. www.catholic.com...

5. www.catholic.com... not defensible, IMO

6. Another GREAT question, but I believe it has to do with THE FORBIDDEN FRUIT, and the Church's attempts to stop forbidden knowledge, reaffirm purity, Hogwash if you ask me, Cat's already out of the bag, cannot put the toothpaste back into the tube.

7. www.catholic.com...

I hope this helps. I do not support this as THE official Catholic stance, but it is a reference to start with.

a reply to: JokerThe1st

It's a tough one...

1) The Israelites were promised a piece of land down the track but with that also if they did not uphold the Laws of their God the land would be taken just as quick as they received it. So we could say God gave people the land, maybe it was a human who made the promise but we will never know, all we know is the conditions for inheriting that land..

2) The Bible is changing all the time..

3) The New Testament should be more important to the Catholic Church. From the views of some Christians here, they don't even believe the Old Testament God is the same God of the New Testament. I think that's funny but people can believe what they want I guess.

4) The Pope does not get his authority from God, he gets his Authority from a group of mortals who cast a vote... The Vatican is actually contrary to the teachings in the New Testament.

5) Because the Church are not who they say they are... Wolf in Sheep's clothing comes to mind.

6) They likely hide all that stuff because if the world read most of what is hidden, their institution would come crashing to the ground. It's hidden for a reason.

7) It shouldn't be taken literally in some parts but literal in others. Some things cannot be interpreted literally because they are usually symbolizing something else.

originally posted by: JokerThe1st
Dear Catholic's

This thread will be much like the one i did for Freemasonry, i shall ask some questions in the hope for some honest and tolerant discussion on the subject of Catholicism.
My knowledge of The Bible and Roman Catholics is rusty at times so please bear with me if i make any glaring mistakes.
I may end up asking some questions which make you feel you have to defend yourselves please if possible try to refrain from this as it can make discourse more difficult, i am not attacking your faith or your church but i am going to try and understand it a little better with your help if possible.

I will of course be asking as usual with my threads for everyone to behave in a decent and respectful manner. Why am i doing this thread you may ask? well i kind of said i might and i decided to do so in the object of fairness.
Well lets get things started

Here we go

1. There is something that has always puzzled me about Catholicism and a lot of other faiths that use The Bible, this is that essentially you all worship Israel's god and by his own admission the 'Jews' are his chosen people which means any of you who are not Jewish are looked upon as Goyim (the nations not of Israel).
I know this is Old Testament but it is the basis for The Bible. Are we really to believe The Creator has favorite's, I can understand that the Jewish god would favour his own people, I just do not fully understand why the rest of the world is so approving ?

2.There are many versions of The Bible all with slight variations.how do you know which version is correct and why?
and which version do you all uphold and why?

3.As The Bible is made up of Old and New Testament which is more important if either to the Catholic church ?

4.The Vatican and Pope are both highly respected in Catholicism, I understand the pope gains his authority from 'God' (correct me if i am wrong) How can we know this and why does the pope and the Vatican get such a high status ?
I understand the process is really down to men, but why such confidence these people are in direct communication with 'god' and have everyone's best interest at heart ?

5.Regarding Christ, his messages were generally about forgiveness,love,kindness,understanding etc.... why do you think the church in the past has resorted to witch hunt's on what is 'officially' termed Pagan belief systems. This show's the exact opposite of being kind or understanding and to be honest still happens today in some rather undesirable locations in the world.
This i find very hard to understand about a lot of religious groups, this ability to judge,condemn and slaughter there way to power.
How can you explain this ?

6.The Vatican has a vast library within it's walls which is kept away from public view completely, The information and wealth of knowledge being held could be hugely helpful to humanity and the people of the earth. We should at least get a chance to decide for ourselves. Is this really acceptable from what is meant to be The Catholic religious centre ?

7.Do Catholics view the Bible as the literal word of 'god' and everything said is how it is ? or is it a more allegorical type of view where the story's have layers of meaning and understanding contained within ?

OK so that's it for now everyone, look forward to your responses

Raised a Catholic, went to Catholic school for 13 years, abandoned the Church completely in college, returned in a very limited way by this time in my life as a young adult, intend to raise my kids Catholic. Just things to keep in mind as I answer:

1)Jesus brought a new covenant with God. At least according to St. Paul, this covenant extended to Jews and non-Jews alike.

2) The Council of Nicea (I think) decided what would be canonical, what would be apocryphal (cool to read but not official), and what would be heretical (no read, you understand!). There were literally hundreds of gospels and books that early Christians read and quarreled over. Part of the decision was based on the age of the writings and how close they were to the original teachings of Jesus and St Paul. With a few exceptions, most secular academics agree they did a decent job (although they got the order of the gospels wrong).

3) The New Testament is more important as it brought a new covenant (above). The inclusion of the Old Testament maintains the "Judeo" part of Judeo-Christianity and provides a convenient way to support the harsher "wrath of God" aspects of the religion when Jesus got too "New -agey."

4)The Vatican and Pope are respected as institutions, but most Catholiccs, at least in America, are more concerned with their local parishes and communities. We may acknowledge that the Vatican is anti-birth control but we also don't want to get our wives preggo every 10 months, either. Practicality wins on that one.

5) There is nothing uniquely Christian about "witch hunts". Catholicism, like all authoritarian systems(which is what it was for centuries) has had some negative authoritarian moments- the Inquisition, for example. There is nothing uniquely religious about "witch hunts" either. What I am coming to understand better later in life is that the forgiveness, tolerance, and love that Jesus exuded does have a great deal of meaning and value, even if you don't totally buy into the Resurrection and other supernatural aspects.

6) While I certainly believe that the Vatican's archives are full of very interesting material for a history nerd like me, I doubt there is anything concerning century spanning conspiracies, Jesus' secret marriage to Mary Magdalen, or anything out there like that. As an archives veteran (not at the Vatican), most of what is in there would probably bore the crap out of your average ATS-er.

7)Catholics, like most Christians, are not fundamentalists. Some things recounted in the Bible are dogmatic. Some things are dogma that aren't in the Bible (Mary's Virginity). The Old Testament is more allegorical. Books like Revelation are symbolic.

Hope that helps.

originally posted by: JokerThe1st
Are we really to believe The Creator has favorite's, I can understand that the Jewish god would favour his own people, I just do not fully understand why the rest of the world is so approving ?

I am not a Catholic, but this particular issue is not specifically Catholic.
I see the progress of events in this way; it was always the Biblical God's intention to make himself known to the whole world, but since the chosen method was telling some people who would then tell others, he had to start somewhere.
The Old Testament people of Israel was the place where he chose to start.
The book of Acts represents the moment when he began spreading the message beyond that starting point ("The times of ignorance God overlooked, biut now he commands men everywhere to repent").
The friction between Jews and Christians from that time onwards comes from the indignant refusal of the Jews to accept the idea that they were only a starting point.
The idea that the Jews remain the unique chosen people of God is a Jewish position, not a Christian one.
Some modern Christians, from confusion of thought, have adopted the Jewish view of themselves, but I think you will find that the Catholic members of ATS will disown it.

a reply to: JokerThe1st

Don't forget the Vatican also decides who deserves to be considered a saint. Where do they get such authority to decide this? Surely there are other people in this world who could be considered saints but didn't have the notoriety or didn't call attention to themselves.

Catholics also pray to various saints. They all have their own "special" powers who intercede for God to help when someone is in need, for example; Saint Anthony is the patron saint for lost articles. Mary is also considered a divine entity who intercedes on behalf of God. I find this directly conflicts with the 1st commandment which states "I am the Lord thy God, Thou shalt have no other Gods before me." When they pray to these entities, they are doing just that.

This is why I question all religions who claim to have the God given right to decide who is worthy and who isn't. When they claim to know who will be condemned to hell, when they claim "God has spoken to them," when they judge people ("Those without sin, cast the first stone"), when they justify killing in the name of God ("I shall not kill"),
shows the hypocrisy in their belief system and the desire to control their followers in the name of God.

You can also question the 10 commandments considering there are a lot more sins that can be added to that list.

a reply to: DarknStormy

He said a 'question for Catholics' .... you aren't Catholic. (muslim or muslim leanings). And your responses were incorrect from a Catholic perspective - which he's asking for.

originally posted by: WeRpeons
Don't forget the Vatican also decides who deserves to be considered a saint. Where do they get such authority to decide this?

Jesus. Matthew 16:18-19. A 'Saint' is someone who is in Heaven. Miracles that are obtained through the intercession of a saint is considered proof that the person is in heaven. The person on earth asks the person in heaven to ask God for a miracle. If the person wasn't in heaven, then they couldn't ask God for the miracle. Therefore, that's considered proof. And the Catholic church does NOT say that only those with the title 'saint' are in heaven. They are saying that there is proof that those people are in heaven but also that heaven is full of others that we will never have earthly proof about.

Catholics also pray to various saints. I find this directly conflicts with the 1st commandment which states "I am the Lord thy God, Thou shalt have no other Gods before me." When they pray to these entities, they are doing just that.

Wrong. Do you ask others to pray to God for you? It's the same thing. Catholics ask the saints to pray to God for them. No different. They are NOT saying the saints are God. They are saying the saints are in heaven close to God and can pray for us all just as much as someone here on Earth can pray, except those in Heaven have prayers to God that are more pure and without Earthly baggage.

When they claim to know who will be condemned to hell,

The Catholic church has no 'who's who in Hell' list. It won't even pronounce officially that Judas is in Hell. It says there are clues in the bible that point that way, but that they can't say for sure and proclaim who is there and who is not.

originally posted by: JokerThe1st
we really to believe The Creator has favorite's, I can understand that the Jewish god would favour his own people, I just do not fully understand why the rest of the world is so approving ?

God chose the Jews to bring salvation (Jesus) to the world. That is why they are 'Gods Chosen'. Not because they are favorites. The Jews missed that and think it's something else.

2.There are many versions of The Bible all with slight variations.how do you know which version is correct and why?
and which version do you all uphold and why?

Answer here - which bibles do Catholics use and why

3.As The Bible is made up of Old and New Testament which is more important if either to the Catholic church ?

Me personally - the New Testament. The Church? I've never heard it say one is more important than the other. There is a tendency for Catholics to dismiss the Old Testament (I do), but the Church says not to because it's important. Church statement here .

4. I understand the pope gains his authority from 'God' (correct me if i am wrong) How can we know this and why does the pope and the Vatican get such a high status ?

Jesus. Matthew 16:18-19. Jesus gave full authority to Peter, the head of His Church. And we see Peter installing apostolic succession in the New Testament and then with the early church fathers. The biblical support for apostolic succession is found HERE . So the primacy of Peter from Jesus is passed down and since Jesus gave Peter full authority for His church on Earth, then we know Heaven acknowledges apostolic succession.

5.Regarding Christ, his messages were generally about forgiveness,love,kindness,understanding etc.... why do you think the church in the past has resorted to witch hunt's on what is 'officially' termed Pagan belief systems.

The Church is evangelical. Jesus said to go out and preach the word. And it isn't 'forgiveness, love, kindness, or understanding' to allow someone to be in error. The church believes paganism to be error. So it is an act of kindness to bring the truth of Jesus to them. Unfortunately, human arrogance entered into the process and many people were hurt during the evangelical process in the past.

6.The Vatican has a vast library within it's walls which is kept away from public view completely, The information and wealth of knowledge being held could be hugely helpful to humanity and the people of the earth. We should at least get a chance to decide for ourselves. Is this really acceptable from what is meant to be The Catholic religious centre ?

You are GUESSING that there are a bunch of world secrets in the vaults. That's the fodder of anti-Catholic conspiracists and there is no evidence to support that. However, if the Catholic church does have information in it's vaults of world significance, it's THEIR information. They have a legal right to keep it to themselves. I'd rather they didn't, but it would be theirs to do with as they wish.

7.Do Catholics view the Bible as the literal word of 'god' and everything said is how it is ?

The bible is the inspired Word of God. It has myth, allegory, folklore, history, deep knowledge, prophecy, and the Word of God Himself through Jesus Christ. There are 73 books in the Catholic bible. Each has it's own flavor and is to be read in the manner in which it was written. It is impossible to point to the bible and say 'this is entirely the literal word of God'.

a reply to: pierregustavetoutant

What I am coming to understand better later in life is that the forgiveness, tolerance, and love that Jesus exuded does have a great deal of meaning and value, even if you don't totally buy into the Resurrection and other supernatural aspects.

That. ^^^

That is what the entire world needs to get a grip on. Stop the violence, it's asinine.


We now return you to your regular scheduled programming:

originally posted by: FlyersFan
a reply to: DarknStormy

He said a 'question for Catholics' .... you aren't Catholic. (muslim or muslim leanings). And your responses were incorrect from a Catholic perspective - which he's asking for.

I was Baptised under the Roman Catholic Church. There, that makes me a Catholic. Are You?

originally posted by: DarknStormy
I was Baptised under the Roman Catholic Church. There, that makes me a Catholic. Are You?

I am a lapsed Catholic (48 years as a conservative Catholic) who previously spent 20 of those years in Third Orders (Franciscan and Carmelite). You? According to the Catholic church .. once a Catholic always a Catholic. But you really identify with Muslim, right? You've said the Catholic church is evil and that Islam makes the most sense to you. The only thing you posted from the Catholic perspective was #7. Everything else was from a Muslim perspective or a non-Catholic perspective. The OP wanted the Catholic perspective answer ... not a muslimized person who was baptized Catholic as a baby. Ya' know?

He said 'dear Catholics'. Are you now going to identify yourself in some way as Catholic??

a reply to: FlyersFan

Don't give me that crap, I am well aware that the New Testament is a hoax that was implemented by the Roman's as a form of Population obedience. Everything in the New Testament has simply been taken from the Old Testament and re-worded by Roman Caesar's to give people like you the bs story that you know today.

Go check out Flavius Josephus (1st century historian)... Your Messiah came from the Imagination of Roman Emperors... Though I agree that Jesus was a real person, I don't agree with the crap in the New Testament. It was used to the advantage of the Roman Empire by Roman Emperors.

a reply to: DarknStormy
Like I said ... not the reply from the Catholic perspective that the OP was looking for. He wanted to know what Catholics think and why ... not what a wanna-be Muslim who hates the Catholic church thinks.

Thank you for proving my point.

ETA ....

originally posted by: DarknStormy
Don't give me that crap,

Not one speck of crap was in my post. Everything was dead on accurate. You asked if I was Catholic. I gave my background. And I stated very clearly and correctly that the information you gave was NOT from a Catholic church perspective but instead was from your anti-Catholic pro-Muslim one. You want to think that way? Fine. But don't say it's the Catholic church perspective in answer to his questions. It clearly isn't.

a reply to: FlyersFan

'Although it's been recognised by Christian scholars for centuries that the prophesies of Jesus appear to be fulfilled by what Josephus wrote about in the First Jewish-Roman war, I was seeing dozens more.

'What seems to have eluded many scholars is that the sequence of events and locations of Jesus ministry are more or less the same as the sequence of events and locations of the military campaign of [Emperor] Titus Flavius as described by Josephus.'

However, according to Encyclopaedia Britannica, Titus Flavius was born in 39 AD and died in 81 AD. Estimates suggest Jesus died before 39 AD – 30 AD according to the encyclopaedia. This was a number of years prior to Titus Flavius’s military campaign. Mr Atwill continued: 'This is clear evidence of a deliberately constructed pattern.

Good for you

a reply to: FlyersFan

Why would I care about your background? From what I have seen you write here, you don't have much faith, you need facts to determine your faith and facts to discredit faith. On ya.

a reply to: FlyersFan

He said a 'question for Catholics' .... you aren't Catholic. (muslim or muslim leanings). And your responses were incorrect from a Catholic perspective - which he's asking for.

While this is true, i want to make clear non-Catholics are more than welcome to ask questions and comment. But yes generally i would like the Catholics to do the answering. As was the same with the Masons thread, I am after the perspectives of The people themselves to help raise understanding of each others beliefs.
For me this is an exercise of learning.

At the same time i found DarknStormy's reply an interesting one.

a reply to: DarknStormy
Again ... you are welcome to believe that, but that's NOT what the OP was asking. He wanted to know what the Catholic perspective was. So once again, you have proven my point that your answers are NOT what the Catholic church believes.

originally posted by: DarknStormy
Why would I care about your background? .

Dude .. get real .. YOU ASKED.
Here's the quote from page one of this thread -

originally posted by: DarknStormy
I was Baptised under the Roman Catholic Church. There, that makes me a Catholic. Are You?

So I answered.
Do you always forget what you just said so quickly?
You might want to go get that checked out ...