Separation of Church and State

Origins of Separation of Church and State

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

~First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America

The phrase “separation of church and state” does not appear in the first amendment, nor does it appear in any of the foundational documents in American history. The actual phrase is widely used, and incorrectly, by those who would push for the abolition of any religious practices within any body of government.

We do not want in America what we had in Great Britain. We don’t want one denomination running the nation. We will not all be Catholics, or Anglicans, or any other single denomination. We do want God’s principles, but we don’t want one denomination running the nation.

~Congressional Records of our American founders, June 7th – September 25th, 1789

As we can see from the quote above, our forefathers were in complete understanding that God’s principles were desired within our government, but the purpose of the first amendment was to prohibit an institutionalized church, to which all must attend.

So where did the phrase “separation between church and state” come from?

In the year 1801, in Connecticut, the Danbury Baptist Association heard a rumor that the government was planning on making the Congregationalist denomination the official denomination of the nation. However Thomas Jefferson wrote the Danbury Baptists and told them, ”the First Amendment has erected a wall of separation between church and state”.
So the first true quotation of the aforementioned saying was simply telling a religious organization that there would be no nationalized denomination – not that the practices of religion would be prohibited within the body of government, nor the expression thereof.

"Had the people (the Founding Fathers), during the Revolution, had a suspicion of any attempt to war against Christianity, that Revolution would have been strangled in its cradle. At the time of the adoption of the Constitution and the amendments, the universal sentiment was that Christianity should be encouraged, but not any one sect (denomination)…. In this age, there is no substitute for Christianity…. That was the religion of the founders of the republic, and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants."

~House Report from Judiciary Committees of House and Senate, May 27th, 1854. Senate Report reflected the same ideals

"The great, vital, and conservative element in our system is the believe of our people in the pure doctrines and divine truths of the Gospel of Jesus Christ."

~Judiciary Committee Declaration, one month after original House Report

As we can see from the quotes above, directly taken from our founding fathers and documents, the separation between church and state was never intended as a religious divide. Nor was it intended to drive a wedge between religion and governance.

The purpose for this post was to guide the ignorant, and bring to light the flawed logic of those who would use the aforementioned concept against the TRUE foundation of Christianity being the true recognized, and universal religion, of the United States of America.

The purpose is to correct the lies stating our forefathers were not Christians.

God-Bless. Let truth reign. Let ignorance be denied.

Christianity isn't the true religion of America. America the country is secular. We have an amalgamation of MANY different religions and denominations of each one. The only way to fairly represent them is by being secular. Get over it.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
Christianity isn't the true religion of America. America the country is secular. We have an amalgamation of MANY different religions and denominations of each one. The only way to fairly represent them is by being secular. Get over it.

Did you bother to read the post - or just skim?

Because this post is about the foundation, and original intent behind American ideas. Your ideas of what America is now is completely off topic - as this post is about the foundation, and origin of America.

So if you wish to comment about the post above, please reference it in regards to modern ideas about secular American ideas vs the foundation of this nation.

Your use of the word "is" represents present time. But this post is about history - and bringing out the lies secularists push to further their agenda. It is bringing truth to the forward.

a reply to: MentorsRiddle

Really? Then why is this one of the last paragraphs in your thread?

The purpose for this post was to guide the ignorant, and bring to light the flawed logic of those who would use the aforementioned concept against the TRUE foundation of Christianity being the true recognized, and universal religion, of the United States of America.

Because that reads to me like you are speaking about America past and present.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: MentorsRiddle

Really? Then why is this one of the last paragraphs in your thread?

The purpose for this post was to guide the ignorant, and bring to light the flawed logic of those who would use the aforementioned concept against the TRUE foundation of Christianity being the true recognized, and universal religion, of the United States of America.

Because that reads to me like you are speaking about America past and present.

Do you see the word foundation, which is a word that signifies a beginning, or origin? That is a word that represents past - not present.

This was a political history lesson - nothing more.

a reply to: MentorsRiddle

If that is the case, you probably need to go back to grammar school. Your word, "foundation", is sandwiched between the word "TRUE" and the phrase "of Christianity". That reads as so: the root of Christianity is the true recognized religion of the US.

If you wanted to say what you are suggesting then you should have worded it as so: The religious foundation of the US was Christianity. That pulls the adjective "foundation" away from Christianity as well as makes the sentence past tense to indicate you are speaking about the past and not the present.

originally posted by: MentorsRiddle
The purpose is to correct the lies stating our forefathers were not Christians.

Many of them were Deists, including Jefferson who did not believe in the Divinity of Christ.

They were of the Age of Enlightenment and understood that, even if they were Christian, they should not allow their personal beliefs to intercede into the operation of the government.

I wrote a thread similar to yours with some sources linking to many of the Founders beliefs.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: MentorsRiddle

If that is the case, you probably need to go back to grammar school. Your word, "foundation", is sandwiched between the word "TRUE" and the phrase "of Christianity". That reads as so: the root of Christianity is the true recognized religion of the US.

That is because you are taking the post out of context - the entire post is about the foundation of American ideas, and those of our forefathers.

To displace an entire frame of reference, repeated throughout an entire post, because of one sentence is on you.

As I stated above, and will again, this is a history lesson. Nothing more. Nothing less.

I appreciate your history lesson. Don't be dismayed by those that hate the very idea of God. It is trendy right now.

a reply to: MentorsRiddle

No it isn't out of context. The way you wrote that sentence changes the ENTIRE meaning of the thread. The way you worded suggests that you gave a bunch of evidence for why America is a Christian nation and not secular then presented a conclusion (the sentence we are speaking about) that suggests that America is STILL a Christian nation.

a reply to: MentorsRiddle

Where are your links to the Congressional records that you're using as evidence. I'm pretty sure that these are transcripts of debates and opinions, not congressional rulings.

Have you seen the Treaty of Tripoli?

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Mohammedan] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
November 4, 1796

a reply to: Krazysh0t
to me it kind of means that the gov't should be neutral when it comes to religion..
ya know they can't hinder them but they can't prop any one up!

a reply to: MentorsRiddle

Just curious...

What is the underlying reason for the "History Lesson" and why should we believe your view of History
Rather than these guys.



www.thepublicdiscourse.com...

Put the 10 commandments back on the court house lawns...I don't care

Where did you get your quotes? You didn't leave a link...

originally posted by: MentorsRiddle
The purpose for this post was to guide the ignorant, and bring to light the flawed logic of those who would use the aforementioned concept against the TRUE foundation of Christianity being the true recognized, and universal religion, of the United States of America.

Well, golly. Thanks so much. And here, I thought the US accepted all religions and didn't have ONE true religion!

The purpose is to correct the lies stating our forefathers were not Christians.

Our founding fathers were mostly deists, not Christians. Stating that they were Christians is the lie.

originally posted by: MentorsRiddle
We do want God’s principles, but we don’t want one denomination running the nation.

Seriously, what are God's principles?

Humanity? Common sense? Give and take in a society?

Man could take a few lessons from some "lower form" animal social structures.

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: Krazysh0t
to me it kind of means that the gov't should be neutral when it comes to religion..
ya know they can't hinder them but they can't prop any one up!

Well yes, that is exactly what it means. No one religion should be given preferential treatment or be discriminated against. The best way to do this is by being secular since there are WAY too many religions in the world to represent them all fairly. Therefore the best way to do so would be to not represent any of them. That way every religion is guaranteed the same level of representation. None.

a reply to: MentorsRiddle

I think its a great idea intermingling Church and State. Look how wonderful and peaceful the middle east is.

Not to worry they just picked the wrong religion we got the right one.

a reply to: Krazysh0t
True there were many religions at the start. And those that didn't believe. Which all we supposed to have rights. But the American gov is christian. Ad does practice it within. Congress has a preacher there and prays. Do all religions pray before the meetings start. NO. I don't believe in that magical fantasy world of religion. Can't they believe and pray about which they wish to pray on their own at home or in their church without forcing the rest of the group to listen to their propaganda of their cult.Would they allow other cults to have prayers there to? NO! they would fight to the end to exclude them. That is the problem with allowing it. This is extreme, but here is a valid example. Would they all devil worshipers to pray there as well? NO!! But they should be allowed just as many rights. And most would not like to see them. So lets not see you either in the gov in our face. Go ahead believe and worship how you wish with out affecting those who do not wish to be affected. You don't like your beliefs to be attacked by other than that would be a good start. Like i said i don't believe in any of it and that includes Satanic religions. But I'm so offended by it being in my face all the time that i feel like i should post satanic crap there just to show that it should be stifled some, by offending others as well. Then when they try to stop that it may regulate all. You know full well the regions would be offended by that. When is see posts about religion i usually point out some facts that make them think about if their religions is valid, users usually get mad. But they post to promote it, and i have just as much right. If you wouldn't put it in my face i wouldn't get in yours. Keep your beliefs but keep them to yourself or like minded willing participants.

originally posted by: Annee
Common sense?

Speaking of Common Sense, Thomas Paine, who was one of the most vociferous advocates for our right to be free and independent, was not a Christain.

We are a melting pot of many cultures. We've opened the door to various sects of not only christianity but also buddhist, hindu, muslim, and whatever else. Oh ya and let's not forget about those first religions that were practiced by the native americans!
We did not make any requirement that they change their religion when we allowed them to come we just want able bodies to do the hard work we didn't want to do. These people and their descendents are just as much american as we are regardless of the religion they practice..
And the differences that are between the various christian sects although they might not seem like much to today they were once worth fighting wars over! When the first europeans came here with their many different beliefs it just might be that they viewed each other like the christain, jew and muslim veiw each other today!

But some how they managed to pull themselves together and form a nation!

I don't think anybody will say that our elected politicians shouldn't consider what they belief is morally right when voting on issues but the main driving force shouldn't be their religious beliefs but rather reason! If you need to bring religion into your justification for something you are off the mark!