Let's talk about CHAOS

This topic could go just about anywhere in relation to chaos - science, psychology, metaphysics ... I'd expect some comments about politicians and religion to slip in as well. I'm not really setting parameters. I'd like to see where it goes and what people here have to contribute on the topic of Chaos in all it's forms - positive or negative forms.



Chaos ... defined as behavior so unpredictable as to appear random.
cha·os noun complete disorder and confusion.

synonyms: disorder, disarray, disorganization, confusion, mayhem, bedlam, pandemonium, havoc, turmoil, tumult, commotion, disruption, upheaval, uproar, maelstrom;

antonyms: order

The Chaos symbol of disorder, confusion, turmoil, disruption.


Is chaos a natural order for the universe, or is order the natural way? Organically I suppose both could be argued. Is order stronger than chaos, or is chaos stronger? The universe started in chaos but settled and evolved into an order. This is temporary because in the end it will all collapse and start again with a burst creating chaos again (thats a belief at this time).

And what about metaphysically and psychologically? It appears that humanity is descending into chaos more than it is ascending to order and peace. Is this just a natural dip in the evolution of humanity, or Is there perhaps a Chaos entity moving things in that direction? Chaos is the exact opposite of what the spiritual masters say is a good thing ... peace and harmony and 'the middle way', etc. So is there a demonic Chaos entity ... or is Chaos the 'proof' or the results of a demonic entity working on humanity to go against sound God and peace? Or is is Chaos on Earth between humans happening because humans in general are pretty stupid and we will naturally de-evolve in that direction.

Chaos brings wars and death and destruction. It brings misunderstandings and error and ignorance. Chaos brings change. Sometimes good, but usually not. There are people who celebrate chaos and want to bring it raining down upon humanity. They think it would be a good thing for massive chaos to happen in order to bring about change ... assumably change in a direction that they wish humanity to go.

One last thing - There are games - computer and online and board games - that celebrate chaos. They have four Pagan Chaos Gods that are worshipped. Is there a conspiracy in regards to the Chaos games to get people thinking in that direction ... or is this just a case of a game company seeing a money making opportunity so they are grabbing it?

Some Chaos Quotes -

There is an immutable conflict at work in life and in business, a constant battle between peace and chaos. Neither can be mastered, but both can be influenced. How you go about that is the key to success. - Philip Knight

Bob Dylan called Chaos an entity - a 'he' - I accept chaos, I'm not sure whether it accepts me." - Bob Dylan

There is a good principle which created order, light, and man, and an evil principle which created chaos, darkness, and woman.
- Pythagoras

In the midst of movement and chaos, keep stillness inside of you. - Deepak Chopra

We focus so much on our differences, and that is creating, I think, a lot of chaos and negativity and bullying in the world. And I think if everybody focused on what we all have in common - which is - we all want to be happy. - Ellen DeGeneres

Chaos is a name for any order that produces confusion in our minds. - George Santayana

It is only a step from boredom to disillusionment, which leads naturally to self-pity, which in turn ends in chaos. - Manly Hall

Like I said ... This is just a general thread about Chaos. The majority of humans view Chaos as bad and to be avoided. Is healthy 'order' better than Chaos? Or is Chaos, even though its' negative, sometimes necessary in order to show us that the order is needed and good? Is there a demonic type Chaos entity or are humans to totally blame for the chaos on the planet or is it a combination. Feel free to post anything you want about CHAOS ... within T&C of course. Lets talk about chaos ....

Separate post for those more inclined toward the scientific and not the metaphysical ... I'm not going to even remotely pretend to understand a lot of what Chaos Theory talks about. I get a general idea, but I"m not up enough on any of this to make a go of a discussion. So I'm posting it separately ...

Chaos Theory

Chaos theory is a field of study in mathematics, with applications in several disciplines including meteorology, sociology, physics, engineering, economics, biology, and philosophy. Chaos theory studies the behavior of dynamical systems that are highly sensitive to initial conditions—a paradigm popularly referred to as the butterfly effect. Small differences in initial conditions (such as those due to rounding errors in numerical computation) yield widely diverging outcomes for such dynamical systems, rendering long-term prediction practically impossible with current knowledge.[1] This happens even though these systems are deterministic, meaning that their future behavior is fully determined by their initial conditions, with no random elements involved.

For those who wish to discuss Chaos theory ... would you mind putting something together in easy-to-read terms for ATSers who aren't up on physics and math like you all are? That would be great. Thanks.

Chaos = unbalanced Energy w/ potential to become balanced...
CREATOR Creations in their maturing phases may exist in conscious chaos, but as they mature balance is made and chaos omitted.

Hiya, good thread!
S/F

In my brain, this is hardwired:
All things tend toward Chaos.

I don't know who said it or when or where it came from, but it's a quip I've always remembered. (Einstein, maybe?)

(ETA: Aha. Newton's Second Law of Thermodynamics.
Yeah, I looked it up......)

so - I watch and notice it, and in particular it manifests in my life in a physical way - the house gets cleaned up (by me). It never stays that way. Dirt, dust, soiled clothing and linens, things not where they should be, it's pretty amazing really...

I also notice it in the garden/yard and the ever-changing shape of the untamed green areas in my part of the world - in general, it stays "the same" - but the trees grow or die, the vines choke them and take over, intrusive species move in and shove other things out.

While touring my mom's beautiful garden the other day, she kept leaning over and pulling up little weeds.
"Ugh," she muttered, "I tell you, in five years the house would be GONE if I didn't keep up with this yard."

And she's right.
Sometimes it feels futile indeed....a house unoccupied starts to deteriorate. It requires constant maintenance. Likewise with roads, and the 'infrastucture' on which we all depend. Any given day a catastrophe could occur (although I keep hoping for some severe enough weather that one of the enormous shade trees will fall on my house so I can cash in on the insurance - and have it restored).

It's just part of life - that things don't stay the same. So perhaps that is the definition of chaos = the only constant thing is change.

We are a fragile species. More thoughts as the thread progresses. Thanks for the interesting topic!!


in terms of the world/humanity at large, yes, it's chaos...disorder. Disorderly conduct (and I myself have a rather unruly disposition, and problems with 'authority')...
I grew up in the 60s and 70s - "Question Authority" is another hardwired quip.

ETA Also:
I think it's important to realize that from our perspective, as social creatures who need routine and structure to a certain degree, the idea of "chaos" is totally subjective.

Is chaos a natural order for the universe, or is order the natural way? Organically I suppose both could be argued. Is order stronger than chaos, or is chaos stronger?

The second law of thermodynamics says chaos is stronger

The entropy of an isolated system never decreases, because isolated systems always decay toward thermodynamic equilibrium, a state with maximum entropy.

Entropy = disorder in a way all systems tends to chaos, because they have less potential energy this way they are more stable.

Chaos = stability who knew

originally posted by: Ophiuchus 13
Chaos = unbalanced Energy w/ potential to become balanced...
CREATOR Creations in their maturing phases may exist in conscious chaos, but as they mature balance is made and chaos omitted.

On the contrary, chaos is what allows us to think in a nonlinear and unpredictable way, if our mind was perfectly ordered everything we do would be perfectly predictable. Being predictable does not make you mature or intelligent. Without chaos we would never produce original ideas and original works of art, without chaos we would all think in the same way, without chaos we would never be spontaneous and random, without chaos we would have no "soul".

I am chaos. I am the substance from which your artists and scientists build rhythms. I am the spirit with which your children and clowns laugh in happy anarchy. I am chaos. I am alive, and I tell you that you are free.

~ Excerpt from Principia Discordia

originally posted by: Indigent
The second law of thermodynamics says chaos is stronger

The entropy of an isolated system never decreases, because isolated systems always decay toward thermodynamic equilibrium, a state with maximum entropy.

Well actually some things in the universe do become increasingly ordered as time goes on. And I know this sort of contradicts what I just said in my last post, but the life on this planet follows a trend of becoming more ordered as time passes. Our biological make up becomes more and more complex, the structures we build take the random placement of dirt and other materials and turn them into intricately ordered buildings. Looking at the surface of Earth from space you can see just how ordered our societies are becoming. I guess in some way Ophiuchus 13 does have a point, but the point I made in my last post is still valid, I don't think these two concepts have to be mutually exclusive.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

Does Life On Earth Violate the Second Law of Thermodynamics?

First earth is not an isolated system, its an open system that gets energy from the sun all the time, second law is define to isolated systems. all that organization you see is taking energy, expending it and in return storing potential energy.

If you remove the sun the planet will dissipate the energy and all that order will collapse to the least energetic configuration possible = disorder.
_____

if you consider an individual life form its not an isolated system either, you take energy and you dissipate energy, us do this by eating and
exhaling CO2 and plants by taking sun energy and converting CO2 into O2

I think chaos and order are the same things. It's just fluctuation of matter that is very unpredictable and predictable at the same time.

a reply to: Indigent

There really is no such thing as an "isolated system", the Earth isn't an isolated system but the solar system is a semi-isolated system because there's not much energy coming into it, probably more energy going out of it due to the sun. But the solar system is increasing in order. The planets formed out of a bunch of randomly dispersed rocks coming together, and eventually all the planets will fall into the sun, and a solar system with a star and nothing else is far more orderly than one with a bunch of rocks revolving around the star. But then eventually I guess the sun will explode and randomly disperse a bunch of energy all over the place.

But then after that, given enough time, everything will fall into a black hole, and then given even more time those black holes will evaporate, and the only thing left will be electromagnetic radiation, eventually reaching the point where the universe enters perfect thermal equilibrium, which is an extremely ordered state. So in reality the universe is heading towards order, even if there are periods of increased entropy. This is why some scientists believe the universe will start over and reach a new "aeon" when it reaches perfect thermal equilibrium, because the big bang started in a perfectly ordered state with qualities which can be defined as a state of thermal equilibrium.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

No, the universe is an isolated state and when all the energy disipates and there is equilibrion is not a highly ordered state, its a complete ramdom state where entropy is maximum.

What you saying is like you drop a glass jar and all the tiny pieces that ends are highly ordered, when you had the jar it was full of potential energy due to the ordered state you force to create the geometry, when its broken the disorder that is created has no potential energy and a maximun entropy making it more stable that the ordered jar

This is a really good thread. As someone that is into discordia I can appreciate many of the things being discussed.

Will come back and read more when I get the chance.

originally posted by: Indigent
a reply to: ChaoticOrder

No, the universe is an isolated state and when all the energy disipates and there is equilibrion is not a highly ordered state, its a complete ramdom state where entropy is maximum.

Well the universe may be infinite, and that isn't exactly isolated in some sense. Secondly, thermal equilibrium is an extremely ordered state.

In a system in thermal equilibrium for itself, the temperature within the system is spatially and temporally uniform.

en.wikipedia.org...

A universe in that state of uniformity is far more ordered than our universe right now. You can pick any point in the universe, without having previously measured that point, and predict with a high degree of accuracy the state of that point.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

No even if the universe is infinite all the energy in the universe is contained inside the universe, that is the definition of an isolated system, no external energy.

According to your definition of order the sand of a beach is the ultimate ordered state and if you do a sand castle you are just introducing disorder, it seems there is something wrong there

a reply to: Indigent

No even if the universe is infinite all the energy in the universe is contained inside the universe, that is the definition of an isolated system, no external energy.

The word "external" has no meaning in an infinite universe, the point is you cannot conceptually contain all the energy unless you use some sort of abstract model.

According to your definition of order the sand of a beach is the ultimate ordered state and if you do a sand castle you are just introducing disorder, it seems there us something wrong there

If the universe was completely filled with uniformly distributed sand then building a sand castle would be introducing disorder to the system. Actually what I'm really trying to say is that entropy is entirely subjective, and I don't really think it has anything to do with why time only flows in one direction.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

If you dont know what you are saying why you keep argumenting?

A predetermined outcome can lead to chaos when that outcome is changed somehow in advance.

The illusion of free will is a connective constant, actual free will leads to chaos.

Time can either be stable and constant, or chaotic.

One day this will make sense.

originally posted by: Indigent
a reply to: ChaoticOrder

If you dont know what you are saying why you keep argumenting?

Or perhaps you simply don't understand what I'm saying?
Perhaps this lecture will make clearer what I'm saying.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

I do not understand what you say, help me out will ya?

Well actually some things in the universe do become increasingly ordered as time goes on. Looking at the surface of Earth from space you can see just how ordered our societies are becoming.

If the universe was completely filled with uniformly distributed sand then building a sand castle would be introducing disorder to the system.

See my confusion? you define order in one post and completely contradict your definition in the next .

Regarding infinite universe vs contained lets put it this way if you believe in the big bang you should know all there is in the universe was since the moment after time 0, this is a contained system as the energy of the universe will not increase from an outside source. E0=Einfinite no?

Actually what I'm really trying to say is that entropy is entirely subjective

is it?

In thermodynamics, entropy (usual symbol S) is a measure of the number of specific ways in which a thermodynamic system may be arranged, commonly understood as a measure of disorder, or a measure of decay towards thermodynamic equilibrium. The entropy of an isolated system never decreases, because isolated systems spontaneously decay towards thermodynamic equilibrium, the maximum entropy. Systems which are not isolated may decrease in entropy. Since entropy is a state function, the change in the entropy of a system is the same for any process going from a given initial state to a given final state, whether the process is reversible or irreversible. However irreversible processes increase the combined entropy of the system and its environment.

What i'm saying is nothing new, maximum entropy = maximum disorder if you dont believe me you could take any Physical chemistry book from the 50 and onwards and check how this works and why.

originally posted by: Indigent
a reply to: ChaoticOrder

I do not understand what you say, help me out will ya?

I'm saying several things, but mainly I'm just saying entropy is subjective.

is it?

According to mainstream science, obviously not.

What i'm saying is nothing new

I'm not disputing that, but that doesn't mean what you are saying is correct. The "number of specific ways" the particles in our universe can be arranged never changes, it's simply that some arrangements are more likely to naturally occur than others.

Regarding infinite universe vs contained lets put it this way if you believe in the big bang you should know all there is in the universe was since the moment after time 0, this is a contained system as the energy of the universe will not increase from an outside source. E0=Einfinite no?

1) I don't believe time had a start so there was no E0 or T0.
2) I don't think our big bang was the only big bang, I think space-time is infinite and that our big bang was merely one of many big bangs to occur in already existing infinite space-time, which is why all our measurements imply that our universe is "infinitely flat". Essentially meaning the universe contains an infinite amount of energy, it's not measurable or quantifiable.