What Would Gorbachev Make Of Putin and Russian Expansionism?

Gorbachev did so much to bring the cold war to an end. He saved the world essentially. But he also made the world what it is today following the breakup of the USSR. What would he think of Putin and what is happening now in Russia and Russia on the international stage? With the prospect of Cold War 2 on the horizon, he must surely have his head in his hands shaking it in despair.

Thoughts anyone? Would he consider Putin a real threat to world peace and starting WW3?

reply to post by Wirral Bagpuss


Why are you seemingly speaking of him in the past tense? As far as I know, he is still alive.

Somebody should ask him.....

I think he or she achieved the mysterious, Everyone Thinks He's Dead, So I Will Think He's Dead, Too Effect. I also thought he was dead.

Russian Expansionism?

The only country i see trying to expand or take over the planet is America.

reply to post by xXSvenXx


While that may be true, are you honestly trying to say Russia isn't doing a power/land grab right now with Ukraine? What about protecting Russian minorities in the Baltic States?

This quote from Gorbachev answers that.

Important facts: Khrushchev, a Ukrainian 'gave' Crimea to Ukraine in 1954 as a means of 'placating' the Ukrainians though this was not favoured by most Crimean citizens, who seen and see that transfer as illegal and meant that it wasn't part of the USSR after 1991, despite identifying as Russian and wanting to continue being part of Russia.

More than twice before now Crimea's own parliament has formally voted for and claimed independence from Ukraine. The Ukrainian government trashed their previous claims for independence.

Perhaps now this will be resolved as clearly it is the right of Crimean citizens and their desire that they have independence from Ukraine and rejoin Russia.

www.ft.com...

Consider the minutes of a July 1987 politburo meeting convened by Mr Gorbachev. “Most likely, from a historical point of view, it would be correct to return Crimea to Russia. But Ukraine would rise up against that,” Mr Gorbachev told his colleagues.

the decision in 1954 by Nikita Khrushchev, his successor, to transfer ownership of Crimea from Russia to Ukraine; and the 1991 collapse of the Soviet Union, which turned Crimea, virtually overnight, from a largely Russian-populated bastion of Soviet naval might into the most ethnically and politically contested region of a newly independent Ukrainian state.

In 1954 Khrushchev’s action seemed of little significance, for Russia and Ukraine each formed part of a rigidly centralised, one-party dictatorship. Soviet archives suggest Khrushchev knew exactly what he was doing and had even contemplated the move as early as 1944.

This transfer was an explicit effort to win the loyalty of Ukrainians, a people who in the 1930s had endured mass famine and terror at the hands of Stalin and his henchmen, including Khrushchev, a peasant’s son of mixed Russian and Ukrainian heritage. They were by no means fully reconciled to Soviet rule in the early 1950s. Yet what the Soviet leadership gained by pleasing Ukrainians, they lost by alienating Russians.

It is hard to compare Gorbachev time to now. Even after the fall of the USSR Russia was still a global power, having close ties with most of the former Soviet States, friends and allies around the world, a large arms market, a large arms industry and a large modern military. In that position you have lots to fall back on when it comes to something like Ukraine, you can take it slowly and deal with it over time.

Now however, Russia is in a bad way, only a few of the former Soviet states want anything to do with Russia. Its arms market has suffered as the West makes the high tech sales and China makes the low tech sales. Its defense industry is a disaster, they can build quality weapons system in any sort of numbers, and its military is now quickly falling behind in size and tech, suffering terribly from corruption. And it has few friends in the world mostly global pariahs.

So Russia is desperate. No longer a global power and not even the dominate power on its borders in either military or economic areas, it is in dire straights. Instead of working with the global community its actions just drive other nations away. Any state in that condition is going act different than it would was not in such dire straights.

2 weeks ago Gorbachev was quoted in this article, complete below. Ive also provided the link to it.

www.aol.com...

Mikhail Gorbachev calls for Ukraine unity

Feb 24th 2014 10:59AM

By ADAM SCHRECK

SHARJAH, United Arab Emirates (AP) - The political turmoil in Ukraine looks like "a real mess" but it is important that the country hold together in the battle for influence between Russia and the West, former Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev said Monday.

The 82-year-old Gorbachev made the comments during an interview with The Associated Press in the United Arab Emirates city of Sharjah.

He emphasized the need for outside mediation to ease tensions in Ukraine, which became an independent country following the 1991 dissolution of the Soviet Union that he once led.

Ukraine today is deeply divided between largely pro-Russian eastern regions and western areas that long for closer ties with the European Union.

"No one wants it to come apart. I think that today it's important not to tear it apart," Gorbachev said of Ukraine. "I recently appealed to the leaders of the United States and Russia to act perhaps as mediators. And that would also include the European Union."

The mediators, he continued, could play a role in ensuring "that the crisis we see in Ukraine does not result in this kind of dramatic breakup. Let us give the people a chance to agree on something."

Gorbachev was in the Emirates to address the International Government Communication Forum in Sharjah, which sits along the Persian Gulf coast just north of Dubai.

In his speech Sunday, he said the political tumult in Ukraine was ultimately the result of the government's failure to act democratically, engage in dialogue and fight corruption.

Demonstrators first began protesting late last year after President Viktor Yanukovych abandoned an agreement that would have strengthened his country's ties with the European Union in favor of seeking closer cooperation with Moscow.

"It looks like there is a real mess there and that the leaders of Ukraine proved unable to reach a kind of consensus in the country, in Ukrainian society. And that's why those issues became so acute," Gorbachev said. "There's a new Ukraine and it should find its own niche."

Ukraine's acting government is seeking the arrest of Yanukovych, whose whereabouts are uncertain, over accusations of mass crimes against protesters. Snipers fired on demonstrators last week during the bloodiest violence in Ukraine's post-Soviet history.

Gorbachev suggested Monday that no single outside power could dominate Ukraine's future.

"If the European Union wants to have things its own way, the United States wants to have things their own way, and Russia wants to have things its own way, I think that would be wrong," he said.

reply to post by mysterioustranger


Thank you for this, That is extremely interesting. Sounds like Gorby is pissed off to say the least.

So how would you call the colonial adventures of the US of A? Ah I know, its spreading democrace, my bad.

reply to post by pavil


Errrrm, did I mention that he had died? No I did not. What made you think I thought that. I know he is knocking on a bit and frankly I don't think he has that many years left but I knew he was not dead, as that would have been all over the news if he had popped his clogs. I like the guy, he did a lot of good for the world in many ways.

reply to post by Wirral Bagpuss


Sounds like he read a script more like, or is in the pockets of the EU etc to utter such a thing, which is contrary to his own 1987 opinions of Crimea being returned to Russia.

Besides, Gorbachev's opinion is irrelevant and ''Russian Expansionism'' is an anti Russian propaganda term. Read the facts, before swallowing the MSM news.

reply to post by theabsolutetruth


I don't follow MSN news. I have given a lot of thought to Crimea and have my own reasons for doing so. I was merely speculating what Gorby thought of it all. I have no agenda as such. I have my own thoughts on what is happening, but that is for another thread. I was simply enquiring what Gorby thought of it all. Nothing more, nothing less. Oh and since you started on Gorby being in the pocket of the west, well Putin is clearly in the pocket of the Russian Mafia et al. Go figure...

reply to post by Wirral Bagpuss


The people of Crimea have a few times even before now tried getting their freedom and independence from the Ukraine, being of Russian identity and seeing their land being 'given' to Ukraine illegal in the first place.

Now they have been threatened from Right wing extremism that hates Russians ''Muscovites'' etc and doesn't want them in Ukraine. Hence their appeal to Russia, their 'motherland' to which they feel part of and have strong ties to, to help in their bid for safety and independence from a government that doesn't serve their interests.

Remember Crimea is an AUTONOMOUS region and has the right for bidding for freedom so the term ''Russian Expansionism'' is not applicable.

Also, just how much do you think the EU and US oil, banking and trade industries would like getting their hands on a strategic place such as Crimea and Ukraine, where Russia's oil flows through to Europe and the military sea ports have strategic positioning.

Stalin would thank both Putin and Obama.
Gorbachev would admonish Putin and Obama.

reply to post by xXSvenXx


Nope, we just take out the garbage as training missions.

Where have we expanded to? Countries we conquered like Japan and Iraq were helped to govern themselves, we left.

Russia left East Germany in shambles, I remember seeing Russian soldiers trying to sell their plastic medals at the Brandenburg gate. The soldiers were starving and had to be fed by Germans, it was a war they couldn't win.

Putins actions were stupid and he hasn't realized the Jedi mind trick doesn't work.

He has lost already unless he wants an all out war.

The U.S. and its allies will win, what they did in a few weeks what Russia couldn't in years in Afghanistan.

I was in Berlin when the wall fell, I hope the Russian people get the rats out of the government.

I think it is a better world when Russians and Americans work together.

reply to post by Wirral Bagpuss


Probably because you always spoke about him in the past tense, never the present. That's fine, just don't make it sound like I had no basis for thinking that.

Complete history of Russia set to the Tetris theme




From the Czar to Putin , awesomely framed with the Tetris metaphor...

Gorby is involved in UN Agenda 21. These players take different positions to make it appear they are on different playing fields. Even BO was notorious when he said over a hot mic that he would be more flexible after he was re-elected, so do we really think he is not on the same team as Putin?

Cold war style interventions and expansions only ended on one side though. The last decade has seen US military interventions in the Middle East, Africa and NATO expansion in Europe. By preventing US military intervention in Syria and not standing on the sidelines as this revolution in Ukraine plays out it simply shows that two sides are playing again instead of just one. For a conflict to truly stop both sides must agree to stop the conflict or for one to completely defeat the other. This never happened and that's why the cold war never truly ended.