The 13th Apostle, a Sun God, and a Messiah

Note: this is my first thread on ATS, so please be patient with me.

I was curious about the role of Saul/Paul of Tarsus (or St. Paul in the RCC and other traditions) in the development of Christianity as we know it today. Saul's letters and teachings were a major influence on early dogmas of the Church. The Gnostics and other more alternative Christian sects were labeled heresies, and the Jerusalem Church, under James the Just, was eventually dominated by Pauline Christianity due largely to the fact that Paul allowed Gentiles to directly convert to his new faith, a radical move at the time that blurred the relationship between who were Messianic Jews and who were Christians. Seeing as Yeshua (the Hebrew name for Jesus) was a Jew himself, that he referenced Hebrew Scripture, and that the Torah is included in the Bible, shouldn't Christian teachings be closer to Judaism? My point is, it seems many of the doctrines of the Christian faith appear to be rooted in Pagan mythology.

en.wikipedia.org...

www.borndigital.com...

Tarsus in Anatolia was a popular place for the Roman mystery cult of Mithras.

The roots of Mithraism go back to a Persian religion (Zorastrianism) and one of its Magi, named Zarathustra, whose name for "God" was Ahura-Mazda. Around 390 B.C.E., this religion made its way west into Greece, and placed "Mithras" in the role of a deity equal to the sun god. Its priests were "Magi;" the same Magi who visited Betl'chem when Jesus was born.

Many aspects, including a savior dying and being resurrected, a divine meal of union between God and man, and even worship on Sunday (differing from the traditional Jewish Sabbath).

So although the ethics of Christianity are based upon Rabbi Yeshua, Great Teacher and Divine Messiah, maybe many Chrisitan doctrines, such as the atonement of the resurrection and original sin, are merely Paul's twisted blend of Yeshua's peaceful teachings and heretic Roman Paganism?

(Remember, the Gospels themselves were written after Paul's time. Perhaps the source that the books were based upon was corrupted to fit the new teachings of the Pauline Church?)

Originally posted by Fortimus
such as the atonement of the resurrection and original sin, are merely Paul's twisted blend of Yeshua's peaceful teachings and heretic Roman Paganism?

But wherein zoroasterianism do we find these things? The hero at the center of the roman cult, Mithras, dies, but for atonement? And where in original sin? True enough, in the persian cult, there is this idea of duality, and the inherent sin-likeness of everything, but is that quite the same thing? Isn't the jewish genesis myth a more likely source for original sin?

Mithras had many similarities between the Christian Yeshua, one of them being his own sacrifice to save the mankind.

The cult surrounding Mithras had many similarities to the early cult of Christianity. Mithras had had twelve followers with whom he had shared a last sacramental meal. He had sacrificed himself to redeem mankind. Descending into the underworld, he had conquered death and had risen to life again on the third day.

There are many things that seem to indicate that Christianity was reworked in some ways to appease Pagan converts. Christmas, the celebration of Christ's birth, just so happens to be on December 25, the traditional day of birth for Mithras (scholars say that Yeshua must have been born in the spring, if the Gospels give an accurate account, for they claim that the shepherds were tending their flocks). And the Christian day of worship is Sunday! Christians worship on the Day of the Sun! Yeshua himself worshipped on Saturday, the true Sabbath of Judaism. Doesn't it seem that the true Christianity has been diluted by Paganism, rather than the belief that Christianity is an evolution of Judaism, as many claim?

And yes, although you can find inspiration for original sin in Genesis, the Jews did not believe in it. The Pagans did believe in similar concepts. The Christian faith took the Pagans' idea over the Jewish one.

Originally posted by Fortimus
There are many things that seem to indicate that Christianity was reworked in some ways to appease Pagan converts. Christmas, the celebration of Christ's birth, just so happens to be on December 25, the traditional day of birth for Mithras (scholars say that Yeshua must have been born in the spring, if the Gospels give an accurate account, for they claim that the shepherds were tending their flocks).

Yes, there was a consolidation of holidays to appease the townfolk. I do not worship a tree for winter solstice nor make sacrifices to the sun. Let's move CHIRSTmas back to a reasonable time of the year. I want my holyday back!

Originally posted by Fortimus
And the Christian day of worship is Sunday! Christians worship on the Day of the Sun! Yeshua himself worshipped on Saturday, the true Sabbath of Judaism. Doesn't it seem that the true Christianity has been diluted by Paganism, rather than the belief that Christianity is an evolution of Judaism, as many claim?

Do ya think it had anything to do with pass-over? Of course not, it would certainly have to do with one of the bajillion Greek, Roman, Noridic or Celtic gods, right?

Originally posted by Fortimus
And yes, although you can find inspiration for original sin in Genesis, the Jews did not believe in it. The Pagans did believe in similar concepts. The Christian faith took the Pagans' idea over the Jewish one.

And we believe this because....?

[edit on 13-7-2005 by saint4God]

originally posted by saint4God
Yes, there was a consolidation of holidays to appease the townfolk. I do not worship a tree for winter solstice nor make sacrifices to the sun. Let's move CHIRSTmas back to a reasonable time of the year. I want my holyday back!

Saint, I'm not alleging that you or I or any Christian for that matter worships a tree for winter solstice or make sacrifices to the sun. I just think that the roots of Christianity should be more in Judaism, and that we should eradicate Pagan references such as holy-day designations.

originally posted by saint4God
Do ya think it had anything to do with pass-over? Of course not, it would certainly have to do with one of the bajillion Greek, Roman, Noridic or Celtic gods, right?

If Christians do worship the same God as the Jews, and the Jewish Sabbath had already been established by the Prophets of the Old Testament, why then should it be changed? Nowhere in the entire Bible does it mention worship on Sunday. The first day of the week is mentioned only eight times in the New Testament (Matthew 28:1 > Mark 16:1, 2 > Mark 16:9 > Luke 24:1 > John 20:1 > John 20:19 > Acts 20:7, 8 > 1 Corinthians 16:1, 2).

None of these eight texts show that Sunday, or the first day of the week has any sacredness attached to it.

Link

originally posted by saint4God
And we believe this because....?

I'm sorry, I don't understand the point you're making here.

[edit on 13-7-2005 by Fortimus]

[edit on 13-7-2005 by Fortimus]

Originally posted by Fortimus
Note: this is my first thread on ATS, so please be patient with me.

I was curious about the role of Saul/Paul of Tarsus (or St. Paul in the RCC and other traditions) in the development of Christianity as we know it today. Saul's letters and teachings were a major influence on early dogmas of the Church. The Gnostics and other more alternative Christian sects were labeled heresies, and the Jerusalem Church, under James the Just, was eventually dominated by Pauline Christianity due largely to the fact that Paul allowed Gentiles to directly convert to his new faith, a radical move at the time that blurred the relationship between who were Messianic Jews and who were Christians. Seeing as Yeshua (the Hebrew name for Jesus) was a Jew himself, that he referenced Hebrew Scripture, and that the Torah is included in the Bible, shouldn't Christian teachings be closer to Judaism? My point is, it seems many of the doctrines of the Christian faith appear to be rooted in Pagan mythology.

en.wikipedia.org...

www.borndigital.com...

Tarsus in Anatolia was a popular place for the Roman mystery cult of Mithras.

The roots of Mithraism go back to a Persian religion (Zorastrianism) and one of its Magi, named Zarathustra, whose name for "God" was Ahura-Mazda. Around 390 B.C.E., this religion made its way west into Greece, and placed "Mithras" in the role of a deity equal to the sun god. Its priests were "Magi;" the same Magi who visited Betl'chem when Jesus was born.

Many aspects, including a savior dying and being resurrected, a divine meal of union between God and man, and even worship on Sunday (differing from the traditional Jewish Sabbath).

So although the ethics of Christianity are based upon Rabbi Yeshua, Great Teacher and Divine Messiah, maybe many Chrisitan doctrines, such as the atonement of the resurrection and original sin, are merely Paul's twisted blend of Yeshua's peaceful teachings and heretic Roman Paganism?

(Remember, the Gospels themselves were written after Paul's time. Perhaps the source that the books were based upon was corrupted to fit the new teachings of the Pauline Church?)

Hello, I have some information stored on a personal group and I noticed the post about the holiday Christmas.

I hope this can be of use?

Now read about your Holidays,
www.strike-the-root.com...
-
www.aloha.net...
www.aloha.net...

Learn more about the Sabbath:
www.sabbathtruth.com...
www.aloha.net...



Ancient Sun Worship and Its Impact on Christianity:

www.harrypottermagic.org...
-
www.aloha.net...
www.aloha.net...


More good information at: www.aloha.net...

[edit on 13-7-2005 by phantomviewer]

Nice links, phantomviewer! Good research.

It really shows how distorted and corrupted history can often become when the victors of conflict arise from the ashes to spread propaganda and rewrite actual events.

Concerning christmas, I am with saint on all points.
Beyond that, for my brothers who have a hard time picturing Christs birth on september , october, or november....the holiday is called christmas.

CHRISTmas. Not any other mass. Its what you feel, speak, and do..that matters. Not who else is enjoying the day.

To make the point..God laid down the days, months and years. They changed after the flood. We went from a 360 day year to a 365.

Another change is the name of jewish months. They adopted babylonian names and Jesus used that very system to keep the holidays.

Another change was when the jews came up out of egypt. God shifted the calendar 6 months. He made the "7-1-yyyy" into "1-1-yyyy".

So there we see Gods examples.
Now lets hear God speak.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Col 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshiping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Col 2:19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23 Which things have indeed a show of wisdom in will-worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honor to the satisfying of the flesh.

The point is..to YOU it is SUNday.
To us it is the sabbath day. (or, if our prefer..SONday).

No amount of research can change anything if..to us..it is moot.
Hope this helps

Thanks for your post. I have considered this topic and line of view many times but refrained from posting on it until now.

Many persons have made posts with a similar perspective to yours with some variations but always with the same result.

Paul(Saul of Tarsus) is not well liked among sophists and the Gnostic groups becasue of many of the positions he has taken particulary with his hebrew bretheren. It is noted that his own bretheren did not like him and plotted to kill him when they could. This too is very similar to what happened to Jesus. In the end they hated them both. If Paul was teaching the Hebrew religion of the day as it was practiced they would not have plotted to kill him..common sense for he surely knew what the Hebrew religion of the day was and how it was practiced. Events dictate clearly that he did not do this and hence the attempts to kill him just as it was with Jesus.

Paul being a Benjamite and a highly educated pharisee would naturally know the Olde Testament better than even most of his brother Hebrews. Of this there is no doubt especially when reading the book of Hebrews where he is primarily addressing Hebrews so naturally he would uses more Olde Testament in his teaching than when speaking to those of Gentile background. This being said..Paul would also know very well where the Hebrews deviated from the Olde Testament and why they did this. A concept covered by very few teachers and scholars even today. Paul is the apostle assigned particularly to the Gentiles..this does not mean that he did not have contact with his fellow Hebrews. Records in the Bible indicate that he did have contact with his fellow Hebrews and often scolded them and explained to them that the Olde Testament practices were over such as eating seperately from the Gentiles.

As to Judiasm or Christianity having origins in Paganism. Not so. All attempts in history have been for Paganism to attach itself to Judiasm and Christianity like parasite/seducers. Many of the followers of both Judiasm and Christianity have been doing these abominations for so long that they think they are a natural part of the religion when they are in fact no such thing. Both the Olde Testaments and New Testaments have this record of the traditions of men infiltrating and trying to pass itself off as the parent religion and its practices..right down to the holidays et al. The baking of cakes to the Queen of Heaven is one of the practices observed by the Hebrews at different times from pagan origins. The Christians have done exactly the same thing as the Hebrews...following the traditions of men.
The origins of the Hebrew and Christian religions were not in Paganism..but when they came into contact with paganism many of them adopted the pagan practices in violation of their instructions as Hebrews or Christians. Furthermore there were also counterfit churchs who in secret tried to look Christian when in fact they were not ...adopting the look and smell of Christianity but to increase their rolls quickly they adopted pagan practices to induce pagans to convert. They never were Christian. This is Nicolaitianism which the Lord says He hates.
There are still Christians today who do not celebrate Christmas, Easter, Halloween , or birthdays ..or any of the traditional holidays. I am one of them. To those who know..the Sabbath is a person not a day. We do not observe days times months and years. Every day belongs to my Lord. We give thanks to the Lord every day..all day..for we are His workmanship and we measure carefully when we percieve a thing or idea to be the traditions of men ..not of the Lord.
We are not under the bondage of the Olde Testament ...and do not attempt to make the children of the bondwoman heir with the children of the free woman. We understand what Paul is saying and we know that every attempt of pagansim/gnosticism/sophism, and Eastern philosophy is to attempt to do exactly that. It is a attempt to make the children of the bondwoman heir with the children of the free woman.
This is why Paul is not liked by sophists and other "intellegentsia" as the Light of the Lord through Pauls epistles will make this clear.
When you understand certain fingerprints of occult pagan traditions and are able to contrast this with Christianity you will see this hand throughout history and its attempts to seduce and water down the religion of God from Olde Testament times into today ..the New Testament. This hand is still working today.
This knowlege of what Paul was and what he knew is not well taught even in seminarys in favor of the view that you attempt to explain. It just isnt so. Even in bible colleges and seminarys they attempt to use the gnostic/sophist teaching concerning Paul. Just like the Pharisees many of todays teachers dont like Paul either. Nothing new under the sun.


Thanks for your time Fortimus...good post.
Orangetom

As a footnote here to show you how ignorant and decieving intelligent people can be I will give you this example.

A number of years ago as the "Christmas Season" approached there was a program on the television about the history of the season and its events.

I live very close to Colonial Williamsburg here in Virginia. On the tube there was a director of events at Colonial Williamsburg as a guest. Obviously a woman of Letters. The host of the program asked this director if they had any records of how the early colonialists decorated thier homes during Christmas. This woman stated clearly that they did not have any records of how the early colonialists decorated their homes for Christmas.....but ...we think they would have decorated thier homes in this manner. And she began to show the audience how today they decorate the historical section of Colonial Williamsburg.

Talk about deciet...lie..deception...phoney. No records means that the colonialists did not celebrate Christmas or decorate. This is a woman of letters...doing this.

There is no way that George Washington could have gotten so many of the colonialists to cross the Deleware River on December24th if it was a colonial holiday. The reason they were able to do this successfully is that the Hessians on the other side were drunken celebrating their pagan tradition/holiday.
Do not ever give people enough information to think and analyze events for themselves in lieu of the hidden doctrine...the default setting. Ignorance is bliss.

There is a book out available at some librarys on Christmas and it gives state by state the date in which the various states made Christmas a holiday. None of the dates go back to the times of Colonial Williamsburg.

There are also books giving the history of the various holidays of pagan origins such as halloween ...all saints days..lady day...et al..
"The Two Babylons " is one of them by Alexander Hislop.

Just additional information for people to consider.
Thanks again,

Orangetom

Originally posted by Fortimus
Saint, I'm not alleging that you or I or any Christian for that matter worships a tree for winter solstice or make sacrifices to the sun. I just think that the roots of Christianity should be more in Judaism, and that we should eradicate Pagan references such as holy-day designations.

Thanks. Er...does not Judaism have holy days? And, a bunch of 'em?

Originally posted by Fortimus
If Christians do worship the same God as the Jews, and the Jewish Sabbath had already been established by the Prophets of the Old Testament, why then should it be changed? Nowhere in the entire Bible does it mention worship on Sunday. The first day of the week is mentioned only eight times in the New Testament (Matthew 28:1 > Mark 16:1, 2 > Mark 16:9 > Luke 24:1 > John 20:1 > John 20:19 > Acts 20:7, 8 > 1 Corinthians 16:1, 2).

Jesus made a couple 'oopses' according to the Pharisees in 'breaking' the Sabbath (which he expains he was not). It was then he had to remind them exactly why there is a sabbath. The book of Hebrews does a really nice job at explaining what "entering His rest" means. In other words, it's a rest break and we should always be in, around, and through the presence of God. Just because church is scheduled on Sundays (and sometimes Tuesday evenings, Wednesdays evening and some on Saturdays) does not mean that you should put in your 'community service' once a week. Living with God is an every-second relationship not to be faulted by any person nor their 'letter of the law' rules.

None of these eight texts show that Sunday, or the first day of the week has any sacredness attached to it.

So only one day is sacred? Good morning friend, every day is a blessing from God.

originally posted by saint4God
I'm sorry, I don't understand the point you're making here.

I wanted further explanation on the following statment you'd made: "The Christian faith took the Pagans' idea over the Jewish one" because it seems to me half their book is Jewish and many will argue that the whole thing is (as Messianic Jews would proclaim). Any changes to make pagans happy or attempts at cultural assimilation are just that. In that case, time to go back to the Book.

thanks for the input everyone

Thanks. Er...does not Judaism have holy days? And, a bunch of 'em?

What I meant was that using the same days for worshipping Christ as the Pagans did for their "gods," it just seems to link Christianity to Paganism. Not in a large dogmatic way, but still a link.

Jesus made a couple 'oopses' according to the Pharisees in 'breaking' the Sabbath (which he expains he was not). It was then he had to remind them exactly why there is a sabbath. The book of Hebrews does a really nice job at explaining what "entering His rest" means. In other words, it's a rest break and we should always be in, around, and through the presence of God. Just because church is scheduled on Sundays (and sometimes Tuesday evenings, Wednesdays evening and some on Saturdays) does not mean that you should put in your 'community service' once a week. Living with God is an every-second relationship not to be faulted by any person nor their 'letter of the law' rules.

Good point....

I wanted further explanation on the following statment you'd made: "The Christian faith took the Pagans' idea over the Jewish one" because it seems to me half their book is Jewish and many will argue that the whole thing is (as Messianic Jews would proclaim). Any changes to make pagans happy or attempts at cultural assimilation are just that. In that case, time to go back to the Book.

I was making a point about original sin -- though Genesis is in both sides of the Judeo-Christian tradition, the Jews did not observe this doctrine, while many Pagans had similar ideals. For me it just seems better to assume that mankind is fundamentally good at heart.

So only one day is sacred? Good morning friend, every day is a blessing from God.

Wise words, my friend.... I think you've changed my thoughts on some of these issues.

people tend to think or adopt the line of thinking that because people meet on a particular day or time that that is how it is done .in perpetuity. People meet on Sunday because that is the day most people have off. Some meet on Wednesdays or Saturdays ..no matter..it is a time when they can meet or get together to give thanks,praise, and testimony. The point is that you meet in the name of your God.
The main thing for me to finally learn ..is that for the New Testament believer...the Sabbath is a person ..not a day. This was a huge revelation ..verses the traditions of men. This made alot of things clear about mens traditions and how they can be perverted to suit men ont God.

Thanks to all for some great posts,
Orangetom

Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Funny, I was just reading up on who wrote the NT today, and I was really disturbed by it.

Only 5 disciples have cannonical books in the new testament! We know what happened to Judas, but what about the rest of them? They didn't feel like writing about Jesus? They didn't see the need to help spread the story?

John wrote 5 books. Gospel of John, 1 2 and 3 John, and Revelations.

Peter wrote 2 books but combined they are only 7 pages long. Unless of course you believe in the alleged lost gospel of peter, which paints Pontius Pilate as a friend of Joseph of Arimithea who tried to save Jesus, among other minor inconsisitencies.

Luke wrote two. Gospel of Luke and Acts.

Matthew and Mark each wrote one gospel.

That's it for the disciples who knew Jesus in his lifetime.

Jesus' brothers James and Jude each wrote a book.

Then Paul- a man who devoted his life to killing christians and never met the living Jesus. All of a sudden, he claims to have seen the risen lord, and he writes 14 letters instructing various churches on how to behave, who is a heretic and who is not, etc etc. If Paul were a modern figure being discussed on ATS, we wouldn't believe a word he said. Disinfo, big time.

So, where exactly are the other six men who followed Jesus around for those 3 years? I'm guessing that they weren't willing to play ball with good ol' St. Paul and found themselves on the outside. I know Thomas wrote a gnostic gospel, but i'm not sure about the others.

Originally posted by Fortimus
The roots of Mithraism go back to a Persian religion (Zorastrianism) and one of its Magi, named Zarathustra, whose name for "God" was Ahura-Mazda. Around 390 B.C.E., this religion made its way west into Greece, and placed "Mithras" in the role of a deity equal to the sun god. Its priests were "Magi;" the same Magi who visited Betl'chem when Jesus was born.

Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Before there was the creation of anything it had already been decided by God that a Savior would be needed to die for the salvation of mankind. Christianity isn't a copy of other religions, these other religions are a copy of christianity, which was not fully revealed until Jesus came and paid the price for sin.

[edit on 14-7-2005 by dbrandt]

Originally posted by Fortimus
What I meant was that using the same days for worshipping Christ as the Pagans did for their "gods," it just seems to link Christianity to Paganism. Not in a large dogmatic way, but still a link.

I see, and agree. I think that link needs to be severed, though I don't know a way of effectively spreading that. A lot of Christians I talk to are content that the worshippers of those other gods are no longer around and that the numerology of when the day falls is of no importance. *shrugs*

Originally posted by Fortimus
Good point....

Thank you! Though I can't take credit for it.

Originally posted by Fortimus
I was making a point about original sin -- though Genesis is in both sides of the Judeo-Christian tradition, the Jews did not observe this doctrine, while many Pagans had similar ideals. For me it just seems better to assume that mankind is fundamentally good at heart.

My advice then is to meet more people who are true to their nature. That is to say, do not hide any wrong they commit nor apologize for any thought or action that comes naturally. Better still, become a parent .

Originally posted by Fortimus
So only one day is sacred? Good morning friend, every day is a blessing from God.

Originally posted by Fortimus
Wise words, my friend.... I think you've changed my thoughts on some of these issues.

Thank you again, but not my words, just my fingers. Glad I could help carry the message.

May love, faith and hope be with you always,
God bless.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Funny, I was just reading up on who wrote the NT today, and I was really disturbed by it.

Only 5 disciples have cannonical books in the new testament! We know what happened to Judas, but what about the rest of them? They didn't feel like writing about Jesus?

I'm not sure if they were able to. Maybe they were and maybe they did. A lot can happen in two thousand years.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
They didn't see the need to help spread the story?

They were commanded to spread the word (Matthew 28:16). I believe they did. I believe despite the fact that there was a lot of persecution, they managed to get that Word out to lots and lots of people...as exemplified by wild-fire spread of the Word to what it is today.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
John wrote 5 books. Gospel of John, 1 2 and 3 John, and Revelations.

Peter wrote 2 books but combined they are only 7 pages long. Unless of course you believe in the alleged lost gospel of peter, which paints Pontius Pilate as a friend of Joseph of Arimithea who tried to save Jesus, among other minor inconsisitencies.

Luke wrote two. Gospel of Luke and Acts.

Matthew and Mark each wrote one gospel.

That's it for the disciples who knew Jesus in his lifetime.

Jesus' brothers James and Jude each wrote a book.

Looks right to me, though I don't know too much about the 'alleged gospel of Peter'.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Then Paul- a man who devoted his life to killing christians and never met the living Jesus. All of a sudden, he claims to have seen the risen lord, and he writes 14 letters instructing various churches on how to behave, who is a heretic and who is not, etc etc. If Paul were a modern figure being discussed on ATS, we wouldn't believe a word he said. Disinfo, big time.

I got slammed recently for blasting Paul in some instances. I think Paul is by far the most misunderstood character in the whole Bible. Here's a test. Ready Matthew, then read Corinthians. Paul seems to mirror his master in a way that's quite remarkable. Yes, he did tell the Corinthian church how to solve particular problems they were having at that time that now looks like not a great idea, but I guess we'd have to be there to accurately judge. Highlight the similarities between what Paul says and what Jesus says and you'll end up with his writings to be yellow books :-D. Give it a go.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
So, where exactly are the other six men who followed Jesus around for those 3 years? I'm guessing that they weren't willing to play ball with good ol' St. Paul and found themselves on the outside. I know Thomas wrote a gnostic gospel, but i'm not sure about the others.

How about being stoned to death (Stephen), jailed, and being hunted down like rabid dogs? The other apostles and Paul did have some drama, but ultimately accepted him as an apostle also and reconciled a lot of differences in practices (not in the Word, that was consistent). From Acts to Revelations, there's that series of books that talks about the "Ellis Island" Christians. Landing in hostile territory to make a fresh start with nothing but but their experiences to bring to the new lands. I'm still re-reading Paul's works currently.

[edit on 14-7-2005 by saint4God]

I came to the same conclusion awhile back as you posted in your previous post.

"Christianity isn't a copy of other religions, these other religions are a copy of christianity, which was not fully revealed until Jesus came and paid the price for sin."

It is very good to see that someone else out here has thought it through also.

It became obvious to me that the pagan nations ...sought to emulate the pattern of the God of our Fathers and then change it to the traditions of men and the glory of men for human purposes...mostly power and control over men. When Christian times came along they tried to continue this pattern of power and control under the guise of Christianity but with perversions due to the necessity of keeping and maintaining power and the power base. Mostly by appearing holy and keeping the public ignorant of real Christian principles. In this manner they copied and appeared Christian on the surface but to those with the proper knowlege they were and still are not.

One more piece of information for believers...Olde and New Testaments. There is no such instruction for a beleiver to celebrate a birthday. Only pagans did this. All days belonged to God..Olde and New Testaments. Birthdays are self glorification. All glory goes to God.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Originally posted by Fortimus
Saint, I'm not alleging that you or I or any Christian for that matter worships a tree for winter solstice or make sacrifices to the sun. I just think that the roots of Christianity should be more in Judaism, and that we should eradicate Pagan references such as holy-day designations.
[edit on 13-7-2005 by Fortimus]

The whole ordeal with the tree does come from Ancient Isra-EL...it was once called the asherah