Vote on Debate Round 2: Onlyinmydreams Vs Dragonrider: Alien Visitation

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www.abovetopsecret.com...

Place your votes on who you believe presented the best organized and articulated debate.

Alright,
as much as i've been playing the ditzy sorority girl this week in chat, I do have some serious things to say about this particular debate.

After joining ats I took the time to read all the posts in this one, and all that was related to it.

From my perspective: to the ATS community Dragon probably won... BUT, to anyone who doesn't take reptile men and spaceships pulled by electricity as second nature, or as apparent reality, Dreams was clearly stronger. This is simply because all of the things Dragon referred to, as proof of his argument, were conspiracies in and of themselves. That is, Dragon's argument for the reality of alien visitation to earth rested, itself, on other conspiracies related to aliens. Dreams brought in mainstream media to the argument, while Dragon based everything he said off of sites like ATS. Also, U of arizona has a big aerospace community. I talked to a few guys about the sites Dreams listed, and the sites Dragon did. They all agreed that Space.com and astronautix.com are legitimnate sites, so i believe their debunking of that UFO photo from Phobos. Besides supporting docs, though, I thought Dreams also made a more intellectual argument, whereas Dragon based his on scifi cliches that he knew the ATS community would like.

Also, I thought it was unfair that Dragon just recycled his argument from the last debate. In a way, it seemed like he was hoping that, as you voted for his win last time, that you would automatically vote for him this time.

Dreams made a mistake, though, in spending too much time responding to that photo, as that discussion just turned into one that rested on resources (though, in this case, Dreams' resources were more legitimate, like I said above, than drags). Instead of talking about composite pictures for so long, dreams should have discussed his points about culture and mythology more. He fell, I think, for Dragon's red hearing.

Now, I cast my vote based on what I just said, but, I think it should bve noted, that Dreams went into this match after there was conflict on this site about Dragon's invincibility... and how he was an expert on alien issues. So, though this history from outside the debate didn't affect my vote, I think it should be noted that dreams was fighting uphill from the start (especially since he had to re-fight Illmatic's battle).

Also, looking at old posts, I see that Dreams believes he saw an alien once. Kudos to him for taking the position that he did.

I've played up the part of the ditzy sorority girl, here, but i hop that doesn't make you think anything less of wehat I've just said. To repat myself: Dreams, if all things are even, won... but Dragon probably won in context of what people on this site believe to be true... I voted for Dreams, as he seemed to have the best objective argument.

F-G

PS I don't mean to put-down dragon at all, though, as, like Dreams said in one of his last posts, I respect the courgae that it took to offer up a UFO pic as being real in a debate.

[Edited on 15-7-2003 by FunGirl]

I voted for onlyinmydreams for A couple of reasons. I thought Dragonrider and onlyinmydreams were equal in there level of debating. Dragonrider lost a few points for putting a picture and link in one post. Nothing personal Dragonrider.

Just to clarify, the pic came from the same link, therefore, not a breach of debate rules.

I realize the pic came from the link. The rules however sate "one link or graphic per post"

Long time ATS reader, first time poster:

I voted for Dreams, simply because he took the time to start off with the most obvious question---- How/why are they getting here? Dragonrider's reply, about the Electrokinetic engines, was very sensible, but only, as funnygirl said, within the context of this site, as the EK engines require that you believe in other conspiracy stuff, while Dreams stayed within the world of rockets and things that are provable.

Dreams was wrong, I believe, in dropping this issue too soon, though. Anyone with any aeronautical or engineering experience can tell you that insterstellar flight requires such a high technological AND manufacturing level that to undertake it would imply tech far beyond even theoretical EK engines. In my judgement, Dreams conceded the propulsion issue to Dragonrider too early (as he seemed to just accept all statements about EK power). However, as i'm writing this, I realize that this may have been a tactical judgement on his part. Perhaps he saw a debate about EK engines as, in itself, giving in to Dragon, as it would make them sound more realistic for spaceflight purposes, while, in reality, they cannot make something go faster than light, and so still necessitate a starship as large as manhatten to carry a crew plus supplies to earth from another star.

So, I guess that I am not voting for Dreams as much as I am voting against Dragon's crutch arguments. I guess I have faith that Dreams wanted us to see them, on their own, as infeasible, as he himself implied in his second reply, I think.

Across

Originally posted by ilovepizza
I realize the pic came from the link. The rules however sate "one link or graphic per post"

Also, the rules say that you only have so many hours to post a reply. Sure, Dreams didn't seem to really care about the time delay between Dragon's postings (if anything he seemed to be happy just to be in the debate), but i don't think he realized that his opponent could dig up more counter-arguments in 4 days than he normally would be able to in 12 hours. The longer the delay, the greater the research that can be done. Dreams should have called Dragon on the time issue during that second to last period when Dragon had all of that time to research the mythic angle Dreams brought up.

since this is a poll I'm bumping it up... I apologize if participants aren't allowed to bump up polls they're apart of... otherwise, though, it looks like it will fall off of the page

After reading through it twice it was a hard decision i voted for Dreams as i thought he put up the better case..

But as i said it was a hard one to call...

For the record, when do the polls close, here?

I was going to give 72 hours on all poles... I dont think that the last ones ever did close...

And wow! Both of you did an increduble job on your side of the debate. I had to really think long and hard about who was more believable. I thought Dragons side was more believable, though I can't really say if it's fair or not, because I believe, therefore I would surely relate more to what DR was saying. So you have my vote DR.
Mag

*I really do know how to spell 'incredible'*

[Edited on 7/17/03 by magestica]

Hey guys dont forget to vote! (Bumping the thread)

If there are no objections, I will shut voting at 6 PM central tomorrow (7/18/03)

In the future, I think that bumping debate vote threads should be done by third parties.... so that they don't coincide with popularity surges among contemporary threads... Both D-R and I did this, so I am not accusing anyone.

Cleopatra was a bad ruler, though Can't blame D-R for playing off of my fanmail from that. It makes electoral sense.

PSS: OIMD versus D-R will soon be Gore versus Bush 2 in ATS land, I predict

DR, although he gave you a run for your money, I think you did a great job.

PSS: OIMD versus D-R will soon be Gore versus Bush 2 in ATS land, I predict Posted by OIMD

OK, just so there is no chance of interference...

WILLIAM!!!!!!!!!!!

MAKE SURE YOU LOCK THIS THREAD!!!!!!!! 6 PM, NO LATER!!!!!!!!!!

For the record:


I did not mean to complain about how this thread was being handled... I was just temporarily frustrated at having a **** disintegrate after having seen the opposition boost this thread up at a moment where I was supporting PART of what an unpopular poster was saying. I was momentarily upset, which I hope you will understand.

I believe that D-R is being as fair as he can be when moderating the debate threads and support him 100%. I retract my previous statement and believe that he was just bumping the thread when it fell into disuse, not when it gave him an advantage.

Originally posted by dragonrider
If there are no objections, I will shut voting at 6 PM central tomorrow (7/18/03)

I'd like to say that this debate was a lot of fun, even if it sounded, at times, like I was being over-sarcastic or like a UFO buff basher. like I said before, I really respect the fact that DragonRider was willing to "put up" with the image from Fobos 2. That was very balsy, I thought... and, if D-R had shown the Lubbock lights or 1953 washington photos I would have been sunk, so it was sorta dumb of me to make the "put up..." challenge.

I also had a lot of fun talking about aliens from the perspective of them being mythological figures for the modern era. Certainly, and even if you don't believe in my exact arguments, we can probably all see how, over history, mankind has used his creativety to give birth to beings that are, often, far more interesting than he is (or is it really the reverse of that?).

Personally, I am a firm believer in the existence of real, living extraterrestrial beings, and I believe that they have been visiting the Earth with high frequency since WW2. I do not believe every tale out there, however, and still believe that the aliens are, more or less, scientists, explorers, and merchantmen "Trying to make [their] way throughout the universe," as Jango Fett would say.

I hope everyone out there has enjoyed the debate and, again, I want to applaud D-R for his excellent work.

Jim

Guys,

I was too late to vote... so it doesn't really matter but...

You both did an excellent job on the debate... I am not talking about wether i agree or disagree with the subject as that really does not matter. The subject is a tool for the discussion... I've never seen such a good and close debate as yours... my hat goes off to both of you... you did a splendid job...

Peace,

MrFreeze