European countries cannot justify Insulting Islam under the excuse of freespeech.

Following the Publish of Prophet Muhammad cartoon pictures that offended Muslims. European countries such as :Germany , Italy ,spain and other countries have republished the pictures under the execuse of freespeech. I want to show you that these actions cannot be justified under freespeech execuse. I want to show you that European goverments have double standards about what is freespeech and what is not.

Attacking Islam under the execuse of freespeech is not valid. For that execuse to be valid you have to guarantee that :
All parties has to be treated equally and must be given equal rights of freespeech. This is not achieved in Eurpoe. The one abvious examples is that Jews enjoy special treatment that protects them and their religion from any crtitisicm.

So either you allow offending every one or just prohibit offending them all.

I will show examples of how selective freespeech rights are in Europe.

Irving, a British historian is jailed for denying the Holocaust :

Irving, a British historian, is currently languishing in jail in Vienna, awaiting trial in February next year for denying the Holocaust. He was arrested in November while on a speaking tour of Austria for comments he made in the country over 15 years ago. Back then he allegedly made two speeches in which he denied that there were any gas chambers under the Nazis (he has apparently since revised his views and now accepts that there may have been a few such devices). Holocaust denial is a crime in Austria, and if found guilty Irving could be jailed for up to 10 years (2). His case has not become an international cause célèbre

www.spiked-online.com...

Wow .. 10 years sentence for denying the Holocaust… WOW.. JUST WOW.
Is that freespeech?
The writer cannot express his opinions in the civilized Europe.

when it comes to free speech it's all or nothing: we either have it or we don't. And if we were to have free speech for one writer but not for another, then we wouldn't have free speech at all.

www.spiked-online.com...

Exactly that is what I am talking about

another example:

A Pubilsher was Jailed and Fined in France for publishing an "anti Semitic" book :

On Wednesday, the court in Nanterre sentenced the publiser of "Al Qalam" books to three months in prison and $10,000 euro fine for publishing an "anti Semitic" book by Israel Shamir entitled "The Other Face of Israel." He also prohibited the sale of this book.

The court convicted Abdelila Cherifi Alaoui, of "inciting discrimination and encouraging hate and violence" against another religion.

In addition to the jail term and fine, Al Qalam must pay 12,000 euros damages and 1,500 euros in legal costs to the "International League Against Racism and Anti Semitism."

Finally, the publisher has 30 days to withdraw copies from stores with a penalty for 100 euros for every book remaining after the 30 days.

The Court was motivated by the fact that Shamir always refers to the "Jews" and presents them as dominating the world, as well as being engaged in fomenting a "thrid world war."

www.rense.com...

The writer is christian:

The author who is a Jew who converted to Christianity is accused of being in the mainstream of the anti-Semitic tradition, especially by referring to the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" as a (genuine) "political statement."

www.rense.com...


I will show you something interesting , in several European countries there are already some laws that prohibit the Display of Materials Offensive to Religious Beliefs :

Germany:

In Germany, Section 166 of the Criminal Code forbids insults to a religion or "Weltanschauung" (world outlook), publicly or by dissemination of publications. It states:
1. Whoever publicly or by distribution of printed materials insults religious belief or Weltanschauung of others in manner that reasonably could be expected to disturb public peace, is subject to[punishment]
2. The same applies to persons who publicly insult a church or other association devoted to a religion or Weltanschauung.

www.interights.org...

Why did Germany republish the pictures? Aren’t those pictures materials insults religious belief or Weltanschauung of others in manner that reasonably could be expected to disturb public peace ?

Spain :

In Spain, though the crime of blasphemy was abolished in 1988, the Constitutional Court has ruled that the right to freedom of expression, broadly protected by Article 20 of the Constitution, can be subject to restrictions aimed both at the protection of the rights of others as well as at the protection of other constitutionally protected interests. The extent to which "rights of others" may justify a restriction is construed narrowly by the Court; generally speaking, the "other" must be an identified individual whose fundamental rights have been directly affected by the expression.

www.interights.org...

Even in Denamark there are such similar law:

In Denmark, while a law prohibiting blasphemy exists under Section 140 of the Danish Penal Code, it has not been used since 1938. The Danish Penal Code also contains a provision (Section 266b) against expressions that threaten, deride or degrade on the grounds of race, colour, national or ethnic origin, belief or sexual orientation. That provision, however, has never been used against statements offensive to religion.

www.interights.org...

And Norway:

In Norway, Section 142 of the Penal Code provides the possibility of punishment for any person who "publicly insults or in an offensive manner shows contempt for any religious creed or for the doctrines or worship of any religious community lawfully existing here." However, this provision has not been applied by the courts since 1936

www.interights.org...


you can see that there are laws in Europe that prohibit offending or insulting any religious creed.
Why these laws are not implemented when the offence is against Muslims?!!
Do the governments in the European countries have selective memory regarding the laws that they have?

Another example:

Belgian Holocaust denier held at Schiphol

Belgian Holocaust denier held at Schiphol
BRUSSELS -- Belgian negationist [European word for Holocaust denier] and extreme-rights publicist Siegfried Verbeke has been arrested at Schiphol Airport in Amsterdam [Holland] and might be extradited to Germany for trial. A German judge issued an international arrest warrant against Verbeke at the end of last year because he cast doubt over the internet whether the Nazis actually killed six million Jews in World War II.

www.fpp.co.uk...

He was arrested in the airport !! and might be extradited to Germany for trial !!!!
Why ? what he did?
Is he a terrorist, to deserve such treatment?

Most of you said something like how silly is making a problem over some cartoon pictures. Now I will show you how silly is Italy when it banned a poster !!

Poster banned in Milan:

The poster, by French fashion house Marithé and François Gribaud, is a version of Leonardo da Vinci's work with an almost all-female cast. Angelic-looking women clad in the company's "casual chic" pose around a long table as Christ and his apostles. One man, John the Apostle, sits on a woman's lap, his torso bare and jeans riding low.

www.guardian.co.uk...

Here is the poster that they are talking about

In Milan, where Leonardo's fresco is preserved and the influence of the Vatican is never far away, city authorities have banned it.

Their decision follows a ruling by the city advertising watchdog last month. This Last Supper "inevitably recalls the very foundations of the Christian faith", said the Istituto di Autodisciplina Pubblicitaria. "This kind of image, with a high concentration of theological symbols, cannot be recreated and paro died for commercial ends without offending the religious sensitivities of at least part of the population."

www.guardian.co.uk...

The civilized Italy that enjoys freespeech have banned a poster.
aren’t they silly that they banned a poster? shouldn’t they grew up and not acting Childish?

The evidence is overwhelming that European governments have selective memories and double standards about what is freespeech and what is not.



[edit on 3-2-2006 by Deep_Blue]

[edit on 3-2-2006 by Deep_Blue]

[edit on 3-2-2006 by Deep_Blue]

[edit on 3-2-2006 by Deep_Blue]

European countries such as :Germany , Italy ,spain and other countries have republished the pictures under the execuse of freespeech.

What about Jordan?
The Jordan Shihan Weekly magazine reprinted the cartoons too?

I think you "accidentally" left Jordan off your list, didn't you?



[edit on 2/3/06 by makeitso]

Deep Blue, that is an excellent point. Everyone is so quick to support the freedom to make fun of Islam. But, when you do it towards Jews, you are imprisoned for being an evil Nazi sympathizer.

You have my Way Above Top Secret Award for exposing this hypocrisy.

[edit on 3-2-2006 by Jamuhn]

Well, I cherish my right to be offensive.

I think the issue with holocaust denial is not an exact parallel, because it has to do with revisionist history and hate speech, that is to say speech that incites people to do violence against a specific group.

That's really not the case with these cartoons. This is more like prohibiting sales of pork because some folks won't eat it. It's just more self-centered egotism from the fringe.

The Jewish lobby is altogether too powerful, and too rabid, for my tastes. That being said, I support the freedom of artists and writers to express themselves as they see fit, with the simple caveat that speech/art designed specifically to incite violence cannot be tolerated.

Were the cartoons in bad taste, considering Islam's prohibition against idolatry? Yes. But legislating and enforcing standards of taste is impossible and foolish to even attempt.

Originally posted by Deep_Blue
Attacking Islam under the execuse of freespeech is not valid.

Yes it is.

The one abvious examples is that Jews enjoy special treatment that protects them and their religion from any crtitisicm.

No they don't.

Nazism is outlawed in europe because the nazi party was an organization that tried to conquer all of europe. Naturally enough holocaust denial is seen, correctly, not as 'edgy scholarship' but rather as hate speech, inciment to violence, and, most importantly, nazism, which is illegal (in europe).

As far as these cartoons, I still haven't been able to see them. I can see how they could've been of a nature that does nothing more than call for violence against muslims, and if it did then it'd be illegal.

There's a very simple way to test this.

Which of the following should be illegal:





Answer: none of them.

Originally posted by makeitso

What about Jordan?
The Jordan Shihan Weekly magazine reprinted the cartoons too?

I think you "accidentally" left Jordan off your list, didn't you?

[edit on 2/3/06 by makeitso]

The answer of your question is already in the post you have provided. The editor of Shihan newspaper was sacked immediately, and the copies were withdrawn from the market:

Amman (dpa) - The owners of Jordan's Shihan Weekly on Thursday fired the paper's editor for republishing three of the 12 Danish cartoons depicting Islam's Prophet Mohammed which have triggered outrage in the Arab world and a campaign to boycott Danish products.

"The Arab Printers Company which owns Shihan Weekly has decided to fire its editor Jihad Momani as of Thursday after republishing the blasphemous caricatures," the firm said in a statement.

The company said that it had also decided to withdraw the paper's new issue from the market and vowed to "punish all those involved in such irresponsible and shocking action."

The Jordanian government condemned Shihan's reproduction of the cartoons and said the paper had "committed a grave mistake and should apologise immediately."

www.bangkokpost.com...

another source:

AMMAN (Reuters) - The publisher of a Jordanian tabloid weekly newspaper has sacked a chief editor who reprinted cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad that have caused outrage across the Islamic world.

BTW have you forgot accidentally to mention the above facts?.

Also check this:
Jordan king condemns Prophet Muhammad caricatures

King Abdullah II of Jordan condemned the cartoons in comments published Friday by Petra. ' Equally, whilst we respect and revere freedom of speech, we condemn needless desecration and injury of Islamic sensibilities, such as the recent cartoons misrepresenting and vilifying my ancestor the Prophet (may peace and blessings be upon him)

[edit on 3-2-2006 by Deep_Blue]

Originally posted by Nygdan


As far as these cartoons, I still haven't been able to see them.

The 12 cartoons published in Denmark's Jyllands-Posten in September 2005.

According to external image, the Muslim minority in Denmark in November 2005 decided to send a delegation of imams to the Middle East to discuss the issue of these cartoons with senior officials and prominent Islamic scholars.

Danish Muslims "Internationalize" Anti-Prophet Cartoons

"We want to internationalize this issue so that the Danish government would realize that the cartoons were not only insulting to Muslims in Denmark but also to Muslims worldwide," said Abu Laban."

And THEN things became different:

zombietime: Mohammed Image Archive - Depictions of Mohammed Throughout History

[There] the imams openly distributed a booklet that showed not only the original 12 cartoons [from the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten] ,but three fraudulent anti-Mohammed depictions that were much more offensive than the ones published in Denmark.

It is now thought that these fake images that had NOT been published by ANY newspaper are what ignited the outrage in the Muslim world.

The newspaper Ekstra Bladet obtained a copy of that booklet and presented the three offensive images on its Web site

(direct link to those three:
- M with a pig snout, singing into a microphone
- M having sex with a dog
- A sketch of M as a demonic pedophile)

Again: I share the anger of Muslims - humiliating religion is a dishonest lack of respect.

But they used FAKED Cartoons - fabricated by Muslims.




[edit on 3-2-2006 by Riwka]

European countries cannot justify Insulting Islam under the excuse of freespeech.

Some British Muslims enjoy the right of freespeech in London

external imageexternal image


and some in Jarkata


Muslim protesters shout slogans in front of a banner
which says Danish Ambassador - Kill the Danish beast


[edit on 3-2-2006 by Riwka]

I don't understand.

Are those the 12 cartoons that everyone is complaining about?

What actual news source is reporting that the arab activists have made fake ones?

Riwaka

I understand that there were misinformation and exaggerations that made the situation worse. But the point is that publishing any picture of Muhammad is offensive to Muslims:

As I said before in another thread

Originally posted by Deep_Blue
The problem is that Europeans are ignorant with the importance of Mohammad in Islam.. it is really really really serious offence to just draw a picture (any picture) of Mohammad , so its worse to make comic cartoons about him.

So any picture even if it was perfect beautiful drawing will be harmful to Muslims.


[edit on 3-2-2006 by Deep_Blue]

Any moral justification that Islam has over the cartoons will be lost upon the death of the first innocent person. After that western stereotypes of Islam as a brutish facist regime will be reinforced.

If you can't see the difference between a holocaust denier, whose work not only makes a lie of history, but also inspires neo nazis, and 12 cartoons lampooning Mohammed, then i really can't be bothered to describe it to you.

You are just trying to find a justification for your beliefs by twisting issues to fit your agenda.

Sorry Deep blue, until this thread I had a high opinion of your posts. Now you have fallen to the level of the anti islamic posters you despise.

[edit on 3-2-2006 by Netchicken]

Are those the 12 cartoons that everyone is complaining about?

Yes, per Riwkas post, these are the original 12 cartoons

Nygdan
What actual news source is reporting that the arab activists have made fake ones?

The newspaper Ekstra Bladet is reporting about the fake ones which were distributed by imams.

when a delegation of Danish imams went to the Middle East to discuss the issue of the cartoons with senior officials and prominent Islamic scholars, the imams openly distributed a booklet that showed not only the original 12 cartoons, but three fraudulent anti-Mohammed depictions that were much more offensive than the ones published in Denmark.

It is now thought that these three bonus images are what ignited the outrage in the Muslim world. The newspaper Ekstra Bladet obtained a copy of the booklet and presented the three offensive images on its Web site.

www.zombietime.com...

Great work Riwka!

Originally posted by Netchicken
Sorry Deep blue, until this thread I had a high opinion of your posts.
[edit on 3-2-2006 by Netchicken]

why ? because every single word I said is the truth? or because Iam not brainwashed like many masses?

dont expect me to deny the truth to please your ignorance.

BTW jailing a writers for reasons like : anti-sematic opinions or denying the Holocaust. is a direct violation to Humans right of freespeech.

I think part of the problem is that most Muslims live in closed, top-down societies where governments have no trouble stifling a free press. Westerners do not.

In the west, there are no organs set up for these kinds of government interventions. Unlike Jordan, Bush cannot "sack" a newspaper editor. If a warrant was written forcing the paper to fire the editor, I'm not sure how it would be enforced. He could get an injunction and keep his job while he appealed the decision. That could take a year or more.



And, while holocaust denial may be a crime in Europe, it is not in the USA. So for Americans, your argument falls flat. And yes, you can find antisemitic newspapers in many "mom & pop" newstands and shops in working-class neighborhoods.

Anybody every hear of The Spotlight ? It "toed the line" of anti-semitism, and was in business for years. The source I linked says a circulation of over 100,000 in it's heyday. I worked on several ranches where there the current week's edition was left in the bathroom as reading material.

I am routinely offended by stuff I see. But God is not.

.

deep_blue...all of europe isnt one country and , your hypocracy argument is flawed since danish law isnt french, british, etc law.

muslims need to stop acting like their special then use the jew card when someone points this out.

the article these cartoons were included with show it wasnt about hate, maybe try reading things before saying its hate, youre assuming.

how can you compare nazism, hate and denial of mass murder to religious blasphemy?

hell your prophet was a mass murderer of jews and pagans so i dont see why he deserves any respect

I think that this whole issue illustrates the coming divide between the world.
Europe is now almsot exclusively a secular society, the US is split between old fashioned moralistic society and a European style one.
Most of the Eastern world (Middle East, Asia and parts of Africa) are religious societies.
We have come to beleive in the west that the days of old are gone forever, that history has been left behind and that mankind is on the verge of attaining a near godhood in all things...9-11 should have woken us up to the sad fact that history always comes to bite us in the ass.
You cannot dispute, the Muslims who hate the west don't hate us for having more this or that, they hate us for not BELEIVING.
Down with the infidel...What do you think that phrase means? politley have a sit down over tea and biscuits to work out a compromise?
Absolutely not!
If this cartoon scandal proves anything its that there are more than enough of those in the Islamic community willing not just to die for their beleifs, but to make OTHERS DIE FOR THEIR BELEIFS AS WELL.
No amount of negotiation with religious terrorists will solve anything, except that you'll lose the negotiators...well, you might find their heads somewhere down the road.
We're not talking about IRA style freedom fighters if you will, who could be negotiated with and whose goal was to have a place in government and an equal voice, rather you're dealing with a set of fanatics (not all Muslims are this by the way) whose only goal is the complete EXTERMINATION of those whose beleifs differ from their own.
in my view the west will lose the war on terror, simply becasue most of us beleive it isn't a serious enough matter to tackle. There are enough fanatics in the Muslim religion to eventually form a worldwide campaign to wipeout all forms of secularism, Judaism, Christianity, hinduism and anything else that stands in Allah's way.
If we read history we'll understand how to deal with this threat, if we ignore it and move forward, pretending that our own governments are the evildoers and not the poor undereducated in Islamic states...
Christianity had its crusades, Judaism had its own controversy in retaken Palestine, Islam has its turn now, and I doubt the West will survive.

Originally posted by Deep_Blue

why ? because every single word I said is the truth? or because Iam not brainwashed like many masses? direct violation to Humans right of freespeech.

no, youre blinded by religious dogma...

it is? my here i thought you were arguing opposite regarding islam? dont be a hypocrite here.

Originally posted by Deep_Blue
I understand that there were misinformation and exaggerations that made the situation worse. But the point is that publishing any picture of Muhammad is offensive to Muslims:

Then they should turn their eyes away. They cannot control the behavior of the whole world based on their religion. The whole world does not follow their religion and no one HAS to respect their religion.

So any picture even if it was perfect beautiful drawing will be harmful to Muslims.

It does not 'harm' them. They take offense. That's their problem. If these cartoons or pictures are printed in a country that has free speech, then anyone is free to take offense, but there's nothing they can do about it.

Although I don't agree with the "big picture" of Spacedoubt's view of the west, I do agree that this cartoon controversy is just one more step.

Suppose all the European newspapers fired their editiors and did exactly what they were ordered to by mullahs on the other side of the planet.

What would happen then?

Next week, there'd be another scandal, another instance of "offending of muslim sensibilities" And Europe would be asked to bend over backwards yet again, in the name of pleasing people who will never be pleased.

I suspect that Europeans and the West in general will prove to be quick learners when it comes to these kinds of tactics.

.

Deep_Blue
The editor of Shihan newspaper was sacked immediately, and the copies were withdrawn from the market:

And the Danish newspaper pulled the cartoons, and appologized also.

Also check this:
Jordan king condemns Prophet Muhammad caricatures quote:
King Abdullah II of Jordan condemned the cartoons in comments published Friday by Petra. ' Equally, whilst we respect and revere freedom of speech, we condemn needless desecration and injury of Islamic sensibilities, such as the recent cartoons misrepresenting and vilifying my ancestor the Prophet (may peace and blessings be upon him)

And the Danish government condemned and appolgized for the cartoons.

So what is your point? I called you on your soliloquy condeming europeans, while you blindly ignore the fact that Jordan published them too. Are you now going to boycott Jordan or not? Both did the same thing.


[edit on 2/3/06 by makeitso]