Billy Meier called the New Nostradamus!?!?

Thanks for the reply & links

I've seen the tree video you mentioned. It doesn't look hoaxed, in the traditional sense...... It just looks bizarre..

I'll get reading up.

Hey JR, one of those guys wouldn't happen to be Stevens would it?
I mean I've looked through a lot of material on Stevens and cant find anything that would lead me to believe anything he said about any photos. Maybe MH has some secret info on him that I can't find.
Good luck gettin them royalty checks.

[edit on 1/4/06 by longhaircowboy]

I think Billy Meier is very interesting, particularly his predictions,and I still think there is a possibility that he is true, but, unfortunately his case is too dubious.

I had a debate once at the Steelmark boards with his followers, which were very well versed in his materials and owned his books. I started the debate inclined towards believing him, but by the end of it, I was almost convinced he was a hoax. His followers had a really hard time arguing with me, and I even managed to bring a few of them to my line of thinking.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
I think Billy Meier is very interesting

I find it very interesting too. Like why anyone would believe him.

What I find intresting is that MH was on here and didn't respond to any of the Meier threads.

This argument just keeps going and going and going..... lucky for us that its so entertaining. A lot of people are reading this thread, and yet not many people are posting their opinions....

Are there any supporters of the one armed farmer beyond MH here?

Or are most casual drop in readers, like myself, just left s'n-word'ing and showing the pathetic photos to friendswhen we go to Micheal Horn's cherished pro Meier web pages.

The wedding cake and car photo..... c'mon........ can any sane, grown and reasonably minded person actually look at that and go 'Yeah, thats the evidence we need! Its just so real looking!'

I don't think so. MH wold have more credibility if he just admitted that those photos are 100% bad forgeries. Not that he deserves to get any tips.

Do I qualify for a round of abuse yet?? Or should I keep posting on this topic?

Good job to the other players here... keep on keeping it real!

Originally posted by lensphlere
The wedding cake and car photo..... c'mon........ can any sane, grown and reasonably minded person actually look at that and go 'Yeah, thats the evidence we need! Its just so real looking!'

But Len, these photos are the ones that credible scientists have declared are legitimate. Who are you little man, to question the likes of JPL, Nippon TV, Robert Post, Jim Dilettoso, Marcel Vogel, and the host of all the rest?

::::shaking head:::::

Help me...I'm channeling Michael Horn...why's my hair falling out?

[edit on 6-1-2006 by sanctum]

A couple of quick notes, anytime anyone wants to post their own photo versions of the wedding cake ship I'd be very interested in seeing them, you know, showing that we're not juust dealing with armchair experts here. As for the little parts that Ritzmann wants us to believe were used in the wedding cake photos, somehow I just don't think that they're of sufficent size to be visible, as the objects on the ship itself clearly are in the shots that show that (contrary to the "expert" opinions here) the "model" is far larger than 6".

And as for ducking the tough questions, listen to the free radio interview on my site, not only did I not duck any questions, I didn't get around to insulting the host. I do enjoy the poster nonetheless. I might also suggest that in order to be as successful as I am in the hair department one should look for my product bumber stickers out there: Lose Hair Now - Ask Me How.

Originally posted by lensphlere
Are there any supporters of the one armed farmer beyond MH here?

oh definately

not so much a fan of Meier but of his writing, very interesting to read

jritzmann: whats in it for you....you seem to spend more time debunking Meier than any sane person would

[edit on 5-1-2006 by nukunuku]

Originally posted by 8Michael12
A couple of quick notes, anytime anyone wants to post their own photo versions of the wedding cake ship I'd be very interested in seeing them, you know, showing that we're not juust dealing with armchair experts here.

But Mr Horn, I cannot for the life of me be tempted into making some crappy UFO model out of ball bearings and hubcaps.... because I am not stark raving mad or a defrauder of the weak eyed and the gullible.

Furthermore: my judgment cannot be swayed on the fakeness of the UFO, because:

we all see things in a common way, we get used to perspectives and shading and optical effects and so on, and we also get used to the way that reality looks when it is captured on film. There is, in short, an unspoken consensus amungst citizens about what real things look like.

WE also often know when we are looking at fake images. Looking at the wedding cake and car photo is like looking at an early Japanese Godzilla film still...... consensus reality tells us that even if we can believe in gigantic dinosaurs eating cars, an image of Godzilla doing it will not appease our belief system. Why? Because the dinosaur is clearly made of some kind of rubber, and the cars are quite clearly toys. How do we know? Well, we just do! Its called consensus reality. A bad special effect cannot hope to convince us. I saw King Kong recently and yawned all the through the CGI effects. They still look fake, and so I don't want to see anymore CGI movies untill they improve.

Besides, your style of argument is so abstract, it can be used to try to prove that a Godzilla film still is real. All you have to say is

'Can you go out and make a Godzilla that looks like this Godzilla? Untill you do I will not listen to your armchair-expert babblings. This Godzilla photo was once checked by 13 Kodak employees, and Meier wrote a book about Godzilla in a Swiss only edition (long lost) in 1957. And besides, how does that rubbery texture of the dinosaurs skin reflect the light with such incredibly strange frequency shifting quality? Nobody could possibly make that rubber like effect using earthlike rubber, and so it must not be rubber at all!

I do have to commend you on your tenacity though. YOu guys go to such extremes to defend the undefendable. I guess you can fool some of the people all of the time, right?

I have heard the argument that we think the wedding-cake UFO is fake because we don't know what a real one would look like: i.e: our expectations are way off base and so we have a Pleidian mind-lock or whatever it is. But guess what, we do know what photos of cars at night-time look like. They don't look like toy cars in pitch black space. If you defend the UFO you have to defend the car in the photo as well. And if you claim that that is a real car..... well your consensus reality is way, way outta whack buddy.

Way, way, way outta whack.

I personally belive that you guys (Meier advocates) are just members of a cult, trying to suck in new members. Its a lot like Christianity: You know you can't win the arguments, but by using all your energy to keep on arguing and preaching anyway, you know that there are always some alienated and desperate people out there, looking for a new belief system to hang their hat on..... that are gonna sign up as members.

Hi all. This is my first post here, though I registered a while back. I must say, this thread is entertaining...

Originally posted by TerraX
As Cowboy pointed out, something can be said about Meier's prophecies. In the link he provided the 'Henoch Prophecies' by Meier can be read. Here's a relevant excerpt of that article;
( www.nexusmagazine.com... )

SNIP
This will be at the time that tremendous natural disasters will hit Italy and its people, causing severe hardship. But this will also be at the time when Vesuvius could become active again and could spread tremendous havoc.
France will not only be invaded by the aggressors from the outside, but will also be conquered from within as a result of collaborative forces and other forces. This can be envisioned as being the many foreigners of a different religion living in France at that time, and specifically Islam, which will be this force working from within. Once France has fallen, a war to conquer Spain and England will take place. Subsequently, an alliance with the forces of the aggressors will be formed, which will invade Scandinavia."
(Emphasis mine)

I know this has been brought up many times already Mr. Horn, but please enlighten me as to why the above excerpt justifies the following headline on your website:

"NOVEMBER 23, 1981: MEIER SPECIFICALLY WARNED OF FRENCH RIOTS"
( www.theyfly.com... )

The above link gives another quote, specifically

Italy and France will be shaken, due to revolutionaries, who murderously and by arson destroy every order: Paris will be destroyed from within and burnt down. The inhabitants themselves are those, who lay Paris into rubble and ashes via murder, arson and revolution...
(Emphasis mine)

Again, how the hell do those two quotes justify YOU saying Billy Meier "accurately predicted" the Paris riots that began on 27th October 2005 and lasted for twenty days? Please enlighten me as to how 8,973 vehicles torched, 2,888 arrests and 126 police injured equates to Paris being destroyed and France falling??

Quite simply, you are WRONG. You come across as being reasonably intelligent so I would have to surmise that you know you are wrong but there are many other people out there who will believe you anyway, if you are insistent enough. If it helps selling the DVD's who cares, right?

SNIP
"At the same time, as a civil war rages in Germany, an enormously bloody revolution will break out in England which will claim more lives than will be claimed by the civil war in Germany. And because England and Ireland have been at war for a long time already, due to the IRA and the police and military forces of England, the result will be (because this feud will continue up to that time) that this revolution will spread out to all of Ireland, especially affecting Northern Ireland. Many lives will be lost during a civil war in Wales, where differences between various parties will arise before the Third World War. Welsh and English forces will clash especially near Cymru, and claim many lives and cause great destruction."

Breathtaking in its inaccuracy. For one thing, England and Ireland haven't been at war for a very long time. At least not since the Anglo-Irish Treaty of 1921 which established the Irish Free State and secondly, haven't you heard the latest news regarding the IRA? I'm guessing you have not.

Further, It would be pretty difficult for Welsh and English forces to clash, seeing as they are both part of the same army. It may have been possible a few hundred years ago, you know when everything was seperate. There's now a place called The United Kingdom, you may have heard of it...

So, what are we to make of the rest of the so-called predictions? You guessed it.

Judging by most other posts in this thread, I wont be holding my breath awaiting a relevant response from you.

Have a nice day. No, really.

I have no wish to join in this thread nor support anyone but except to perhaps to discuss the 'nature' of predictions.

I will not deny that we live in strange world where there are things we cant easily explain, and that there are people with strange abilities, just as some who are good with art, or good with sciences, etc.

Many times as we lay on our beds and dream dreams, dont we find such dreams like movie scenes? In such scenes, do we see dates flash somewhere on the 'screen' of our minds?In our dreams, do we go count the damage or body bags?

Thus, when someone makes a prediction, can we say for certain that if there isnt any dates specified or the amount of destruction/deaths tallies, then it must be a hoax? A figment of imagination?

Perhaps, there is a better way to judge predictions, solely on the event happening than judge the person? For everyone can make a prediction, but how many can say they were acurate?

Edit:- My reason for this post is not to discourage or encourage beliefs in such abilities, for it is still a question to me. The only reason i do is because after watching the savage mauling of BM as a person, his visions as well as his supporters, i paused and thought further on this subject.

Prior to 911, CIA and FBI organisations would have laughed outright at anyone who claim to have visions of an aircraft slamming into WTC. But after being blamed for ineptitude in intelligence, there were reports of these university degree holders, the most cynical lots on earth, had invited science fiction writers to come up with ways in which terrorists would attack US and US interests.

Extrapoliating on it, i am sure these suited guys are trawling even predictions to assist them in their intelligence work, more so with known groups who had a few accurate predictions to their names.

Therefore, in my thinking, isnt it better to live and let live, then to hurl all sorts of abuse, right or wrong, on a subjective ability which not many possess or understand, not only on BM but for others as well? For sometimes, with the right prediction or at least the awareness/preparedness for a future event, lives may be saved, such as the 3000 who needlessly died in WTC if CIA or FBI had been more receptive and less cynical.

[edit on 5-1-2006 by SeekerofTruth101]

Originally posted by nukunuku
jritzmann: whats in it for you....you seem to spend more time debunking Meier than any sane person would

[edit on 5-1-2006 by nukunuku]

Nuk-
2 things, one, being that I believe that the UFO issue is a very important one. That it is polluted by cases such as this, is a big factor in the state that we are in with it: nowhere. Muddy waters dont clear up unless people get involved enough to try and sort out the mess. You cant do it one day then drop it. You have to be vigilant.

Two, I enjoy it. People think I hate Michael Horn. I dont. I actually like Michael, and I believe that he's not a "bad" guy. He's not the same guy you see throwing wicked insults here and there all the time. He can also be very fair at times. He's not a stupid man either. Whether or not he actually believes the Meier case is really for real or not, I dont know. But whatever he does really believe, it doesnt make him stupid one way or the other.

At the same time as you say the good things about him, in my opinion he's also one of the most venomous personalities in Ufo circles. But I've argued with worse.

One of the things most people dont look at within UFO research is the effect on people who arent directly touched by it. I find that to be one of the most fascinating facets, and seeing how one case effects Michael and others is never boring.

Maybe this has been posted before, I haven't bothered to read the entire thread about Mr. Eduard Meier. I used to be really interested in what Billy Meier had to say, until I read this little report.

www.iigwest.com...

It put the seed of doubt into my mind that made me re-read the prophesies with another point of view. Instead of reading with wide eyed fascination and hopeful belief, I read them more analytically, attempting to notice incongruities and falsehood. Does anyone really believe that he went back in time and hung out with Jesus, who wasn't actually Jesus? OH yeah, and the offer from the Plejarans to give him a new cool alien bionic arm, and Meier turning them down saying, "I don't want to endanger your annonymity"

Billy Meier is a man who makes a living off of this. He runs a cult, and in my opinion is worse than L. Ron Hubbard.

One of the things most people dont look at within UFO research is the effect on people who arent directly touched by it.

Well said. On that subject, I'll add that hoaxters, in general, are worse than any government disinformation or concerted attempt to conceal disclosure. Billy Meiers, for example, I don't have much of a problem with. I don't see him so much as a hoaxter as someone who is extremely imaginative. I think he's more of a prankster. I don't think he ever expected anyone to buy into his story, but certain people decided to make a philosophy out of his writing (again, fine with me) but to raise money have decided to maintain that his extraterrestrial story is true, so they can profit from the sale of the documentations (not talking about Michael, moreso about the FIGU cultists). Michael Horn is just a salesman. His job is to sell the story, regardless of how much evidence that contradicts the story is thrown in his face. In fact, if you ever get a chance, go listen to Michael's presentation. It's very good and quite persuasive (although nowhere near as persuasive as he might lead people to believe).

A much more egregious situation is when you have a true hoaxters, like Dan Burisch and Marcia McDowell, who use elements of UFO folklore to spin a yarn that is relatively persuasive because it plays on elements that some believe may be true. Dan and Marcia have taken it to the point of making it an ongoing drama, further confusing those with a casual interest in the UFO phenomena and making the whole field look foolish.

In general, though, I think that posters who suggest suspicion when they come to ATS and find people vigorously debunking the unproven claims of certain suspected hoaxters are doing the greatest disservice to the community -- no one needs any excuse to deny ignorance.

Well this is becoming a veritable love fest here, isn't it. I will be glad to affirm to Ritzmann and everyone else that I also don't hold any personal animosity, contrary to any appearances. I do agree that "mauling" Meier is not deserved, nor a mark of good character, especially since the charges of him being in it for the money or leading a cult are absolutely erroneous, as anyone who has ever spent time with him would know. Let's also keep in our minds an understanding that the way we treat others, justly or unjustly, will eventually come back to us in the way we are treated...sooner or later.

A cult usually operates based on a charismatic leader, a rigid belief system (to which all "followers" are required to adhere), the turning over of personal property and wealth to the cult/leader, a them-against-us mentality and active recruiting, among other things, none of which are in evidence with Meier or any of his associates. There is NO hierarchy in their relationship with each other, Meier has no more of a voice/vote in any of their common concerns than any other member. And we're talking about a very small group that never exceeds 49 people, and rarely attains that number.

As for the claims re money, FIGU is a very small non-profit organization that adheres to the strict Swiss laws governing such groups, and their books are open for examination, as I can personally attest. They sell their publications just above the actual cost to produce them and busy themselves also with international charity work. Their lifestyle is pretty high maintenance, i.e. the demands of living in a rugged rural area where they grow a certain amount of their food and have ongoing work in just maintaining their land, the trees, etc. If you notice anything at all as you go up to their property it's likely to be the significant amount of firewood that is stacked all along the way up the gravel road, not a bunch of Rolls-Royces.

For those that REALLY believe that Meier was able to just cruise around the countryside on his moped, hoaxing everything with one hand, etc., just traveling around the hilly, challenging area by car or on foot is enough to quickly disabuse you of that notion. But if one only sits and theorizes about it, it may seem so easy for someone to do this. The reality is strikingly different, which is why there is an occasional need to scream and holler in Meier's defense, since people's foolishness in building these dopey theories is so exasperating.

In other words, whoever is saying stuff about cults and financial motives is really barking up the wrong tree.

As for the fellow who made the ball-bearing comments, he immediately has no credibility. I may not be a machine shop expert but I've never seen ball bearings configured and machined the way the globes on the wedding cake ship are, that's laughable. And let's not gloss over my comment re the supposed small parts that Ritzmann thinks account for the items on the wedding cake ship. Watch the video with that ship in it, a few hundred feet from the camera, and one has to admit that it is no 6" model, so how big would those parts have to be...how big would that object have to be? Deardorff's analysis is pretty good in dispelling the notion of a model and cake pans, etc.

I do think that for clarity's sake Ritzmann should submit a succinct, detailed synopsis of his best case against the authenticity of the Meier photos. It needs to be very specific and demonstrably accurate, refuting the analyses done by Stevens, Deardorff, et al.

And again, my bottom line is that this case is enormously relevant to our future survival, "our" as in all of us. I can't prove that everything in the case is true and I regard that information as speculation that cannot be proven or disproven yet, for various reasons. But I stand firmly behind that which surpasses the standards of proof necessary for authentication.

Well not that its impossible that a one armed guy living in the swiss alps is a hoaxer, it just doesnt seem likely to me, even with all the fake pictures, cakes, what have you.

What was his motivation for a hoax? Did he need money? Did he desire to be famous? Is this his "getting back at the world" kind of thing?
Is Billy still alive?

J i agree UFOs are a very important topic, for me as well, but when you have government spreading tons of disinfo about it, looking for real evidence is like looking for the needle in the haystack...i think we were all looking at a picture of a real alien at some point while surfing the net, but becouse all of the disinformation, you just cant tell which one of the 100 photos is real, which ones are plastic dolls,....
same with UFOs. There must be plenty of real UFO pics around, but there is not one person with a sane mind that would ever say "this one is real", as at the end you know yourself you can actually fake everything and anything.
So maybe, just maybe, the pressure should be first and foremost put on the government, as they most probably spread more dissinfo than all "weekend hoaxers" together ever could.

So in case of Billy Meier, just like any other case involving UFOs and aliens, both points of view are completely valid to me. He might be either real, hoax, or, like in many cases, real events distorted beyond reason by the powers that be.

And if you ever want to see a real UFO, you know what you gotta do first? You gotta belive.

Hi nukunuku,

Billy is still alive and your observation about it being unlikely that someone in the Alps is behind a very sophisticated UFO hoax is worth emphasizing. Especially so when you realize the sheer volume, variety and abundance of (still irreproducible) physical evidence that was produced by a man in the 1970s without any technology (time, money, motive, collaborators,e tc.) to do so.

But the last thing that is required, especially in this case, is belief. A huge part of why we in this world are in very deep trouble is from beleif, faith, superstition, etc. We are encouraged to leave behind the Age of Belief for the Age of Knowledge.

Originally posted by 8Michael12
I do think that for clarity's sake Ritzmann should submit a succinct, detailed synopsis of his best case against the authenticity of the Meier photos. It needs to be very specific and demonstrably accurate, refuting the analyses done by Stevens, Deardorff, et al.

Well my first answer to that would be why...why when I did that very thing on one specific issue at PAR, listed with operations and calibrations, which then I was promptly dissected for not "documenting enough"?

I'll do it. But I'll expect someone to actually read it, and take the time to leave behind such ridiculous crutches as "plausible deniability", and other wild suppositions.

You want me to mount the case images? No problem. Dont expect it in a few days. I'll go over as many of the photos and films as I have available to me....I have alot, some of which (in the way of photos), I'm told none have ever seen. How's that for a teaser.

Gimme a few weeks. I'd say that fair.

Jeff,

That's fine, appreciate it.

Now, for those who still think that Meier is "making it all up" or just one of those "anybody could have said that" lucky guessers, I'd like everybody to send in their documentation regarding their own predicitions on the spread of the bird flu. Then please compare them to the following information.

Here are excerpts of conversations from September 25, 2005 (official contact No. 400) and from October 15th. 2005 (official contact No. 401) the following is given:

Ptaah … Dieses Geschehen trägt sich zu, wenn an der Grenze zu Europa, und zwar in der Türkei, die Vogelseuche durch Zugvögel auf Hausgeflügel übergreift, während aber auch die gleiche Seuche in Rumänien eindringt und Alarm auslösen wird.

Ptaah… this event carries itself when at the borders of Europe, in fact in Turkey, the bird epidemy spreads (itself) on house birds (poultry) through migratory birds, while however also the same epidemic invades Romania and will cause alarm.

It confirms the information given by Ptaah that the Flu would appear in TURKEY AND ROMANIA.

Now you can find the actual document in German that has been posted online for the past few months at:

www.figu.org...

Please compare the info with:

www.spiegel.de...

Then this:

www.spiegel.de...

Which is now contradicted by this:

today.reuters.com...

Which essentially confirms the information given to Meier, which specified Turkey and Romania as places where the flu would spread and be noted. For the sake of your own credibility, please do some homework before - or instead of - the usual noises attempting to dismiss what is going on here. As I said, this case is about our future survival, and far less about the means of transportation used by those who have come here from a considerable distance to try to wake us up to the dangers we face, which are largely of our own making.