the confederate flag

Originally posted by Fighting Kentuctian
To those who think secession was illegal, well I guess you obviously believe that might makes right.

[
Actually that was the strategy of teh confederacy. They couldn't legally address their concerns or do it diplomatically and properly, so they raised an army and went to war with the United States.

The states were told they would keep their soverngity when they signed the contract (CONstitution) to enter the union. So were they lied to when they later tried to leave? Is this country the mafia, where you can join but never leave?

Correct. Upon entering the union, one doesn't get to leave, whether its a state or an individual citizen.

If the states knew this in 1787-89 none would have signed the CONstitution.

And what do you base that on?

Originally posted by Otts
Just a note to the author of this thread... could we change "confederit" to the proper spelling "Confederate"? I think about it every time I see it.

Thanks

I miss spell when i type and dont have a spell check. if my spelling offends you please dont post. you can start a tread in rant about the people that cant spell every word.

Thanks

When I stated that if the states had known in 1787-89 that signing the constitution, they would not be allowed to leave, that no state would have signed it! I have no factual base for this except common sense, who in their right mind would agree to something that they could not get out of? Maybe I am ignorant, but to me this sounds absurd.
All I can say is that when we won our independence, we (both the people and states) were terrified of a strong central gov't, and rightly so. To combat this they formed a confederation, in which each state would remain soverign, but be in a league of friendship with each other. Now from this perspective, I for the life of me would not and could not understand how they (the states), could out of no where do a complete 180 and throw their soverignity away to join a union that THEY COULD NEVER LEAVE........

I meant no disrespect. I just wanted to point it out. It's been done in other threads; misspellings and typos happen.

Sorry I offended you.

Otts you dont offend me because i dont know you!only my friends offend me.
and i fixed the spelling.

[edit on 28-11-2004 by DRAGON27]

Originally posted by Fighting Kentuctian
who in their right mind would agree to something that they could not get out of?

Everyone who signs a contract is agreeing to abide by its terms. They can't just unilaterally say 'eff this, I don't like it no more' and leave.

could out of no where do a complete 180 and throw their soverignity away to join a union that THEY COULD NEVER LEAVE........

And yet they did. They trashed the articles of confederation because it wasn't working properly, and they left it by using legal means, not by arming themselves and walking out.

I know this is just a bit off topic, "the confederate flag " but the discussion seems to be headed this way, so I dug this up and decided to post it.
If anybody is interested, the US Constitution is online. The site has links to the American Declaration of Independance, the Conferedate Constitution and a few other Historical documents.
US Constitution

Confederate Constitution
Follow this one to Article 9, the Bill of Rights, to see how Slavery is addressed.

American Declaration Of Independance
By the way, this last contains the words---

...When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the consent of the governed, -- That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness....

Those words were written and agreed to as attested by SIGNATURES from our Founding Fathers. That does not sound to me like they expected the National Government to be an Everlasting One.

In case I did it wrong, those three urls in order are:
www.usconstitution.net...
www.usconstitution.net...
www.usconstitution.net...

It's all in how it is used. I know people in the south that fly it proudly because it is part of thier heritage. I know other people though, who fly it because they are racist and it can stand for hatred. I know it's a stretch to mention the German flag of world war II but is it that much different? There might be some in Germany that are proud of the fact that they rose from nothing to a world power through hard work and determination, In a relativley short period of time. Unfortunately it was at the expsense of millions, and is a low point in thier history, but it is their heritage. If a German immigrant, though, wanted to fly the Nazi flag in front of his house I think it would cause a fire storm in his neighborhood. Now, many will look at the Confederate flag and say that they rose against the North for thier beliefs and did very well against an established army. Unfortunately thier beliefs included the right to own slaves, which was a low point in our history. So, is the flying of the Confederate flag really that much different? I know it's a right to fly which ever flag you want and I hope that never changes but you need to realize what you are representing. It kills me though, to hear some people say that I fly the Confederate flag not because of Slavery but because it's my heritage, when it is so obvious that they probably don't know of any other reason why the Civil war was fought other than slavery. It's always easy, thankfuly, to see through a racist.

Is there anything else you want the South to give up?
After 12 years of "reconstruction" under military rule that left the South in ruins. The North tried to totally humiliate the South for years after the war and you can't just let them keep a piece of cloth?
The Southern culture is quickly dissappearing where I live. I think years from now you'll only find it in remote areas of this country.



[edit on 29-11-2004 by elaine]

Originally posted by elaine
Is there anything else you want the South to give up?
After 12 years of "reconstruction" under military rule that left the South in ruins. The North tried to totally humiliate the South for years after the war and you can't just let them keep a piece of cloth?
The Southern culture is quickly dissappearing where I live. I think years from now you'll only find it in remote areas of this country.
[edit on 29-11-2004 by elaine]

Uh, yes, the South could give up Southern Fried everything and learn to live on Yankee Pot Roast. And maybe you could give up your Hush Puppies and eat New York Style Cheesecake.
I have wondered about that "Reconstruction" before. Do you think that is why there are so many Military Bases there? Are they merely hold-overs from another time, or "Insurance"? The only one I can think of in Ohio, Michigan and West Virginia is Wright-Patterson AFB, in Dayton, Ohio. There are several smaller ones for use by National Guard for training, such as Grayling in Michigan, but not Full-Time Installations. The USAF closed both Sawyer AFB and Wurtsmith AFB in recent years, both in Michigan.
That "piece of cloth" is not acceptable to a Revisionist History. Heritage be damned. We have to re-define everything. Why? . Makes no sense to me.
I just checked at Flags Of The World. Mississippi is the only one of the "Old Confederacy" to have both Stars AND Bars on it's state flag.
Elaine, you said " The North tried to totally humiliate the South for years after the war". Have you not noticed? It is still happening. The war ended officially 139 years ago. In the "Arts", TV, movies, books, etc. the Southerner is generally depicted as a lazy bigoted Redneck.
I was born in Northern West Virginia, but raised north of the Mason-Dixon, well..... in NorthEast Ohio. Personally, I prefer to know the truth. That "Revisionist" stuff is kind of lame. It never explains facts, just conveniently tries to explain them into non-existance, and gives easy answers to complex issues.

Originally posted by elaine
Is there anything else you want the South to give up?
After 12 years of "reconstruction" under military rule that left the South in ruins. The North tried to totally humiliate the South for years after the war and you can't just let them keep a piece of cloth?
The Southern culture is quickly dissappearing where I live. I think years from now you'll only find it in remote areas of this country.

While the sights and smells between north and south are starting to be much the same, there is still something about the south that I and others have noticed. People tend to act differently with respect to different regions of the United States, and if you study or merely observe human behavior you will notice something about the southern population. While the obvious one is a little bit of accent, the least obvious until you spend a lot of time in the south is the behavior. For example, the average southern individual will require more space between them and another person to have a comfort zone. Southern folks tend to treat others with more respect, and one will remarkedly heard catch phrases such as, "sir" and "ma'am" much more often.

Does anyone else tend to notice this difference?

Those who forget their past are doomed to repeat it and those idiots who are against keeping the confederate flag around will soon forget what it was all about and if the saying is true, we will have slavery all over again. Only idiots try to erase history.

Originally posted by GrndLkNatv
Those who forget their past are doomed to repeat it and those idiots who are against keeping the confederate flag around will soon forget what it was all about and if the saying is true, we will have slavery all over again. Only idiots try to erase history.

I assume you have heard of some of those Sweat Shops in some of the cities that target (mostly illegal) immigrants? Slavery has been back, we just call it something else. We also import stuff made by slave labor, or so I have been told.