Sovereign Citizen

Heya ,

I read a while back about a guy in my country ( the Netherlands ) who wanted to go off the grid , he turned in his citizenship , stop paying taxes , and sold everything.

But a few days before he could leave everything behind the police came with a court order for forced Psyciatric review in a mental institution.

If you are not a danger they deem you crazy for not wanting to be part of there *cough* fantastic system.

I personally dont have anything against some form of government , but i do have something against the "pay for your own prison cell " type wich seems to evolve rapidly.

When i was a kid in the 90's in my country i saw the good side of a Government willing to serve the people , by offering good/cheap Healthcare , and Social and Cultural Activities.

But this was out of our budget , and now my country has huge debts , and the reforms have halted the individual progress for the people in my nation.

Because they do not offer stability and future perspective , if i might lose my job next week why would i even bother to buy a house or get married or have a kid ?

Instead of creating stability and consumer trust to boost the economy they decided to allow corporations to fire people much quicker and not even give them contracts that are more then a year.

The only way you should govern people is by giving people a place where they feel safe , and most important valued for who they are no matter what skills they poses.

TheGreazel.

VoidHawk
in the uk

Buuuuuuut.... In the US.....

reply to post by Notheycant



www.youtube.com...

I watched this documentary "UNGRIP" a couple of years ago, but I don't quite remember everything it claims or tries to prove. If anything, it could be informative for you.

Has anyone heard of the author David E. Robinson? What are your thoughts about him / his work?

reply to post by VoidHawk


one has to wonder - why are you stalling ??

you have been asked to cite your claims - just do it [ if you can ]

demanding a pre requisite ` counter question ` first is just pathetic posturing

Can someone be both ? The two dont seem like they fit together.

There is no such thing as a sovereign citizen, that's like saying, the boiling water is frozen.

ignorant_ape
reply to post by VoidHawk

 

one has to wonder - why are you stalling ??

you have been asked to cite your claims - just do it [ if you can ]

demanding a pre requisite ` counter question ` first is just pathetic posturing

The reason no claims can be cited is...... how can you cite something that does not exist?

reply to post by Notheycant


There are many scam artists within the sovereign movement, and you can always tell who is either misinformed or blatantly lying.
Ideas like the legal "strawman" that was created when you were born are bunk. Anything that sounds too good to be true probably is.

The truth of the matter is very simple, everything pertains to nationality. The United States is not a country in the sense that we think of it. That means that, the United States, as a collection of the various states, is not a country. The states of the union are the lawful countries.

Your nationality, at one point in time, was simply derived from the state that you were born in. If I was born in Ohio, I was an Ohio national. Later on in our history, Washington DC was declared a state and ushered into the union. Our nationality is no longer derived from the state we are born in. Our nationality is now derived from Washington DC, which has taken the name of the United States per the 14th amendment. That is why we are citizens of the United States (as defined by the 14th amendment) that only reside (also defined by the 14th amendment) in one of the several states.

Here are some interesting law definitions:

These definitions are taken from Bouvier's Law Dictionary 1856 Edition

I use this edition because the definitions are extremely straightforward. Grab the latest cop of Black's Law (9th edition I think) and compare it's definitions to these and you will see what I mean. The legal language has become highly convoluted.

STATE, government. This word is used in various senses. In its most enlarged sense, it signifies a self-sufficient body of persons united together in one community for the defence of their rights, and to do right and justice to foreigners. In this sense, the state means the whole people united into one body politic; (q. v.) and the state, and the people of the state, are equivalent expressions. 1 Pet. Cond. Rep. 37 to 39; 3 Dall. 93; 2 Dall. 425; 2 Wilson's Lect. 120; Dane's Appx. §50, p. 63 1 Story, Const. §361. In a more limited sense, the word `state' expresses merely the positive or actual organization of the legislative, or judicial powers; thus the actual government of the state is designated by the name of the state; hence the expression, the state has passed such a law, or prohibited such an act. State also means the section of territory occupied by a state, as the state of Pennsylvania.

2. By the word state is also meant, more particularly, one of the commonwealths which form the United States of America.

BODY POLITIC, government, corporations. When applied to the government this phrase signifies the state.

2. As to the persons who compose the body politic, they take collectively the name, of people, or nation; and individually they are citizens, when considered in relation to their political rights, and subjects as being submitted to the laws of the state.

I included this part of the definition because it is interesting. The Supreme Court, I believe, recently made a ruling declaring that corporations are legal persons. This caused an uproar, but it is absurdly silly. Corporations have always been artificial persons. They have to be. The emphasis by the media on the ruling seemed like a bunch of smoke and mirrors to me. "OH NOEZ A CORPORATION IS A BODY POLITIC!!11!!!

3. When it refers to corporations, the term body politic means that the members of such corporations shall be considered as an artificial person.

NATIONS. Nations or states are independent bodies politic; societies of men united together for the purpose of promoting their mutual safety and advantage by the joint efforts of their combined strength.

2. But every combination of men who govern themselves, independently of all others, will not be considered a nation; a body of pirates, for example, who govern themselves, are not a nation. To constitute a nation another ingredient is required. The body thus formed must respect other nations in general, and each of their members in particular. Such a society has her affairs and her interests; she deliberates and takes resolutions in common; thus becoming a moral person who possesses an understanding and will peculiar to herself, and is susceptible of obligations and rights. Vattel, Prelim. §1, 2; 5 Pet. S. C. R. 52.

NATIONALITY. The state of a person in relation to the nation in which he was born.

COUNTRY. By country is meant the state of which one is a member.

Basically, these terms are interchangeable. A state is a country. A country is a nation. A nation is a body politic. The states of the union are the lawful countries of the union, and your nationality is supposed to derive from only one of them. But that all changed with the 14th amendment (sort of).

RESIDENT, persons. A person coming into a place with intention to establish his domicil or permanent residence, and who in consequence actually remains there. Time is not so essential as the intent, executed by making or beginning an actual establishment, though it be abandoned in a longer, or shorter period. See 6 Hall's Law Journ. 68; 3 Hagg. Eccl. R. 373; 20 John. 211 2 Pet. Ad. R. 450; 2 Scamm. R. 377.

The definition of resident is important and very telling. If you were born in Ohio and moved to Missouri, you would be a resident of Missouri if you had the intent of establishing your domicil or permanent residence there. The thing that is interesting is that you can indefinitely remain a resident because, while you may have the intent, you simply don't establish a domicil.

A resident is basically a foreigner who is going to establish himself as a native. You do this by declaring your domicil. As it stands, our domicil of origin (the really important one) is in Washington DC, and we merely reside (indefinitely) in one of the several states.

DOMICIL. The place where a person has fixed his ordinary dwelling, without a present intention of removal. 10 Mass. 488; 8 Cranch, 278; Ersk. Pr. of Law of Scotl. B. 1, tit. 2, s. 9; Denisart, tit. Domicile, 1, 7, 18, 19; Voet, Pandect, lib. 5, tit. 1, 92, 97; 5 Madd. Ch. R. 379; Merl. Rep. tit. Domicile; 1 Binn. 349, n.; 4 Humph. 346. The law of domicil is of great importance in those countries where the maxim "actor sequitur forum rei" is applied to the full extent. Code Civil, art. 102, &c.; 1 Toullier, 318.

2. A man cannot be without a domicil, for he is not supposed to have abandoned his last domicil until he has acquired a new one. 5 Ves. 587; 3 Robins. 191; 1 Binn. 349, n.; 10 Pick. 77. Though by the Roman law a man might abandon his domicil, and, until be acquired a. new one, he was without a domicil. By fixing his residence at two different places a man may have two domicils at one and the same time; as, for example, if a foreigner, coming to this country, should establish two houses, one in New York and the, other in New Orleans, and pass one-half of the year in each; he would, for most purposes, have two domicils. But it is to be observed that circumstances which might be held sufficient to establish a commercial domicil in time of war, and a matrimonial, or forensic or political domicil in time of peace, might not be such as would establish a principal or testamentary domicil, for there is a wide difference in applying the law of domicil to contracts and to wills. Phill. on Dom. xx; 11 Pick. 410 10 Mass. 488; 4 Wash. C. C. R. 514.

3. There are three kinds of domicils, namely: 1. The domicil of origin. domicilium originis vel naturale. 2. The domicil by operation of law, or necessary domicil. 3. Domicil of choice.

4. - §1. By domicil of origin is understood the home of a man's parents, not the place where, the parents being on a visit or journey, a child happens to be born. 2 B. & P. 231, note; 3 Ves. 198. Domicil of origin is to be distinguished from the accidental place of birth. 1 Binn. 349.

You can have only ONE domicil of origin, and your domicil of origin is going to decide your nationality and that is basically what this comes down to. Nationality. The 14th amendment changed the nature of our citizenship, and the nature of our legal world. We are federal citizens at birth because of our nationality.

I would suggest getting a copy of the book The Red Amendment. Until then, here are some resources that will help you:

Bouvier's Law Dictionary 1856 Edition
The Federalist Papers
The Anti-Federalist Papers
The federal constitution is actually an international treatise: The Law of Nations

reply to post by Notheycant


Also, I would like to add that the "sovereign" movement really is a scam all by itself.

A citizen is not a sovereign.