White House reportedly struggling to target US citizen with drone attack

reply to post by beezzer

I got schooled. By some great members here on ATS. But this is a new style of warfare. I know it's wrong to just drone people. I hate drones. I despise drones.

Did they include the infamous cruise missile in that ?

Not a new style of warfare.

Asymmetric Warfare is as old as conventional warfare.

They use to call it guerrilla warfare back in the day.

I don't think we'll win the war on terrorism. In order to win, we'd have to cede too much. Too much freedom, too much liberty. The "War on Terrorism" is a war on our basic freedoms.

I am going to agree with you Beezer.

Because what we are fighting is a marriage made in hell when politics, and religion are one in the same.

The 'war of terrorism' is a political war.

As we have all seen no one really wins in politics.

reply to post by solongandgoodnight


Yes we are talking about the same thing, and I'm not asking you to apologize, nor have I ever stopped taking it easy. I'm merely pointing out that even while opposing the executive branch attempting to usurp the roles of judge, jury, and executioner, it is considered moderate and reasonable to concede the truth of their allegations and to oppose how they want to do things rather than what they want to do. This undermines the whole reason we have trials. What good is it to insist on a trial if most prospective jurors consider it merely a motion that must be gone through for their own potential protection in the future while taking the outcome of the actual case in front of them as a foregone conclusion? By interacting with this information we all become an illustration of how a nation so concerned with freedom could stand idly by while freedom is removed from them- though your post was the example I responded to, it was not my intention to single you out for attack.

Once they start they won't stop.

How is some guy in Afghanistan a threat to us here in the US?

He isn't.

Terrorism is a sham.

If you don't agree with the US Gov't you are a terrorist....
if you own guns you are a terrorist.
if you are a vet ... Yep still a terrorist.
if you can chew a pop tart into the shape of a gun ... TERRORIST...


Killing ANYONE with out due process is not right. But since the USA is the new NAZI world power and no one can challenge it yet they can kill whom ever they please.

SWCCFAN
Once they start they won't stop.

How is some guy in Afghanistan a threat to us here in the US?

He isn't.

Terrorism is a sham.

If you don't agree with the US Gov't you are a terrorist....
if you own guns you are a terrorist.
if you are a vet ... Yep still a terrorist.
if you can chew a pop tart into the shape of a gun ... TERRORIST...


Killing ANYONE with out due process is not right. But since the USA is the new NAZI world power and no one can challenge it yet they can kill whom ever they please.

But it's a war, isn't it?

I'm not arguing with you, nor am I disagreeing. In war we don't read Miranda Rights. We shoot, kill, blow stuff up.

Killing someone who isn't actively trying to kill you is wrong. I get that.

Is there a way to stop the process though?

Neo, my friend, you're right. This is a political process. Unfortunately, our politicians are all insane.

buster2010
According to the laws passed by Bush when he joined a terrorist group he signed his death warrant. Why is it now they suddenly start to wonder what the law says?

So let me ask ya a question do the laws Bush passed override the Constitution. Do you or any other citizen have the right to the due process of law.




Silly simple minded fools see this for what it really is. They want to target US citizens and this is the first step a foot in the door if you will. They will use fear as the weapon to tear down liberty. We have fallen so far from what this country should be about it is not even funny anymore. Sure many will say this guy probably has it coming but that is the point people. This time it will be a easy pill to swallow but you had better believe that pill will only grow with time.

reply to post by LeatherNLace


Ah of course, we will kill foreigners without trial and just get him too by accident, because it might technically be consistent with some stuff we've written down lately and therefore might be considered legal.

Of course generally that would require not just a trial, but in fact an act of congress, because it's an even bigger application of violence that morally requires an even more compelling reason and careful consideration of all potential implications. But we've got the loop-holes in our own rules to make it happen and nobody has the firepower to stop us, so why question it?

reply to post by beezzer


Congress hasn't declared war in over 70 years.

Therefore we are not at "War"

We are attempting to expand our 'merica corporation to all corners of the globe.

SWCCFAN
reply to post by beezzer

 

Congress hasn't declared war in over 70 years.

Therefore we are not at "War"

We are attempting to expand our 'merica corporation to all corners of the globe.

*nods head*

I'd become Canadian, but they have round bacon.

Seriously, our "public servants" have over-stepped their roles and responsibilities so much that any, every action they take have become insane.

SWCCFAN
reply to post by beezzer

 

Congress hasn't declared war in over 70 years.

Therefore we are not at "War"

We are attempting to expand our 'merica corporation to all corners of the globe.

Sure they have:

War on Drugs.

War on the Rich.

War on income inequality.

War on women.

War on Poverty.

War on Guns.

Congress that is made up by congressman that are war whacky.

reply to post by beezzer


Who holds them accountable for their mistakes?

I mean come on.... Congress has been rubber stamping every POTUS decision since WWII.

We the people have been caged up and now with the disclosure on the NSA surveillance we know we have been had.

A time is coming soon that TPTB will push and we as a nation will push back. Will they use drones on us here? You bet. They already do. It's just classified.

I am but one person but no one can stop an idea whose time has come.

reply to post by SWCCFAN


Exactly. This is not war. This is an attempt to stop international criminals. We're just using a blunt military instrument to go after them. We've all see The Siege haven't we? That's what's happening, except instead of doing it to ourselves we do it to foreign cities, and we help ourselves to all of their stuff while we're at it. They know it's counter-productive and they don't care, because law enforcement isn't the REAL objective, it's the excuse. There's a huge gap between the situation they describe to us and the actions they are taking. How has ANYONE failed to see this unless they have intentionally looked away rather than lose faith in the institutions they were raised to trust?

SWCCFAN
I mean come on.... Congress has been rubber stamping every POTUS decision since WWII.

They did a fair job of Holding Nixon's feet to the fire over the Christmas bombings of North Vietnam and recently told Obama NO on Syria.

Just saying

SWCCFAN
reply to post by beezzer

 

Who holds them accountable for their mistakes?

I mean come on.... Congress has been rubber stamping every POTUS decision since WWII.

We the people have been caged up and now with the disclosure on the NSA surveillance we know we have been had.

A time is coming soon that TPTB will push and we as a nation will push back. Will they use drones on us here? You bet. They already do. It's just classified.

I am but one person but no one can stop an idea whose time has come.

I'd hold them accountable, but I don't want my (disability, welfare, unemployment) to stop.

Sadly, too many enjoy the comfort of the cage.

But you can't stop an idea. Freedom seems to emerge in many places at different times.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is always a war going on. It is the continuous war on freedom. And we must fight for it at every venue that becomes available.

History shows that sometimes we lose, sometimes we win.

Keep your powder dry.

We the people have been caged up and now with the disclosure on the NSA surveillance we know we have been had.

Where were people when Echelon was in full swing ?

Hell the entirety of the Cold war.

The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 ("FISA" Pub.L. 95–511, 92 Stat. 1783, 50 U.S.C. ch. 36) is a United States federal law which prescribes procedures for the physical and electronic surveillance and collection of "foreign intelligence information" between "foreign powers" and "agents of foreign powers" (which may include American citizens and permanent residents suspected of espionage or terrorism).[1] The law does not apply outside the United States. It has been repeatedly amended since the September 11 attacks.

FISA was created back in the 70s.

Who holds Carter 'accountable' ?

Or Truman for the creation of the NSA

en.wikipedia.org...

Whose origins dates back to the Wilson administration.

Even the most vile and heinous of us deserve a trial,

There are structures set up to try someone FAIRLY, when you can not get them into a court, anything less is Un-american.

Every US citizen is entitled to the protections granted them under the constitution, Period, And here is the important part.

NOT because of who they are and what they did, BUT because of who we are, and what we know to be true.

LeatherNLace
reply to post by solongandgoodnight

 

But if he is an American citizen, isn't he innocent until proven guilty? Shouldn't there be a trial?

Absolutely. He should voluntarily come back to the US and prove his innocence in a court of law. In the mean time, the US should focus on targeting the foreign terrorists that he is running around with. Kill those foreign terrorists and if this guy just happens to be collateral damage, then so be it.

I like this idea a whole lot more than targeting US citizens for execution without a trial.
I can't believe that we are reading that our leaders are struggling with a decision here. Follow the Constitution, no struggle.

Surprised they don't just drone strike him and blame it on a metadata collection malfunction and swear he wasn't the intended target.

LeatherNLace
reply to post by solongandgoodnight

 

But if he is an American citizen, isn't he innocent until proven guilty? Shouldn't there be a trial?

Absolutely. He should voluntarily come back to the US and prove his innocence in a court of law. In the mean time, the US should focus on targeting the foreign terrorists that he is running around with. Kill those foreign terrorists and if this guy just happens to be collateral damage, then so be it.

This post has to be one of the most extraordinary posts on this topic I have ever seen. I defies true explanation.

"he should voluntarily come back and prove is innocence in a court of law." This sentence, this sentiment, is the most depressing I have read in some time. It says to me that the effort to rewrite the brain waves of the masses have been successful. To understand why I say this is that when the Magna Carta was established, and the the Constitution the FACT was that anyone who was accused of a crime was to be presumed innocent and the burden of proof was on the ACCUSER. With this sentence, this poster has said, "the burden or proof is on the ACCUSED and they must prove they have not done something." Here is where it gets awful, it is IMPOSSIBLE, IMPOSSIBLE to prove you haven't done something - you cannot prove the negative, you can only present evidence that suggest you didn't but there isn't proof. It is much harder to prove you haven't done something then for another to prove you have, the reason is your testimony is considered a lie by someone who has decided that a trial only complicates matters.

Even worse, the sentiment presented by this post is that anyone can say anything about anyone and it is fact. So, by this posters logic: I have a friend at the DOD, and I just happened to tell him that leather and lace is a terrorist, and I just happened to tell him when leather and lace is taking a trip and I just happened to tell him the itinerary. He agrees leather and lace is indeed a terrorist by my accusations and agrees to fast track a drone strike on leather and lace while on vacation. I say, what about the kids and he says, "Screw them, collateral damage, and, were they to live, they'd become terrorists after mommy was blown up from the sky."

And that my friends is mind control at its finest. We have now arrived at the totalitarian mind state of "the ends ALWAYS justify the means" and "All humans are GUILTY as charged no matter what," and "a trial by jury is just something we can no longer afford."

This is truly horrifying, truly. We have reached a point on our evolution where man in hermetically sealed offices decide the fate of those they simply feel are bothersome in some way. They have no moral qualms about assassination via video game screen because, well, it doesn't get their hands dirty. They justify their actions by saying, "well, they are bad people and people who hang around bad people deserve to die." and worst of all, the people who are subject to the drone strikes, the ones who will soon be in the cross hairs, not only love it but welcome the day they too will get whacked by a drone.

reply to post by solongandgoodnight


Inform him of the charges. Allow him to stand trial. If he refuses, I say strike away.

crankyoldman

LeatherNLace
reply to post by solongandgoodnight

 

But if he is an American citizen, isn't he innocent until proven guilty? Shouldn't there be a trial?

Absolutely. He should voluntarily come back to the US and prove his innocence in a court of law. In the mean time, the US should focus on targeting the foreign terrorists that he is running around with. Kill those foreign terrorists and if this guy just happens to be collateral damage, then so be it.

This post has to be one of the most extraordinary posts on this topic I have ever seen. I defies true explanation.

"he should voluntarily come back and prove is innocence in a court of law." This sentence, this sentiment, is the most depressing I have read in some time. It says to me that the effort to rewrite the brain waves of the masses have been successful. To understand why I say this is that when the Magna Carta was established, and the the Constitution the FACT was that anyone who was accused of a crime was to be presumed innocent and the burden of proof was on the ACCUSER. With this sentence, this poster has said, "the burden or proof is on the ACCUSED and they must prove they have not done something." Here is where it gets awful, it is IMPOSSIBLE, IMPOSSIBLE to prove you haven't done something - you cannot prove the negative, you can only present evidence that suggest you didn't but there isn't proof. It is much harder to prove you haven't done something then for another to prove you have, the reason is your testimony is considered a lie by someone who has decided that a trial only complicates matters.

Even worse, the sentiment presented by this post is that anyone can say anything about anyone and it is fact. So, by this posters logic: I have a friend at the DOD, and I just happened to tell him that leather and lace is a terrorist, and I just happened to tell him when leather and lace is taking a trip and I just happened to tell him the itinerary. He agrees leather and lace is indeed a terrorist by my accusations and agrees to fast track a drone strike on leather and lace while on vacation. I say, what about the kids and he says, "Screw them, collateral damage, and, were they to live, they'd become terrorists after mommy was blown up from the sky."

And that my friends is mind control at its finest. We have now arrived at the totalitarian mind state of "the ends ALWAYS justify the means" and "All humans are GUILTY as charged no matter what," and "a trial by jury is just something we can no longer afford."

This is truly horrifying, truly. We have reached a point on our evolution where man in hermetically sealed offices decide the fate of those they simply feel are bothersome in some way. They have no moral qualms about assassination via video game screen because, well, it doesn't get their hands dirty. They justify their actions by saying, "well, they are bad people and people who hang around bad people deserve to die." and worst of all, the people who are subject to the drone strikes, the ones who will soon be in the cross hairs, not only love it but welcome the day they too will get whacked by a drone.

Everything you posted is flat out wrong. He is still presumed innocent, that doesn't mean he can avoid trial.

You can prove a negative. People need to stop using that tired out phrase.