What kind of America do you really want?

What kind of America do you want? Top down? or, bottom up?



An Idea Whose Time Has Come.

Power.

What is it?

Where does it really come from?

Security? Force of arms?

Money?

Duality and a choice that's really no choice at all because the system has been corrupted?


There are many kinds of power, but what power is it that makes a nation, a nation?

Does it reside in the police forces, the FBI, the CIA, the DHS, the Federal Government?

Does it reside in Washington with the law makers, the judges and the Executive office of the POTUS?


Liberty? What is that, really, and what does it have to do with Power? Are the two related as they appear to be, intuitively?


One thing that i've learned, and believe you me i've probed, clashed, investigated, is that RELEVANCY is key, within a frame of reference where it may be said that CONTEXT and MEANING is decisive.


So i'm not asking you to shake your first here or rant and rave about the evils of the world we are completely powerless in the face of to effect meaningful change and transformation, because i am beginning with the fundamental presupposition that everything that didn't work out may already be seen as the garbage to be discarded, once recognized (re cognized), can be clearly seen for what it is ie: big government, centralized "power" (control), surveillance, killing, theft, greed, exploitation..


I am asking for solutions, isn't that what we most need? - like those proposed in the video "An Idea Whose Time Has Come" (it's worth the watch), not fearful raving at the boogieman which really serves no purpose that fear and loathing except to project such a one, such an energy pattern, even empowering those things we might fear, unreasonably..

Modern science states that we are much more powerful by many orders of magnitude than we've even begun to consider.

Maybe context and framing IS decisive..?

It's possible.

You see otoh, there's the "dialectic" which inserts all manner of "wedge issues", to divide and conquer, but what if the ultimate wedge is simple rhetoric based on nothing but common sense and reason? What if that wedge belongs in whole to the American people relative to bad government..? Think of it as a fulcrum of the ultimate point of leverage.

Could it be that simple?

That's what i see, so i just wanted to propose it as a question, and a serious of questions in trying to employ the Socratic Method to get at the root of the problem as well as a solution capable of moving a whole mountain of historical causation, and since i'm just a lowly Canadian looking on eh?, often in stark horror, all i CAN do is to make the proposition in the form of Socratic Inquiry. I don't have a chip in the game.

But, my view is that things got so so very very bad, down there (looks down from the Great White North, sorry for all the cold wind and snow that they always blame us for - "bad weather coming down from Canada") that i'm almost envious, yes ENVIOUS of your position as authentic American citizens and thus as real /authentic, active historical participants or what i refer to as "causal free will agents of progressive change" who've started to have THE CONVERSATION, right at the dinner table, about the state of affairs in the good 'ol US of A.


All i'm saying here is that the absurdity of it all has already been rendered, in the form of what Terrence McKenna called the dead bones of a dead civilization, with at least half the population or more still trying to suck the marrow out of it for everything it's worth! But that's ok, as long as there's a remnant that's all that's needed..

Something novel can't not arise from the fall of modern civilization as we know it.. surely, and i'm not talking economically, or in terms of a "transformation in military affairs" (PNAC), but in simple human affairs.

So i figured that's what it comes right down to - top down, or bottom up? That's the choice, and don't think it isn't set before you, or that you aren't powerful enough to perform a "re-frame" of the conversation so with that said, be forewarned that there is absolutely nothing more pathetic in the face of such choices as complete and woeful apathy, having already surrendered, so don't worry about the dead, leave them to bury the dead there's nothing that can be done, and if you are one among them, come to life! (lions paw)


You are the remnant, American ATS and friends, or certainly one of many - so what say you..?

If we were looking for solutions upon which every American citizen can agree wholeheartedly..? Not just problems, because these are human problems where for everything problem there is an eventual solution to that very problem, if we persist unrelentingly, from every angle and perspective and without cessation in time or history until our objective is realized. More than mere hope and optimism which is immensely powerful in and of tiself, but the application of the will in the form of the freedom to choose.

But don't you DARE tell me it can never be done thy devil's advocates oh yea of such little faith. Remember, if you're not part of the solution you are a part of the problem, and we don't need more than one Alex Jones.

Shouting at the devil - isn't the solution, but neither is turning a blind eye to the magnitude of the importance of what's at stake.

Go America!

And i don't mean winning gold at the Olympics.

I mean that true American gold everyone used to believe in and that the world looked upon with envy, and not because it's become such a mess as in my case where i see such opportunity for real and authentic bottom-up, progressive change and the restoration of the American community and American sensibility that the world had grown to love before this historical nightmare began on 9/11 and never really went away after that.

A Clean Break.

That's the only way to move the mountain. It's a single movement in favor of something better, and the rest plunges into the abyss but not before serving as a true historical lesson in everything that's garbage and thus, already irrelevant, leaving a giant vacuum of leadership for the American people to fill themselves, as if the whole throne is vacant and you will sit it in before "they" even begin to figure out what happened. That's what i see.

But only you can fill it, only you can project against their foil of darkness the dawning of a new American age from the ash heap of a fallen civilization.

It's you, believe it or not. Just you as an American citizen who cares about the spirit of Liberty, and Justice for all.

You who really believes it is the one who kept watch through the night, the "remnant".

But if you here at ATS cannot believe it, then by God - who will?!!!

Carpe diem, American friends. We're all still rooting for you the world over, not because of your most recent example mind you, but the restoration of an America we all knew and loved.

The rhizome never died, it was just buried deep underground, pushing it's way back up to the surface.

It's a quiet American Revolution and it will happen over the Internet i believe.

The wind of Liberty can't be stopped from blowing again, some day.. it's inevitable.

Keep the faith - American friends and neighbors to the south.

No fear - only faith.


Thanks for listening.


Best Regards, with much Love, and may God Bless America (for real).


NAM

i want an america where everybody becomes rich by their own hand, nobody owns anybody, we are not ruled by the hand of religion, nor government but we tell them what to do. i want an america where weed is legal and all the money they spend fighting drug use goes after people who use harmful drugs, who commit real crime that is violent. ne left no right just people, guns, and whether atheist, or religious they all get buried and die when they are 103

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Nevermind. I didn't see this was politics.

Bleeeeep

I guess the best answer is prayer, but then that might actually start the war of gog and magog, since we are already so far along.

Not the answer you were looking for, I know, but I tried to keep it real.

I don't mean to be overly critical or anything, but did you just say that too much prayer is dangerous because it might start a war and Armageddon?

That's not keeping it real is it?

And i don't think that's what the prophecy of the last couple pages of the Bible had in mind, which has a magnificent and beautiful ending.

I think that the good in it's triumph over evil is what's inevitable, and it's already gone to hell in a handbasket, i mean like how low do we have to go to find bottom?

Maybe nothing less than a spirit of eternal optimism is reasonable, however unreasonably reasonable it might appear and for good reason.

I guess i'm talking about drawing a line and making no compromise while pressing in and through no matter what it takes to make things right and good again.

And if it's all just an unreal facade, then when it collapses in on itself, isn't reality all that's left?

I'm just trying to keep it reasonable, so that we can get back to what's real and true.

Ok so you gave up. Fair enough.

Next..?

Anyone?

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Sorry, didn't mean to step into political forum.

reply to post by Bleeeeep


No need to apologize.

The way i understand the video in the OP, is that we're in a battle and clash of a purely psychological nature, in strong opposition to a collectivist demagoguery, and an even stronger push in favor of Liberty in all of it's forms, or simply put the right to self determination and self governance without constraint - a bottom up, instead of a top down system of Civil Governance.

People have come to understand, myself included that the linchpin or the fulcrum that is used by those who seek to govern by control, is of a purely collectivist nature and that Obama while paying lip service to self governance and self determination is really a collectivist at heart, and if you're in the business of "governing" isn't that the preferred method so as to gather and hoard power from a central pivot point, not out there on mainstreet and in the heartland, but for the erection of a grand monument and Obelisk in Washington.

Once this is understood clearly, however, and down it comes, and no i'm not talking about a terrorist act to bring down the Washington Monument.

It's all psychological in nature, nothing but collectivist demagoguery, and THAT is the real reason that so many distrust Obama and his administration, because as Americans they can smell it a mile away, and they realize when they're being sold a collectivist bill of goods where the government is going to save the day, with their job being to do nothing but work their asses off and be good consumers, with Liberty forgotten in the pursuit of the almighty dollar as the be all and the end all, many slaves to the corporations they work for, and the lives they try to eek out in the process. As if there's no real leisure time at all, no time left to stop and smell the roses because it's always back to work as a slave to the system, gird round by a "security" perimeter to "keep us safe".

It's a farse.

The American people don't need to have faith in their own government and it's much better when they don't, any more.

That's not apathy but the beginning of something new, something individualistic and bottom up emergent, from YOU.

It's nothing but a grand illusion and a psy-op, nothing more.

Funny i never imagined in a million years that i would be talking like some sort of Libertarian staunch individualist, but in a way they are right to feel that way, because everything that's of value and worth living and dying for, and what so many have sacrificed to realize and to hold in reserve for each and every one of us is that very Liberty.

It's not really selfish like i used to think, but a fairness that evens the playing field and gives everyone the right and freedom to pursue the happy life, enlightenment, whatever you want to call it for themselves in whatever way they so choose without constraint or limitation, not the least of which is absolute freedom from COERCION and all manner of covert and overt MANIPULATION, which raises the possibility for exploitation, and ABUSE OF POWER.

It's right there, behind a very thin thin veil - it's like pulling back the curtain on the so-called Wizard of Oz, seen as a little insecure man, pulling madly away at a bunch of levers and strings to make the big sights and sounds for both your terror and amuzement and calling that "Power".

That's hilarious!!!

Very hard to see, at first, but once it comes into view - oh the IRONY!


Power to the people!

reply to post by NewAgeMan


S&F OP
I would choose bottom up because that is the way our founders set up this government originally, by restricting the Federal Government and the individual State Governments to the will of the people.

Imponentes defendere libertatem non possunt.
Those without power cannot defend freedom.

I believe these words are as true as the words Power Corrupts and total power corrupts totally.
The speaker in the Video, G. Edward Griffin, pointed in the correct direction, we need to enter the halls of power, not just politics but Banking and Business as well, in order to make a difference.

The problem as I see it is that the systems currently in place for advancement in all three of these realms are corrupted and controlled to the point that no one can come to real power without the backing of those currently in power, and they guard the systems very closely.

Miner changes could be made in the political realm but as we all know the political realm is under the control of the Business leaders and Bankers.

Off subject.
I would hope, and it does seem, that you are aware that the "The Wonderful Wizard of Oz" is an allegory.

reply to post by RedmoonMWC


It's a controversy involving the issue of AUTHORITY.

But you see, if that "authority" including the authority to wage war on behalf of the people, has been abused, then they've blown the bank, in more ways than one.

The authority is inauthentic, and unjustified, particularly when founded on an endless series of lies and all manner of covert and overt manipulation.

It betrayed itself.

If it cannot be trusted or relied on, then it's no authority at all.

The whole structure could therefore be tipped in favor of the will of the people by simply withdrawing all support, all confidence and all faith in that authority.

So it's not a matter of a revolt or an insurrection, but one of both completely ignoring "them" on the one hand and coming to power on the other.

The way i see it is the little man got the last laugh at the devil's expense, and that's a Christian value and the Christian way, not aligning with one of two political parties and getting dashed to pieces by losing all relevancy.

The people need to start thinking more like Jesus himself and starting placing a double-bind on evil and getting in the face of and standing straight up to the center and source of all corruption of an evil empire and a bought and sold "establishment" who might think they're dealing in power, when all the while they can be clearly seen serving the wrong master.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


For evidence that they've abused their authority and thus, dropped the ball - just watch the video linked in my signature, and then look back on the last decade or so.

G. Edward Griffin in the presentation in the OP, he'd spent about 40+ years pondering over the fundamental nature of the dilemma.

Imho, the 9/11 event and everything leveraged into place, and the wars waged on behalf of the American people in it's name, are all the evidence that's needed to prove that he's right on the money, because everything that we've seen is precisely the MO of the collectivist totalitarian regime psy-op.

You'll notice however that these psy-ops are enacted to secure the (hardened) will of the people and the authority to govern over them. In other words, even still they need your permission or a permissive framework to proceed to screw you over and exploit you including last but not least, your own patriotism.

The problem that many people seem to have, particularly those of the ATS ilk on the whole, is the belief that the little man has no power and that the corporate oligarchy and complicit government, working together, which is the definition of Fascism, has all the power - but just look at the fruits of that kind and form of "power". Is that real power? Not.

Are they not double-bound in the chains of reason and logic and simple common sense and decency?

The problem is a lack of faith, a lack of belief, and a lack of understanding as to the true nature of power and of the true center and source of all authority.

Remember the Wizard of Oz, which is the perfect metaphor.

You can get back to Kansas, Dorothy, and wake up from this nightmare that they've delivered.

Just do it and then gather like minded people and generate the holographic image Griffin recommends or something very close to it.

And don't even bother voting unless you are running for office yourself.

Railing against them and your loss of power however, is NOT the solution to the problem, but a continuation and magnification of the fundamental problem because it involves BOTH apathy AND the handing over of the authority to rule from the top down, which is a terrible terrible error based and founded in ignorance of the truth of the matter. We don't need more than one Alex Jones shouting at the devil. What we need are more links in the chain capable of binding him so that, after a full "grokking" of his nature he can be safely cast into the abyss which means oblivion.

RedmoonMWC

The problem as I see it is that the systems currently in place for advancement in all three of these realms are corrupted and controlled to the point that no one can come to real power without the backing of those currently in power, and they guard the systems very closely.

Miner changes could be made in the political realm but as we all know the political realm is under the control of the Business leaders and Bankers.

Off subject.
I would hope, and it does seem, that you are aware that the "The Wonderful Wizard of Oz" is an allegory.

Yes, i'm aware that it's an allegory or a metaphor, and that's the point - you might have misplaced your trust in where the power and authority resides. After all if those realms of domains are all corrupted, then is it real power they're dealing in, or are they maybe deluded?

Their authority is vested in them only according to the will of the people.

If you withdraw your support while at the same time focusing on coming to power, then there it is, an inversion of the arrow of power.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


too much prayer can distract from danger. not enough can cause drought

reply to post by rockoperawriter


I have to disagree with your assessment of drugs. I've experienced addiction on many levels with drugs and marijuana can be just as harmful as the others. Just because no ones ever died of an overdose doesn't make it harmless. I hate when potheads play the harmless card to push their agenda for legalization. I say legalize it and tax the hell out of it but keep strict enforcement and heavy sentences for growing it.

reply to post by wantsome


it all boils down to self control to which addictive personalities have none. i hate how straight edge types try to treat marijuana like a drug. why big fines for growing especially if it's just one or two adults for personal use? why not shut ins or people who are good at what they do and know not to share outside of their spouse? i'm not malnourished, my mental capacity is uneffected, and the only side effect is i might get a stiffy in public which will go away when i get to a taco bell. sorry i don't pander to the white collar

reply to post by NewAgeMan


I'm not sure if this reply is what you're looking for but I'll share it anyway.

I want the kind of America with the values I was instilled with as a child by my grandfather. One where an honest days work pays an honest wage and where we are willing to pay for quality items made by our own hands in our own country. A place where you take care of yourself and have a community (family, friends, neighbors) that look out for one another in times of need. I want one where the government knows its place. One where your privacy is private, your laws created by your peers for the better of the community. I want one where a person isn't judged by how fancy their shoes or phone is, but on their character.

I want a peaceful America that can defend itself when needed and that tends to its own business instead of trying to meddle or influence others. I want our monetary system to reflect something tangible instead of someone telling us what they're worth. I want an America where there are no lobbyists that work for their own special interests trying to sway our politicians. I want an America where there is no such thing as a "career politician".

I'm of course leaving a lot of things out, but these are some of the things I truly desire.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

NewAgeMan
What kind of America do you want? Top down? or, bottom up?

MIDDLE OUT
The way it was during the 40s, 50s, and 60s. When you place the nucleus of power in the middle class, the middle class grows in both prosperity and strength. When the middle class is robust, America is robust.

Hand outs, bail outs, and cop outs destroyed it, though.