Dr. Jacques Vallee ~ The Control System

The GUT

nugget1
P.S. Gut - I have nothing incriminating to say in writing, or verbally. Unless I was at our secluded camping spot, sitting by the fire late at night.......and I was very,very drunk.

Wow...I didn't think I had any Valentines' nostalgia left in me...but I was wrong!

I have a well- earned, life - long reputation for saying things that don't come out quite right.

What I meant was,....oh, heck; never mind. Can we just not tell my husband what I said?

reply to post by nugget1

I don't know nuthin' 'bout nuthin'. Here's some Alien Valentine, though, for ALL of the beautiful girls of ATS.






And:

reply to post by The GUT



I dunno nothin either I'm just a stupid girl

Bahaha! I have no idea what I just watched but they were all perfect for the Valentinesy vibe. What''sbeen seen cannot be unseen and I'm grateful for it

Thank fer postin the alien stuffs n whatnots! Me likes

reply to post by unb3k44n7

No aliens…but…

Mystical "Intent":


The Starship:



One more. Forgive me it's Valentines. To stay on topic, we'll say this one is from Robert Bigelow to Linda Moulton Howe. We'll say that.

Cosmic Salvation:

...Linda Moulton Howe became paramour / lover of Las Vegas billionaire and Bigelow Aerospace owner Robert Bigelow. To me, that wouldn't mean much, because whether she might have had some affair with him wouldn't necessarily mean she's doing work toward his agenda. A billionaire's way of living, traveling, and staging might seem (if only temporarily) attractive to a woman journalist.

reply to post by The GUT


I told you before the control system is literally the lies, you control what people believe (belief definition google that shizz if you need to here)


not really much to be said here doc jock was pretty clear, its (they) are a fuc#king lie)

Brotherman
reply to post by The GUT

 

I told you before the control system is literally the lies, you control what people believe (belief definition google that shizz if you need to here)

But 'someone' has to make up and spread the lies, so wouldn't "the control system" be whoever is the 'source' of the lies?

Brotherman
reply to post by The GUT

 

I told you before the control system is literally the lies, you control what people believe (belief definition google that shizz if you need to here)

Nah...if history has taught us anything, it should be that you cannot control what people believe. Too many people have died for their beliefs for that to be the case. You can control what people are allowed to believe openly, and practice publicly, but in the privacy of their own heads, not so much. Potentially, you can cultivate a climate of reasonable doubt in core beliefs, you can destabilise 'belief' altogether, or you can limit education and opportunity to the extent that the frame of reference is highly constrained, thus fostering primal superstition and xenophobia, but control it, no, with that I disagree entirely. At best, you can lead to the water...

reply to post by KilgoreTrout


Perhaps not control directly, but what about hypnosis on a mass scale.

Look at the ads on TV (with their associated hieroglyphics and sigils), the ads on our electronic devices, as well as the colourful addictive games one can download. The foodstuff sprayed with a variety of chemicals, and the constant background electro-magnetic fog many of us live in.

Being hypnotised is a state that can be achieved by what using what seems to be a talismanic object (swinging pendulum, the ticking of a watch), but in fact said object(s) are utilised in a scientific fashion to try to put the subject into a state where their brain is no longer putting out Beta waves, but instead has slowed to the far more suggestible Alpha state.

You don't think that those involved with MK-Ultra just decided to stop one day because they all of a sudden developed a conscience? If we want to talk Control Systems, I believe we live right in the middle of one of the most sophisticated machines ever built, its foundations in linguistics and psychology, but the medium through which this is communicated now is via the media and this electro-magnetic mechanical world we live in. The media is always with us and for the first time ever, 'they' can know virtually everything about us, to a fine degree. We also have the power to communicate on a far greater scale than ever before, but we truly live in the Global Panopticon (the Stasi could only dream of having such power).

So can we be controlled? I'd ask myself if you feel a competent hypnotist could hypnotise you - if the answer to that question is yes, then absolutely. Perhaps not predictably, but I think humans are not dissimilar to dogs in many ways, and Pavlovian systems still wield as much power as they ever have.

Perhaps an adept of the mind, a true Jedi can see beyond the sigils used in advertising, and the ways consent can be manufactured (to paraphrase Chomsky), but for most of the populace, I think control is possible.
A relevant question is 'How much power do the powers that be have (and who are they?), and how effectively can they wield it'?

Whether you like them or not is one thing, but some of those on ATS, especially certain people from the AMA sessions are or have been highly placed in Intel, and I've no illusions as to their competency at what they do, none at all.

Hey GUT, if you're reading this post, check your PMs- I've sent one,but also an email

edit on 14-2-2014 by cuckooold because: (no reason given)

reply to post by cuckooold


People can certainly be influenced, but they cannot be controlled. Think of all the money and effort it takes to sell people on Budweiser beer. It is probably the market leader, but not everyone drinks it.

cuckooold
reply to post by KilgoreTrout

 

Perhaps not control directly, but what about hypnosis on a mass scale.

Look at the ads on TV (with their associated hieroglyphics and sigils), the ads on our electronic devices, as well as the colourful addictive games one can download. The foodstuff sprayed with a variety of chemicals, and the constant background electro-magnetic fog many of us live in.

Well, you're mixing a lot of things in there together. Let's take ads though for an example, they generally work on the basis of encouraging consumerism and general dissatisfaction, they encourage both acquisition and covetous behaviourism, both of which maintain the status quo. The major financiers make the majority of their money, these days, through insurance of various kinds.

Hypnosis though, although we are somewhat led to believe otherwise, is not all that easy to accomplish and depends much on the individual subjects upon whom it is applied. For that reason, amongst others, it will not yield great results conducted remotely, en masse. Power of suggestion, as I describe above, is far more effective. Creating a balance between advertisements that sell 'lifestyles' with programming that depicts crime works wonders in terms of conditioning. Particularly in a disposable, status defined by possessions, culture.

Food stuffs sprayed with chemicals...well, that is intensive farming for you, and is necessitated by demand for cheap food to feed a growing, dependent population. That that populace fails to recognise it's role in the cause and effect of that process is largely what I was referring to when I mentioned cultivating a climate of general ignorance, though I didn't use those specific terms I believe. The electromagnetic fog, ties into the materialism, combined with the percieved need for rapid communications...again, cause and effect, we cannot hope to have one without the other.

Addictive games...Yep, soma (in the 'Brave New World' sense) certainly, but escapism takes many forms, this is just the latest. I think that in all the instances described above that personal responsibility is key, and that seeing it as a 'control mechanism' is an abrogation of that personal responsibilty. Are you being manipulated? Of course you are. Do you have the ability to ignore and over-ride that manipulation? Absolutely. Is it a control system therefore? Not really.

cuckooold
Being hypnotised is a state that can be achieved by what using what seems to be a talismanic object (swinging pendulum, the ticking of a watch), but in fact said object(s) are utilised in a scientific fashion to try to put the subject into a state where their brain is no longer putting out Beta waves, but instead has slowed to the far more suggestible Alpha state.

You can be hypnotised by a simple touch on the shoulder and a few choice words, if you are susceptible and do not resist.

cuckooold
You don't think that those involved with MK-Ultra just decided to stop one day because they all of a sudden developed a conscience? If we want to talk Control Systems, I believe we live right in the middle of one of the most sophisticated machines ever built, its foundations in linguistics and psychology, but the medium through which this is communicated now is via the media and this electro-magnetic mechanical world we live in. The media is always with us and for the first time ever, 'they' can know virtually everything about us, to a fine degree. We also have the power to communicate on a far greater scale than ever before, but we truly live in the Global Panopticon (the Stasi could only dream of having such power).

Awareness, particularly self-awareness is key. We are highly suggestible beings I will agree with that. Much of the MK Ultra work stopped, or rather evolved because it was ineffective and the experiments were failures. It takes rather extreme methods to take possession of another's will entirely, unless the willingness exists, to some degree at least, on the part of the test subject. En masse, such methods are ineffective. Again, while I agree we are surrounded by the media it is, relatively, easy to tune out.

cuckooold
So can we be controlled? I'd ask myself if you feel a competent hypnotist could hypnotise you - if the answer to that question is yes, then absolutely. Perhaps not predictably, but I think humans are not dissimilar to dogs in many ways, and Pavlovian systems still wield as much power as they ever have.

In answer to the first question, no they cannot, I have tried repeatedly.

Dogs have entirely different responses to stimuli than we do, however, reduce us to that level of dependency, then yes, we can be trained by Pavlovian means but only for the duration of such confinement. Patty Hearst springs to mind.

cuckooold
Perhaps an adept of the mind, a true Jedi can see beyond the sigils used in advertising, and the ways consent can be manufactured (to paraphrase Chomsky), but for most of the populace, I think control is possible.
A relevant question is 'How much power do the powers that be have (and who are they?), and how effectively can they wield it'?

If you believe such 'sigils' have power over you, then of course they will, but it is all down to you.

cuckooold
Whether you like them or not is one thing, but some of those on ATS, especially certain people from the AMA sessions are or have been highly placed in Intel, and I've no illusions as to their competency at what they do, none at all.

Possibly, but I don't lose sleep over it. Ever

reply to post by DJW001


I'm not certain I agree with you.

Yes, I think it's difficult to change people's minds on what each person considers important to themself, but what about the idea of using the various places on the socio-economic/religious and cultural beliefs people have, and play them off against each other in order to satisfy an agenda.

Let's imagine that in politics there is no left or right, simply pure naked corporate fascism (sound far fetched anyone?). In order to not have the plebeian slaves in a constant state of anger and fomenting revolutions, why not create the illusion of choice (every 4 years we choose some guy with hopefully Presidential hair, and of course the next one will truly represent the people). Throw in a few tidbits, like allowing people of different colour skin, or allow gay people to 'buy in' to the system. The system doesn't really change but it controls opposition by throwing a bone.

In 2008 after the debacle of the Bush years, there was probably more chance of Nibiru being photographed for real than a Republican being elected. So hopey changey man of colour comes along, and it's going to be flowers and rainbows from here on in. Not..

What happened - I thought America was getting Jimmy Carter MK II, but what did they get? Bush on steroids!
The same financial-corporate manufacturers of Ponzi schemes are still where they were before and nothing's changed...

Oh, I forgot, people are angry because to those on the right Obama is a communist who is dismantling the constitution, and to those on the left he's an enormous disappointment, (who may pull out token gestures like allowing people who prefer their partner to be the same gender the same rights as everyone else).

You don't need to control everything people do (and if for some reason they do, they'll just declare martial law), you just need to influence certain outcomes whilst maintaining the illusion of choice. At least that's how I see it. A smart government will give away a few bones if the outcome is inevitable; gay marriage, or being permitted to have certain herbal medicines. This maintains the facade, so the people can be sort of happy they feel they can have an influence.

Meanwhile behind the facade, Obama is teleporting to Mars with Bassiago, going faster than light via their inter dimensional flux transport chambers, and building an intergalactic fleet of spaceships to declare war on the Intergalactic Confederation of Light Beings. Or perhaps not, but I do believe 'we, the people' are giving token gestures while those in power continue to shovel black budget money raised via narco-military activity into whatever they feel like, and I bet there are no congressional oversight committees for this sort of stuff.

KilgoreTrout

Well, you're mixing a lot of things in there together. Let's take ads though for an example, they generally work on the basis of encouraging consumerism and general dissatisfaction, they encourage both acquisition and covetous behaviourism, both of which maintain the status quo. The major financiers make the majority of their money, these days, through insurance of various kinds.

Yes, I am mixing a lot of things together.

I do believe advertising is a kind of hypnotism, or perhaps attempted mind control. Perhaps there may be semantic ambiguities in what I'm trying to articulate, so I'll endeavour to be as precise as I can be with regard to the lexicon used.

KilgoreTrout

Hypnosis though, although we are somewhat led to believe otherwise, is not all that easy to accomplish and depends much on the individual subjects upon whom it is applied. For that reason, amongst others, it will not yield great results conducted remotely, en masse. Power of suggestion, as I describe above, is far more effective. Creating a balance between advertisements that sell 'lifestyles' with programming that depicts crime works wonders in terms of conditioning. Particularly in a disposable, status defined by possessions, culture.

I don't necessarily disagree with you here, again, perhaps a matter of semantics

Food stuffs sprayed with chemicals...well, that is intensive farming for you, and is necessitated by demand for cheap food to feed a growing, dependent population. That that populace fails to recognise it's role in the cause and effect of that process is largely what I was referring to when I mentioned cultivating a climate of general ignorance, though I didn't use those specific terms I believe. The electromagnetic fog, ties into the materialism, combined with the percieved need for rapid communications...again, cause and effect, we cannot hope to have one without the other.

I just threw the chemicals out there as potentially having the power to influence us, but in general I don't believe they are intended for any nefarious purposes.I do wonder what detrimental effects there are, but yes, not especially pertinent to this discussion. Just getting into the 'Grand conspiratorial nature of things'

I will happily withdraw farming 'chemicals' from my discussion as irrelevant

I do think the electro-magnetic effect something worthy of discussion. I cannot with confidence say that living with this type of pollution has a detrimental effect on us (or not). We too are electro-magnetic, and it seems self evident to me that electrical and magnetic fields would have some level of interaction if inadequately shielded.

I do recommend reading another thread by the GUT, ‘Electromagnetism UFOs and the Weaponization of Alien Technology’, If anyone was going to explore weird and obscure applications of this technology, GUT’s got it covered.

KilgoreTrout

Addictive games...Yep, soma (in the 'Brave New World' sense) certainly, but escapism takes many forms, this is just the latest. I think that in all the instances described above that personal responsibility is key, and that seeing it as a 'control mechanism' is an abrogation of that personal responsibilty. Are you being manipulated? Of course you are. Do you have the ability to ignore and over-ride that manipulation? Absolutely. Is it a control system therefore? Not really.

Does a control system by it's nature not allow choice? I think coercion, persuasion, and personal compulsion can be utilised as forms of control, and the latter two are far more effective than coercion, as this gives one the impression of exercising free will. Yes, of course personal responsibility is highly relevant, but this doesn't negate the fact that society in completely hypocritical about this. For instance here in Australia we have big social problems with electronic gaming machines being available in nearly every pub. For those with gambling problems, of course personal responsibility needs to be exercised. However, to allow deregulation to such a degree, where those who own and install the machines are permitted to put them in such high concentrations, in low income areas where a greater percentage of people are on welfare is questionable.

It seems all the responsibility lies on the shoulders of those with a gambling problem, yet those who install and profit from the machines have no obligation or personal responsibility toward those they are exploiting. Is an electronic gambling machine a control system? They do to evoke a Pavlovian response, and from where I sit, I think these machines encourage the worst human character traits to come to the fore. They are heavily taxed, and the money goes back in the public health system, so the government have now created their own addiction to these machines.

KilgoreTrout
You can be hypnotised by a simple touch on the shoulder and a few choice words, if you are susceptible and do not resist.

Again semantics. Perhaps my language is inadequate here

KilgoreTrout

It takes rather extreme methods to take possession of another's will entirely, unless the willingness exists, to some degree at least, on the part of the test subject. En masse, such methods are ineffective. Again, while I agree we are surrounded by the media it is, relatively, easy to tune out.

A lot of the MK-Ultra stuff available for public reference indeed is crude. It is my belief that there has been plenty of 'fine-tuning', and that there have been some highly sophisticated techniques and technologies we know nothing of. With regards to tuning the media out, who does this? I do (I don't own or watch television), some of my friends do, but I am not in what I would consider to be the broader demographic. I believe people tune out the media they don't like or agree with, but are still highly influenced by what media they do consume.

I can use my mother as an example - refugees coming to Australia via boats is a big political issue. Highly politicised, and plenty of half-truths as well as outright lies, have come from both of the major parties. The information my mother receives is highly manipulated, and she believes it to be the truth. In the past I have actively sought out current and accurate information sans hyperbole. She does not want to acknowledge what I give her, as she prefers to get angry about about it. The government love this - they don't want people to know about international obligations like the fact that we are a formal signatory to 'The United Nations Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees' - no, they want to appeal to emotion, and they have more or less successfully wrestled mainstream opinion into their corner.

KilgoreTrout

In answer to the first question, no they cannot, I have tried repeatedly.

Dogs have entirely different responses to stimuli than we do

Perhaps hypnotise is the wrong term, perhaps not. It is my opinion that sufficient mechanisms exist to corral belief and opinion in certain directions to enable obfuscation of whatever 'they' wish to remain hidden. Perhaps instead of hypnotism I could suggest there's a blending of a variety of techniques; maybe applying some variation on the 'Delphi Method' is amongst their arsenal

edit on 14-2-2014 by cuckooold because: (no reason given)

continued...

I am of the belief that there are certain symbols and patterns that are in the 'collective subconscious', for want of a better term. I do think advertising uses certain hypnotic techniques, and brand logos are an interesting phenomena. For instance, many different nations that possess some sort of space industry use the 'Chevron' symbol in their logo. I don't know about these sigils having power or not, but considering the money spent developing a logo (which to me seems highly similar in function as to my understanding of why sigils were employed in the 'magic tradition' they seem important to the organisation utilising them.

I am of the belief that advertising uses a lot of techniques that may not differ greatly from some techniques used by those who practice/believe in the Western magical tradition. I do think that there is a pervasive new-agism that has permeated through Western culture so thoroughly, that advertising seems just the sort of industry to incorporate and utilise 'new age' speak.

I consider myself to be a little different to the mainstream, and it is not myself I am speaking of here, although yes, I do believe someone of certain ability could probably use my own knowledge, experience and intelligence against me to further an agenda, without my knowledge. I don't think there are enough people like me to constitute a threat, and I don't constitute a threat. Ergo, it's simply easier to be aware of who is who, and worry if a sufficient opposition appears to be coalescing. A threatening organisation, like the Zapatista(s) in Mexico in the 1990s at the time of NAFTA, yes, they were a threat, and they were dealt with

reply to post by cuckooold


I think you have strayed way off topic. None of your paranoid fantasies of 'power over' have anything to do with what Vallee was talking about.

reply to post by DJW001


It seems you have some cognitive impairment, with an inability to contextualise, and there also looks to be a severe deficiency in your abstraction faculties.

I'd read it over a few times, but my suspicion is that acuity is also missing, and little can be done except to read heavily concrete texts with zero deviation into any sort of ambiguity.

KilgoreTrout

Brotherman
reply to post by The GUT

 

I told you before the control system is literally the lies, you control what people believe (belief definition google that shizz if you need to here)

Nah...if history has taught us anything, it should be that you cannot control what people believe. Too many people have died for their beliefs for that to be the case. You can control what people are allowed to believe openly, and practice publicly, but in the privacy of their own heads, not so much. Potentially, you can cultivate a climate of reasonable doubt in core beliefs, you can destabilise 'belief' altogether, or you can limit education and opportunity to the extent that the frame of reference is highly constrained, thus fostering primal superstition and xenophobia, but control it, no, with that I disagree entirely. At best, you can lead to the water...

Dr Jacques Vallee would agree with what I had said in which you reply the adverse to. For example:

"... It doesn't matter if UFO's are real or not, if enough people believe something is real, then its real. In its, in its effects in social reality, in terms of social reality in terms of what people act according to their beliefs and you know and that opens the question of I have read at 2 levels could the UFO phenomenon be manipulating us, could they leave us a teaching system of some sort perhaps something that we are creating ourselves perhaps a series of images that we have projected I think are you have came close in illustrating in his books. Could it be manipulated purposely by people who have the technology to simulate UFO sightings and people say well of course not who would do a thing like that? Well I would remind you during Watergate during the Watergate investigation it was discovered that there was a plan originated in the white house to surface a submarine off the coast of Cuba and paints the second coming of Christ over the island of Cuba using holograms, which is well within our technology today. The idea was that their is such a large Catholic population into about they would be so upset by this vision that this would such a raid on the communication channels you know telephone system in Cuba long enough for new vision to take place..."
Dr. Jacques Vallee



Doctor Vallee is unique that he observes our lack of understanding of space in time and is a proponent more or less the the UFO Phenomenon is demonic in nature so to speak. He doesn't think that UFOs are ETs and has often noted the physiological, psychological, and social manipulation taking place. An individual does not have to believe in something per se when the vast majority do believe it is still a direct effect upon the non believer regardless. It is a very social phenomenon and I also have my suspicions that what we classify as UFO phenomenon is a lot more complex then simply visitors from other places in outer space.

My interest here is Vallee’s control system statements and the ramifications and definitions of it, and most importantly any hidden meaning to his assertions.

What is pertinent literally is this question:

Do the PTB have, and have they had, an interest in molding the view, of the AlienUFO phenomenon, of humans. In other words have they intervened and stopped the extremists such as Cooper, Schneider, Bennewitz, Carla Tucker and others form creating a worldwide paradigm of alien danger amongst us?

And consequently have people like Green, Doty and others replace this” aliens are going to eat us” with a more benign alien amongst us paradigm?

Actually we evidence of both above propositions.

Imo that is what this thread should be interested in.

This is the pertinent question because if it is answered in the affirmative it may tell us something directly about the phenomenon..

reply to post by Willtell


These are interesting proponents you have brought up, the only thing I believe you left out is the last part regarding these "visitors" as again Vallee and others have suggested that what you are describing could in fact not be visitors in the sense of ET or as he says whatever they are and could also be projections of something more earthly or something yet unknown by physics and of mathematical description today. Star for you though very thought out reply and certainly food for thought!

reply to post by Brotherman


That’s partly true but they still are visitors since we don’t know where they are from.

They may be from underground, underwater, a missing planet, ID, Multi-Dimensional( the most likely, imo) or wherever…they still are visiting our consciousness and disappearing.

reply to post by Willtell


Again it is only speculation we truly have at this point. I don't mean to argue semantics here but do want to reinforce the notion that if this phenomenon is carried out but a collective intelligence then of course we could label them visitors, but either way this is the type of phenomenon that happens to sit outside of our contemporary knowledge of math and physics in reality we at this point do not know what we are dealing with here. It is a great mystery and I do whole heartedly understand what you are saying and why you replied in such a way towards me. It is a very vast topic and your contribution was pretty awesome.