US admits possible failure in Iraq as Resistance is gathering Momentum

LOL, what good is an election if people cant participate because of the fighting?
This is not a very realistic comment.

Please tell us how you think the voting is going to take place. Thank you

Marg, I respect your opinions, but I sense a feeling of an unhealthy cynicism from you.

Civilian casualties will go down if the insurgents didn�t blow them selves up in crowded areas (real martyrs, eh?)

Not everything happening in Iraq is shady and evil. I never see any news stories that show courage and bravery of our soldiers and Iraqi citizens living through this onslaught. I never see news stories that show American and British soldiers rebuilding schools, hospitals, and shelters.

Iraq was a ticking time bomb, action was inevitable

Originally posted by GODFLESH
Marg, I respect your opinions, but I sense a feeling of an unhealthy cynicism from you.

Iraq was a ticking time bomb, action was inevitable

I thanks you for your honesty, but you are right, I have been a cynic, but I got my reasons, its going to take many more casualties and and years for that country to be tame.

Iraq was no a ticking bomb the invasion has made it now. And the sad part is that the explosion has not happend yet.

And our troops are not at fault for doing the job that they were told to do.

I always blame our administration for the poor planning and for the worst evil that has brought to that country.

Sure they'll have elections guys, and they'll be very similar to our elections, and Afghanistan's. Who would've guessed Karzai would have been elected? Allawi's chances are looking pretty good. Maybe Diebold will be providing the voting kiosks, and since the entirety of Iraq is already under a terror threat, there will be no need to fabricate one to lock down the vote counting.

And the notion that the more insurgents we kill, the closer Iraq is to "democracy", is completely false. We will have to commit genocide on the Iraqi people to achieve that objective, there is no finite number of insurgents like some video game. The more innocent Iraqi families, women children, etc. we maim and kill taking out insurgents ("collateral damage" sounds so impersonal), the more insurgents we create, when the war was in it's early stages, they said there were a couple thousand, now we're up around the twenty thousand mark. I know if my son, or anybody close to me for that matter, were killed by an invading army, throw me a mask and a gun because I would be ready to join my son, and I would take out as many of those invaders as possible. And the sad thing is those invaders would probably have kids of their own back at home, kids whose fathers may be dying for some greedy old men that made them believe they are in danger from our country, and those men invading would just be doing what they thought was right.

Originally posted by dgtempe
No, i have respect for you. I never said you were an idiot, dont put words in my mouth.

I do think you should listen to the other side of the story though. It wouldnt hurt. Us lefties arent crazy, we just have our own beliefs, thats all.

I know you didn't call me names and I'm not putting words in my mouth. You told me I needed to go get ready for school or something to that effect. A not so subtle way of accusing me of youthful ignorance. So yes young and stupid is what you were in a way calling me. Which is fine by me. I know you mean only limited disrespect.

Yes I did call another poster a name and I got warned for it. I did not attack this poster or try to discredit him because of any disagreement I had with him. I read his post and after he expressed wishes and hopes of harm on the president I decided to call it like I saw it. Was I wrong? Yes. Do I stand by my post? You bet your fanny I do.

My point is I have not seen F911. I don't plan to for one reason. I have seen other M. Moore material and independently researched the subjects and found him to be a liar. Plain and simple. Sometimes he doesn't out right say something false but presents information in a way so as to intentionally leave you with a false impression.

I do look at the other side. I mostly side with the administration but that doesn't mean I always agree with them. I think we should have invaded Iraq sooner than we did but I understand the world would have been even more upset with us.

I don't understand why the world has not wanted to do anything to enforce the resolutions they have made. It just destroys their credibility. Anyone who has children knows that if you threaten to punish a child for a certain behavior but you fail to follow through the child will continue the behavior regardless of what else you say. Now I understand it is much more complicated than that but that is basically how it works. Now that Iraq has gotten it I know that our credibility will be good if we threaten North Korea or Iran.

Why does democracy have to be a sham in Iraq? Will we help put a US favoring government together? Yes, it would be stupid not to.

But unless you are really out there and think that we don't really have a democracy in the US, I don't see why you think we would not allow one to take place in Iraq.

[edit on 21-11-2004 by imas]

We have our own:

Originally posted by GODFLESH

3. The more resistance fighters we kill, the closer Iraq will become a free society.

And if we apply this principle across the board, we soon will have a world composed exclusively of rich, white, Christian humans. (I use the term loosely.)

...IMHO - Killing one's opposition is not the answer, whether it's done socially, intellectually or literally. There are other ways to address conflict, and different solutions to small and large problems.



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Originally posted by soficrow
...IMHO - Killing one's opposition is not the answer, whether it's done socially, intellectually or literally. There are other ways to address conflict, and different solutions to small and large problems.

Well then how exactly would you address the issue of the insurgents? Aside from acceding to thier demands?

Originally posted by FredT

Originally posted by soficrow
...IMHO - Killing one's opposition is not the answer, whether it's done socially, intellectually or literally. There are other ways to address conflict, and different solutions to small and large problems.

Well then how exactly would you address the issue of the insurgents? Aside from acceding to thier demands?

I would do it the "Christian" way and kill the movement at the core, with 'kindness.' ...I would provide food, water and jobs (ie., meet basic needs as well as provide evidence of opportunity and hope for the future).

...The insurgents are reacting to what they see as injustice - remove the 'injustice', and you remove their rationale and support.



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Originally posted by soficrow
...The insurgents are reacting to what they see as injustice - remove the 'injustice', and you remove their rationale and support.

The insurgents are motivated by religion and many of thier ranks are not even Iraqi citizens but foreign fighters that are being used as political pawns. I doubt that if the U.S. pulled out af Iraq they would simply lay down arms and dance a jig, but rather move on to other goals in the region.

Originally posted by FredT

Originally posted by soficrow
...The insurgents are reacting to what they see as injustice - remove the 'injustice', and you remove their rationale and support.

The insurgents are motivated by religion ...I doubt that if the U.S. pulled out af Iraq they would simply lay down arms and dance a jig, but rather move on to other goals in the region.

...Supposedly, the majority of US voters (and presumably fighters) also are motivated by religion. Just a different one.

...And I didn't say the US should pull out. I said, "I would provide food, water and jobs (ie., meet basic needs as well as provide evidence of opportunity and hope for the future)," thus removing the insurgents' rationale and support.

...I think it's time to quit making excuses, accept responsibility for creating the mess - and get it cleaned up. The resources exist -in Iraqi oil profits- so use the money for the nation's people instead of funneling it wherever it's going.



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This is a failure of the people of Iraq and not that of the liberator. Freedom is a value that comes from the human spirit. Democracy is not a given to an individual but must be earned.

Originally posted by soficrow
...And I didn't say the US should pull out. I said, "I would provide food, water and jobs (ie., meet basic needs as well as provide evidence of opportunity and hope for the future)," thus removing the insurgents' rationale and support.

Hmm, what I think your are failing to realize is that no matter what you offer to the insurgents, they will simply continue on thier path. Why do you think that peace in the Middle East ie. Palestine and Israel is so hard? There are extreme elements on both ends that have no vested interest in peace. Any capitulation to them or thier demands will be seen as weakness and make the situation worse.

Originally posted by flycatch
Democracy is not a given to an individual but must be earned.

So you're saying that the US should never have invaded Iraq to 'save the Iraqis from Saddam Hussein' and bring them democracy?

....Also, a group of ragtag insurgents rose up in North America about 200 years ago, wrested control of the continent from the British and established a democracy. Because the British insisted on keeping the best for themselves.



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Originally posted by soficrow
I would do it the "Christian" way and kill the movement at the core, with 'kindness.' ...I would provide food, water and jobs (ie., meet basic needs as well as provide evidence of opportunity and hope for the future).

...The insurgents are reacting to what they see as injustice - remove the 'injustice', and you remove their rationale and support.

We're not talking about a soup kitchen here. Just Western influence or a western presence is enough for them. They hate Christianity.

Do you realize that if we pull troops back and insert aid workers that we will just hand them the country? The ones chopping heads off will become Iraq's leadership. Is that what you want? Because thats what they want. Why do you think they are fighting so fiercly?