Before written law... Was religion a spoken rule book to aid civilisation?

I often wonder if religion and gods came about as a way of controlling growing numbers in populations and as people gained power over the centuries and then comes the miracles ect. Think about the elections today and how "all these good things will happen when im in office" statements come around. I have not said I beleive or do not and simply said that I wonder, I dont aim to upset anyone and please bear with me this is my 1st thread.

michael1888
I often wonder if religion and gods came about as a way of controlling growing numbers in populations and as people gained power over the centuries and then comes the miracles ect. Think about the elections today and how "all these good things will happen when im in office" statements come around. I have not said I beleive or do not and simply said that I wonder, I dont aim to upset anyone and please bear with me this is my 1st thread.

IMO, it was and still is used as a two pronged psychological tool...an effective one too.

To control the people absolutely, and to extort monies and value from the same.

It's about the holy trinity and always has been...Control, money and power.

And that is it. The rest is window dressing for the gullible and those seeking meaning in what they intuitively feel in the bowels of their psyche...as their own worthlessness and terror of death...regardless of what they fool themselves 'they believe'.

And yes, that is a fairly pompous thing to say...but not a tiny patch of the arrogance and pomposity of organised religions and those that are happy to be herded along by them.

First off, congrats on your first thread. I hope you'll be encouraged and - or compelled to post more. Second, don't worry about ruffling other peoples feathers.


You've asked a legitimate critical fundamental question in my opinion. The root of the whole 'The Powers That Be' scenario/paradigm eh?

I've often imagined the high Priests of this or that early Civilization/Culture being fairy educated and sophisticated. Those priests knowing when the next lunar eclipse would happen etc etc etc. The less educated/sophisticated masses would fall for the priests calling upon their 'Powers' to block out the sun thus proving they were powerful or the tools of this or that deity to simply elevate their status, power, prestige or standing in the community ABOVE others.

In ancient Egypt for example. I've read how the Priests at first were there to help the people attain the "Lightness of Heart" through education and shared practice but over time were corrupted with greed to the point where they would simply have the people pay them to do this or that ceremony or have them buy this or that idol and all would be set right.

Separation of Church and State.

Started out great. Man freeing himself from the controlling powers of the Church, learning to Govern himself based on Law vs Dogma. Sadly over time a new type of 'Church' was created. Banks and political elites. Controlling and manipulating everything.

Man originally built the largest buildings dedicated to a 'God' now the largest buildings are for Banking, Business and Commerce and sadly not for the Social or Mental well being of his fellow man.

Just a couple of morning coffee pennies tossed in.

I'm reminded of a story a Man told me once.

This was decades ago,
back when States got to keep the taxes from oil drilled in their area,
and Louisiana State University was booming, bringing in the best professors.

My friends' dad is the foremost authority on Library Science in the US at the time,
and leading the switch to digital from the old card catalog Dewey Decimal system.


Anyway,
one weekend I was spending the night having a sleepover with his son,
who had just been sent out in his first-ever Truck to run some errands,
so I have nothing to do for an hour
and I walk into his darkened Study
where he is sitting on the couch laughing.


Feeling he was in a friendly mood I timidly walked in.


On the TV there is an old black and white movie playing. He tells me it's one of his favorites "Dr Strangelove" so I sit down in the recliner and watch a bit with him. After the scene where General Turgidson takes a phone call, that his scantily clad secretary screens for him, I chuckled too.

The Professor looked at me suspiciously, like I was just giggling cause he said the movie was funny.

Defensively I said to him "That's just like when my Mom talks to my Grandfather long distance. This movie really shows the generation gap." And smiled.

He warmed up and started asking me about the things his son and I had been up to
working at our first Jobs together. I told him how the first time I went they didn't hire me, but after telling him about it, his son said "watch this" put on a "Jesus First" T-shirt and we went back and applied together. We both got hired on the spot. And that's how his son helped me get my first Job.

He sat up a little bit, and confided in me.

"You know. When I was studying Library Science, I went to libraries all over the world. One day, in the back of an old library. Underneath a broken down shelf. Forgotten in a pile of ruined books. I found a passage that explained how the Ancient Gods decided that from now on they would be known Collectively as just God. In the singular. That is the day I lost my faith."

His son got back and we went and did different things. I understood that he meant that his son was being Ironic with the T-shirt and just manipulating the emotions of a prospective employer. And that faith is no substitute for Education.



Since that day my own research indicates ...


8347 b.c.

According to Maya the first creation
numbers are invented

3147 b.c.

According to the Maya: Tzolkin 4-hau Haab 8-Cumku
"Was seen the image of the turtle"
Letters are invented

3140 b.c.

According to the Maya: 13th Baktun completed
"Era of Gods" closed
world destroyed by man eating jaguars
Begin Second Creation

To answer the question: writing was invented seven years before Monotheism,
but the sense of divinity seems to be eternal.

Mike Grouchy

Religion meant something very different to ancient peoples over what it means to use today. It was a method of investigating reality and philosophical questions for large groups in a community.

Look at the Jewish people and Jesus for example ... Jesus's parables often involved the financial situation of the Jewish people, and this makes an incredible amount of sense. The Jewish people were being taxed by bother the Romans and Jewish elite simultaneously, so stories such as the merchant paying wages in the vineyard make a lot of sense in that context.

It's the same with the constant rewritings and retellings of stories such as Noah's Ark. These stories were used as a framework to convey not just spiritual or religious identity, but logical meanings about life. A teacher would retell the story of Noah's Ark through a new lens and leave it for the people to decide and defer meaning. In Jesus's time this was also incredibly important to avoid discussing rebellion in an open space.

Instead of directly accusing Rome or another powerful entity of wrong doing, it was prudent to set out a story explaining that wrong doing first and then let the people evaluated and discuss amongst themselves. These stories are also much more powerful to humans than mere logical discussion ... take the golden rule for example ... it wasn't invented by Christians, but Christians have managed to make a pretty good story to make it memorable.

Religion has never been good exactly or bad exactly. People are bad, people with bad logic make mistakes, people are good, people with good logic can make good beneficial examples for others. I think people read too much into this controlling aspect of religion sometimes ... because it doesn't a religious or irreligious person to convey an evil idea in such a way that it sounds good and convincing ...

My only dislike regarding religion is that people forget that the stories are meant to deliver a point to discuss and consider, they're not meant to be a fact delivered through a story to be burdened by. Early Jewish people didn't treat Noah's Ark as an unchangeable narrative, why do some of us?

reply to post by michael1888


My theory is that people have an ingrained need to believe in something. You see it everywhere in everyone. For some, it leads to faith. For others, it leads to causes. For a few, it leads to a profound emptiness they cannot fill no matter how hard they try.

For our early ancestors, they filled that need by coming up with explanations for the things they didn't understand about the world around them or experiences they had. As time progressed, they also realized a need to underscore vows and other things. They used the gods to back these up. Think about it - which vow carries more weight, the one you make just to another human being who is no more constant than yourself or the one you make before a being your believe to have omniscient, supernatural powers?

I think it just organically came about as a steadily more complex process.

And yes, I believe in God. I tend to think that fact that we have a tendency to need to believe at all, something that certainly serves no evolutionary purpose, is just one sign of His existence.

OP, I always had the same basic idea that religion, that means the relation of man with the creation, was a tool to help society function. But, as with many other tools a society develops, it has been hijacked by some people to make it a tool of extreme control.

---

mikegrouchy: That's interesting. You should make a thread about what you just posted. I wanna know more about it now.

NowanKenubi

mikegrouchy: That's interesting. You should make a thread about what you just posted. I wanna know more about it now.

ATS Thread: New research; The history of timekeeping
posted on Aug, 28 2013 @ 12:55 PM
Flags: 7
Stars: 4


The reader probably won't like it though.

I'm quite the egotistical twat throughout the thread.

Mike Grouchy

reply to post by mikegrouchy


Man, you're fast! You even did it retroactively! lol

Thanks for that.

Your count of flags and stars for it is now wrong tho... lol

Yes.

reply to post by michael1888


Hi

I think you're right, although I want to be really pedantic and say Gods and religions are two very different things. I've come to the conclusion that organised religions play another role, and that is the suppression of women in society.
I've been reading lately, about how it is thought that women in Pict society would have had the role of spiritual leaders, and with that have knowledge of astrology, medicine and other important information.

In contrast, whether or not it was the intention, women certainly don't feature largely in the major religions today. Coincidence or conspiracy?

IMO, it was and still is used as a two pronged psychological tool...an effective one too.

I agree

reply to post by michael1888


It seems to me that in antiquity there was not so much a religious system as there was simply different philosophies of life, which most had a central theme. These philosophies were derived from myths handed down. The "Law of One" seems to creep up a lot throughout my readings of antiquity, even though there were indeed mention of "God's". God's were perhaps under the "Law of One"? Perhaps originating from Atlantis. I just don't know...

This above can be viewed as possible ( Law of One) IF ( big IF) you believe there are people who can "see" into our past ( like Edgar Cayce) and believe that Atlantis (15000 yrs ago) was in fact real and upheld teachings with the "Law of One".

Seems like this above requires "faith" in ones who have passed on knowledge that may be riddled in a theme.

Ancient mythologies tell us stories that may be real, literal, metaphorical, etc...

Most speak of a deluge. The Maya tells us the "Old World" was destroyed by water.

Across the globe mythologies say that after the great deluge (flood) a teacher came out of the sea. Is the flood a literal meaning or metaphor for "spirit"? More questions than answers, I'm afraid.

Many speculate about Atlantis... Primitive people existed w/the Atlanteans and they traded among one another... or so says Plato. The story is they had extrasensory perceptions. Very different than what we have today or mixed in today's society as abnormal or a type of phenomenon.

King Solomon and Priest of the Most High, Melchizedek, spoke of "jinns" who came out of a "special ring" by rubbing it, and was said to help build the temple. Ancient texts ( such as Enoch) speak of people with powers, flying on carpets, ET's (sent from the heavens) coming to help civilizations.

Very mystical I'd say. All say there was a "disobedience" which aided failure or destruction of the civilization.


Poseidon may have been a real entity.. we just don't know. Supposedly after this deluge a being came out of the sea. (Atlantes) He taught them plenty, gave them written language, taught them astrology, built a government, and so on and went back into the sea and disappeared. He promised to return.

I am saying all of this because all we have to go on is mythologies, including but not limited to the Bible and other ancient texts. Enoch tells us we will be confused for a period of 3000 plus years ( cant remember exact years) before the Priest of the Most High (Melchizedek) can return to aid us.

Today though we can clearly see the control of the masses by three major mythologies that have sustained the test of time. Out of fear they have controlled people. Buddhism, in my opinion is the light which holds no fear, thus one that has also sustained the test of time.

In summary it seems to me.. The abuse of power and energy = disobedience.. thus the fall of man and continues to befall man.

Below is a lecture of one of my favorite teachers of antiquity. He seems quite literate in regards to history, legends, myths, and so on.

Back in the beginning they didn't have access to the texts as we all do today, and your speaking about even before the word was written. Regardless - someone in those days was assigned to share wisdom.

Did they exploit that? We know people have but did the first people do so - put their spin on it, which was distorted, and then used it as a way to control? I would say no. This would not have been the intention of the very first person/people who facilitated relationship with God.

Imagine the one assigned to dole out wisdom on Transcendence/God/Spirit - something all sense but don't know how to achieve - or want more insight on). This person is peaceful; humble. How do people respond to that? How do we respond to people who want to share control (leaders we look to make our decisions and problem solve in particular)?
Would you judge them as strong? Or would it be easy for another to push them out and take over because we want charisma, direction, problems fixed, questions answered?

Unless lessons in humility are present - to reveal the value of that - assert it is being done on purpose, people would most likely see someone like that as weak.

We see this today and we are evolved so why wouldnt it have applied then? The Dahli Lama has these qualities and noone following his teachings has pushed him out or see him as anything other than wise I'm sure. But doesn't he also teach people to think for themselves, facilitate integration and relationship, and to value humility? Didn't Jesus try to teach that as well? Haven't we been reminded time and again to overcome this side of our nature - to give power away and worship things and people?

Do we give power to quiet and intropectove people whose aim is to empower us? Or do we give power to people who tell us everything is going to be ok if we do X, Y, and Z?

Noone made anything up to control people. Control is freely given because it's how we're made. Today we all have equal access to information. However - few seem to be utilizing (or understanding it). The tendency to give that job to another is overwhelming.

As a side note - people who use their own wisdom to empower others to achieve everything they have or more are out there. It's just that they are not as visible (because if your willing to do that your also probably meek - someone who does not desire attention). They get too much attention and for sure glory - they resist it and people then may turn elsewhere. So when we understand that we create the condition we can understand why religion and control are used so often in the same sentence. It likely didn't start out that way (in the VERY beginning) though.