Rendlesham Forest…, A Christmas Story from 1980 - Can We ‘Let it Be’?

originally posted by: ctj83
a reply to: Guest101

This Halt gap corresponds with a few alleged incidents.
[...]
The second is what a whistleblower told Randles - that on the tape before the battle Halt got closer and exclaimed "Oh my God, it's a Ma...'
[...]
I can't say it fits with any other story including Bustinza's!

Never heard anything about a 'battle', but Bustinza also called it a ‘machine’ when he elaborated his close encounter back in 1984 (in his interview with Larry Fawcett):

”Hold on, let me see. Colonel Halt, when we approached the machine , I remember Colonel Halt said–I remember Larry. I don’t know why they picked Larry, but I remember Larry was going up there, and I was so scared I don’t know what to think. I was in a foreign country, you know.

Isn’t that still the heart of the matter, even after 37 years? A strange gap on the Halt tape that coincides with statements from a witness who claims he was within six to ten feet of a landed craft, a machine?

”LF – Adrian, describe what the machine looked like.
AB – That I won’t forget. It was the first time I’ve seen one like it. It was circular shaped it looked like a pancake. It was thick in the middle, and it would narrow out toward the edges. I seen lights, all kind of lights. It would have been a beautiful sight, you know. The lights were so bright that I could only see certain parts of the craft, and there were a bunch of little gadgets on it, too, like some planes got, and other little gadgets that I never even seen on aircraft before.
LF – Was it made of metal?
AB – I would assume.
LF – OK. About how close did you get to this thing?
AB – I’d say I was about, within six to ten feet of it.
LF – And how big was it?
AB – About as wide as an A-10. From what I could see in the beginning, it was very big, but I couldn’t really tell exactly how big as big as a medium-sized house, I would say.
LF – And larger than maybe twelve feet?
AB – Yes, in height, definitely yes.
LF – And how big are the A-10s in length?
AB – About forty feet.
LF – You didn’t see any engines on this machine, right?
AB – No, I didn’t.
LF – Did the colors change at all?
AB – The colors were constantly changing while I was there. I remember, it was different colors, and they just, like, go on and off or go to a lower shade.
LF – When the machine was down on the ground, what color was the body of the machine?
AB – I’d say like a blackish grayish.
LF – Black or grayish. And did the machine glow at all when it took off? Did the lights change?
AB – The lights, yes. That’s what it did. It turned, like, into a ball of light.
LF – The whole machine?
AB – The whole machine. And it was like a glow around it, and it just took off.”

I am not going to dwell on this but it forms part of the Rendlesham story.

Peter Robbins has now made a 4 billion word statement on the ongoing saga with his 'Left at East Gate' co-author Larry Warren and it looks like he will ask the book publishers to make a decision on whether it stays in print too.

Read it in full here.

a reply to: mirageman

Peter Robbins has now made a 4 billion word statement

He should join forces with Hanson.

Now imagine that ?

Actually, perhaps its best not to imagine.

The theatrics will keep one entertained
for a very long time if nothing else.

originally posted by: mirageman
I am not going to dwell on this but it forms part of the Rendlesham story.

Peter Robbins has now made a 4 billion word statement on the ongoing saga with his 'Left at East Gate' co-author Larry Warren and it looks like he will ask the book publishers to make a decision on whether it stays in print too.

Read it in full here.

Wow… This story may shed a completely different light on the third night.

It seems that Larry fabricated at least one of the reactions published in the first pages of LAEG: The one coming from Steve Laplume.

If we cannot trust the citations in LAEG, how do we know we can we trust the transcript of Fawcett’s interview with Adrian Bustinza? Was it also edited to suit Larry’s story?

This is of vital importance because the major discrepancies between Bustinza’s account and that of Halt & Nevels are rooted in the transcript of this interview.
If this interview can be thrown out of the window, the story of the third night becomes pretty consistent: All three witnesses that have come forward (Halt, Nevels, and Bustinza) describe seeing a hovering constellation of lights that disappeared in a flash - a constellation of lights that looked like the one in John’s original witness statement.

Does anyone know if a verbatim transcript of Fawcett’s interview with Bustinza has been published before LAEG? For instance in the book ‘Clear Intent’? And to what extend it matches the one in LAEG?

Better still: Maybe someone is able to reach Bustinza and let him read the transcript in LAEG to establish whether it is accurate?

Steve Laplume was pretty furious when he found out about the false citation. I can imagine Bustinza would like to set things straight, too.

a reply to: mirageman


I dont know what's worse, a man faking a photo with Lennon a week prior to his death, or one grown man asking another grown man to stop being Facebook friends with people. That's strange to me.

a reply to: Guest101

Does anyone know if a verbatim transcript of Fawcett’s interview with Bustinza has been published before LAEG?

Clear Intent is long out of print. A quick web search seems to provide sources referenced from LEAG. For example : PDF transcript of Interview or Text transcript

I'm working on it but aren't sure whether I can find something.

NOTE : another thing that might be a red herring is how Bustinza in that interview mentions helicopters

LARRY FAWCETT - OK. As you were going through now, Larry said all of a sudden, they could see lights coming through the woods and he could als o hear helicopters over above.

ADRIAN BUSTINZA - Yes, a squadron, Para rescue squadron was activated.

LARRY FAWCETT - Para rescue . Where were they from? Woodbridge?

ADRIAN BUSTINZA - Woodbridge they weren’t very far away as a matter of fact. LARRY FAWCETT - Do you know how many were up at the time?

ADRIAN BUSTINZA - I recall Major Zickler said, scramble two, I believe he said.

On a completely random note I also noticed this quoted from LEAG. It concerns an interview Larry Fawcett made with Greg Battram

We had an alert over there for exercises and things about once or twice a month. And during those times, all the back- office people would go on a security post, additional posting and stuff out there. So, the night we saw the UFO, we were out there on duty, on one of these exercises, and it was nighttime. Nothing going on but we all still had to be there, and we were driving around on Woodbridge base on a perimeter patrol, and we saw some lights up in the sky, and it looked a lot different from any other aircraft we had ever seen.

So Battram is at least inferring that when he was out there that an exercise was going on? Or is just he thought that was the case?

originally posted by: spinalremain
a reply to: mirageman


I dont know what's worse, a man faking a photo with Lennon a week prior to his death, or one grown man asking another grown man to stop being Facebook friends with people. That's strange to me.

You will find that with Rendlesham Facebook becomes a metaphor for the whole story. People are friended and unfriended and flamed and quoted. Sometimes they are even liked. Only to be not so liked as time passes.

You will find that with Rendlesham Facebook becomes a metaphor for the whole story. People are friended and unfriended and flamed and quoted. Sometimes they are even liked. Only to be not so liked as time passes.

An entire novel could be dedicated to this alone. Some of which is pretty brutal.

I'm guessing that no one else picked up on this, I thought someone would have. It continually surprises me how much you can get from just reading.

Uri Geller was one of the first proposed people in the 'Anomalous Mental Phenomena' group (AMP). He had an early encounter with a UAP as a child. In Jacobsen's 'Phenomenon Book' we are told of Dr Kit Green's UAP treatment group of around 100. John and Annie put that figure to 70 surviving members (which fits the survival rate Kit quotes). The UAP group involves people who have had close exposure to airborne phenomena.

Dr Green notes a pattern between UAP exposure, repeat encounters and AMP. From the Burroughs / LHM / Jacobsen interview we also know that this isn't just Dr Green's theory, or even group. It's Hal Puthoffs as well. They propose that along with inflammation, immunological changes there are also genetic markers. They may be epigenetic, hereditary or a combination. The implication being that people like Burrougs are special like people with AMP like Burroughs.

Consider that Geller was a remote viewer who impressed both Puthoff and Dr Green. Isn't it logical, even necessary, that John would be tested for AMP and or remote viewing capabilities. That some similar sort of test must have also been offered to Penniston? Were any of the airmen involved in the incident point-men at some earlier stage in their military career?

a reply to: ctj83

You are getting very interesting Ctj83.

Keep going

a reply to: ctj83

This whole connection is an interesting conundrum.

Uri Geller was one of the first proposed people in the 'Anomalous Mental Phenomena' group (AMP). He had an early encounter with a UAP as a child.

There are many people who think Uri Geller is nothing but a very clever conjuror. James Randi has rumbled him and others too. I think the guy is brilliant as an entertainer and in the field of positive thinking. But does he have secret powers?




However we do know that what became PROJECT STARGATE ( from the earlier - GONDOLA WISH, GRILL FLAME, CENTER LANE, SUN STREAK, SCANATE) was real and although we are told it was never useful in any intelligence operation there are stories that this did succeed at times. (Why continue for 20+ years if it was never useful?)..........

But it seemed to be hit and miss.



Joe McMoneagle, a retired Special Project Intelligence Officer for SSPD, SSD, and 902d MI Group, claims to have left Stargate in 1984 with a Legion of Merit Award for providing information on 150 targets that were unavailable from other sources.

In 1974 one remote viewer appeared to have correctly described an airfield with a large gantry and crane at one end of the field. The airfield at the given map coordinates was the Soviet nuclear testing area at Semipalatinsk -- a possible underground nuclear testing site. In general, however, most of the receiver's data were incorrect or could not be evaluated.

A "remote viewer" was tasked to locate a Soviet Tu-95 bomber which had crashed somewhere in Africa, which he allegedly did within several miles of the actual wreckage.

In September 1979 the National Security Council staff asked about a Soviet submarine under construction. The remote viewer reported that a very large, new submarine with 18-20 missile launch tubes and a "large flat area" at the aft end would be launched in 100 days. Two subs, one with 24 launch tubes and the other with 20 launch tubes and a large flat aft deck, were reportedly sighted in 120 days.

One assignment included locating kidnapped BG James L. Dozier, who had been kidnapped by the Red Brigades in Italy in 1981. He was freed by Italian police after 42 days, apparently without help from the psychics. [according to news reports, Italian police were assisted by "US State and Defense Department specialists" using electronic surveillance equipment, an apparent reference to the Special Collection Service]

Another assignment included trying to hunt down Gadhafi before the 1986 bombing of Libya, but Gadhafi was not injured in the bombing.

In February 1988 DIA asked where Marine Corps COL William Higgins was being held in Lebanon. A remote viwer stated that Higgins was in a specific building in a specific South Lebanon village, and a released hostage later said to have claimed that Higgins had probably been in that building at that time.

In January 1989 DOD was said to have asked about Libyan chemical weapons work. A remote viewer reported that ship named either Patua or Potua would sail from Tripoli to transport chemicals to an eastern Libyan port. Reportedly, a ship named Batato loaded an undetermined cargo in Tripoli and brought to an eastern Libyan port.

Reportedly a remote-viewer "saw" that a KGB colonel caught spying in South Africa had been smuggling information using a pocket calculator containing a communications device. It is said that questioniong along these lines by South African intelligence led the spy to cooperate.

During the Gulf War remote-viewers were reported to have suggested the whereabouts of Iraq's Saddam Hussein, though there was never an independent verification of this finding.

The unit was tasked to find plutonium in North Korea in 1994, apparently without notable success.

Remote viewers were also said to have helped find SCUD missiles and secret biological and chemical warfare projects, and to have located and identified the purposes of tunnels and extensive underground facilities.



continues below>>

Then here are some things taken from PROJECT GRILL FLAME established in 1980. Something called "psychoelectronics" that seems mighty interesting. Although I am sceptical about some of this as well.

During NBC‘s "The Other Side" program, [Ed] Dames stated that "The U.S. Government has an electronic device which could implant thoughts in people." ... The program was broadcast during April 1995.

As far back as 1969, [Dr. Jose] Delgado predicted the day would soon arrive when a computer would be able to establish two-way radio communication with the brain -~ an event that first occurred in 1974. Lawrence Pinneo, a neurophysiologist and electronic engineer working for Stanford Research Institute (a leading military contractor), “developed a computer system capable of reading a person‘s mind.

Additional studies, conducted by Dr. Ewen Cameron and funded by the CIA, were directed towards erasing memory and imposing new personalities on unwilling patients. Cameron discovered that electroshock treatment caused amnesia. He set about a program that he called "de-patterning" which had the effect of erasing the memory of selected patients. Further work revealed that subjects could be transformed into a virtual blank machine (Tabula Rasa) and then be re-programmed with a technique which he termed "psychic driving." Such was the bitter public outrage, once his work was revealed (as a result of FOIA searches), that Cameron was forced to retire in disgrace.

From 1965 through to 1970, Defense Advanced Projects Research Agency (DARPA), with up to 70-80% funding provided by the military, set in motion operation PANDORA to study the health and psychological effects of low intensity microwaves with regard to the so-called "Moscow signal." This project appears to have been quite extensive and included (under U.S. Navy funding) studies demonstrating how to induce heart seizures, create leaks in the blood/brain barrier and production of auditory hallucinations. Despite attempts to render the Pandora program invisible to scrutiny, FOIA filings revealed memoranda of Richard Cesaro, Director of DARPA, which confirmed that the program's initial goal was to "discover whether a carefully controlled microwave signal could control the mind." Cesaro urged that these studies be made “for potential weapons applications."

An obscure District of Columbia corporation called Mankind Research Unlimited (MRU) and its wholly owned subsidiary, Systems Consultants Inc. (SCI), operated a number of classified intelligence, government and Pentagon contracts, specializing in, amongst other things: "problem solving in the areas of intelligence electronic warfare, sensor technology and applications."

MRU‘s "capability and experience" is divided into four fields. These include "biophysics -- Biological Effects of Magnetic Fields," "Research in Magneto-fluid Dynamics," "Planetary Electro-Hydro-Dynamics" and "Geo-pathic Efforts on Living Organisms." The latter focuses on the induction of illness by altering the magnetic nature of the geography. Also under research were "Biocybernetics, Psychodynamic Experiments in Telepathy," "Errors in Human Perception," "Biologically Generated Fields," "Metapsychiatry and the Ultraconscious Mind" (believed to refer to experiments in telepathic mind control), "Behavioural Neuropsychiatry," "Analysis and Measurement of Human Subjective States" and "Human Unconscious Behavioural Patterns."

It remains to be said that a great many advances in the realm of electromagnetic field technology and mind control techniques have, apparently, been made during the sixties, seventies and eighties. In particular, veterans of the Vietnam war are still coming forward with bizarre stories, which collectively (if true) point to a leap in knowledge that largely remains hidden behind the thick curtain of security classification

What has this all to do with Rendlesham?

Perhaps nothing at all.

But 1980 was during the Cold War. There were no real battles. It was a propaganda war where information and technology came to the fore. The Space Race, the Arms Race and some very esoteric battles were being waged between the two blocs of East and West. Perhaps the West won because it 'changed' the minds of the opponents in the East. Maybe that technology once tested back in 1980 has been overused in recent times to destabilize unfriendly regimes in the Middle East and created what we know as ISIS?

a reply to: mirageman

Pointmen in Veitnam. An example survival of the fittest in potential AMP possessors.

a reply to: ctj83

Perhaps but some of the witnesses were too young to have served in 'nam.

"You don't know what it was like you weren't there man!"

Although Halt served in Vietnam.

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: Guest101

Clear Intent is long out of print. A quick web search seems to provide sources referenced from LEAG.

I'm working on it but aren't sure whether I can find something.

Another transcript of the Larry Fawcett interview with Bustinza can be found in Barry Greenwood’s casefile:
Thanks to Isaac Koi who published the link on the ATS Forum.

It starts at page 179 of the pdf.

The transcript suddenly ends on page 199, when Bustinza starts describing the craft:

Larry [Fawcett]: Decribe what the machine looked like.
Sgt Busty: That I won’t forget ‘cause I’ve seen, it was the first time I’ve seen one like it. It was circular shaped. It was, well like I told them [Boeche and Colburn, who interviewed Bustinza 5 days earlier], it looked like a pancake.
Larry [Fawcett]: Like a pancake.
Sgt Busty: Like a pancake. It was thick in the middle and it would narrow out toward the edges. I seen lights, all kinds of lights. It would have been a beautiful sight, you.

It seems to end in the middle of a sentence, even with a dot at the end, and two inches of white space left on the page.
So was the second half left out of the transcript, or was it there at all? The transcript in LAEG goes further with a detailed description of the craft, a description that matches will with the drawings and descriptions of Larry Warren.

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: Guest101

On a completely random note I also noticed this quoted from LEAG. It concerns an interview Larry Fawcett made with Greg Battram

So Battram is at least inferring that when he was out there that an exercise was going on? Or is just he thought that was the case?

I think the transcript of Battram's interview is also in Greenwood's file.
Later in the interview Greg tells:

GB: That’s why it was strange that night, because it was the second night we had been out on this alert. I had thought the night before, ‘now I get to see if these guys are really high or if they’re really seeing something. The night it happened it was like: ‘holy #! There must be something in the water.’

So 27/28 Dec was the second night they were out on ‘this alert’, which means 26/27 Dec must have been the first. The events of 25/26 Dec probably prompted an ‘alert’ with additional posting by back office personnel the next night.

I still think the timeline published here makes a lot of sense.

What do you do when you run into an armed team (Greg Battram and his team) that comes running out of the woods because a strange object is sitting there? First collect some light-alls at leasure?
I don’t think so, you immediately go in and try to find out what’s happening. Maybe this was the moment when the object was surrounded, and Larry was still with the team. Greg does remember Larry was one of the men he ran into, and that Englund was there, too.

A little note buried in Barry Greenwood’s case file (see link above) seems to support this theory. It’s on page 352. A radio operator tells Barry that Halt was in trouble because they could not reach him at the start of the incident. So guess who was called instead? Gordon Williams…

Remember what Conrad said to Clarke?

After sundown he [Halt] went back to the forest with his tape recorder, and reported seeing lights that night. This was actually early morning.

So Halt was late ...

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: Guest101

NOTE : another thing that might be a red herring is how Bustinza in that interview mentions helicopters

In the Barry Greenwood's transcript they are a paramedics squadron instead of a para rescue squadron. But the choppers are still in there..

On page 112 of Barry Greenwood’s casefileone of the earliest accounts by Larry Warren can be found. It pretty much matches Bustinza’s story but not Larry’s later accounts.

Larry describes how he met with ‘a Sgt Bustinza’ and two other men in March 1981. They actively encouraged Larry to get the story out as soon as he was out of service.

The meeting, however, has a very interesting twist which is described on page 120:

Larry Warren: ”When I met with Bustinza and these other men I was told possibly counter information. […] people possibly got on them to tell them to give me information to bring out here to discredit the whole story.
They told me about the underground facility and the UFO store down in that facility. Also about a number of other things I probably should never go into. I don’t know if it’s true or if it isn’t true.”

Apparently, the ‘kidnapping and underground’ story came from Bustinza, not from Larry.
You can also see this in the transcript of Larry’s hypnotic regression that follows, at the bottom of page 140:

Pat: I want you to tell me about the ground facility you were taken to, underground. Can you describe it to me?
Larry: No.
Pat: Why?
Larry: There were other guys who went to that.
Pat: Didn’t you go, too?
Larry: No.

a reply to: Guest101

Thanks for delving into the information there G101. I think we certainly haven't been told much about what occurred on the 2nd night (26/27th) and it looks like there has been only a kernel of economic truth from the third night. The gap in Halt's tape until he decides despite leaving lights beaming down on the base that he's packing in and heading back to base seems to be a crucial time when something happened.

As for other news it seems that some of the UFO files (with redactions) that were on hold due to the General Election here in the UK have now been released. Well they have publicly.

UFO Policy - 2004 Apr 27 - 2004 May 07

DEFE 24/2821: UFO reports: C31 air traffic control; low flying UFOs; with redactions

DEFE 24/2822: UFO reports: C3I air traffic control; low flying UFOs; with redactions

DEFE 24/2823: UFO reports: C3I air traffic control; low flying UFOs; with redactions

DEFE 24/3122: Defence policy issues: UFOs; with redactions

DEFE 24/3129: UFOs: administration and general; with redactions

DEFE 24/2879: UFOs: reports; correspondence; with redactions

DEFE 24/2862: UFO reports; with redactions

DEFE 24/3126: Air Defence Ground Environment: UFO reports; with redactions

DEFE 24/3127: Air Defence Ground Environment: UFO reports; with redactions

DEFE 24/3124: Air Defence Ground Environment: UFO reports; with redactions

DEFE 24/3128: Air Defence Ground Environment: UFO reports; with redactions

UFO Policy - 1971 Dec 09 - 1996 Dec 11

UFO Policy - 2000 Jun 13 - 2000 Dec 12

I may have missed one or two. That was what came up in a search on 'UFO' for the last week.

But you need to visit the National Archives Centre in Kew to view them at present.

originally posted by: Jukiodone
You might argue that ALL medical records have the same level of classification as Hitlers- if you are not Hitler or Hitlers' Dr/Legally recognised representative as to a third party, medical records are for all intents and purpose "secret" anyway.

Classic unverifiable claim cranked up with some Hitler sauce - that'll keep em busy.

Reference to Hitler invokes Godwin's law, but you're still discussing it.

Anyway I agree that the lack of supporting documentation for some of these claims is very troubling, and I suspect that my interpretation of Burroughs' source documents is likely to be different from his, if he ever chooses to release such documents.

originally posted by: ctj83
So there seems a possible way to move this on? Are there any references in medical literature to differences in injuries caused by ionising or non-ionising radiation?

I've been told that there are but never seen any proof...

I'm paraphrasing a bit here and going from memory so forgive me if the count is off by one or something, but I remember Dr Green writing that the number of people on the entire planet who had seen the research he was talking about was maybe 8 or so, and he was one of the 8 so there were 7 others, which doesn't include you and me and others in this thread obviously. It's difficult to evaluate what we haven't seen so until he can provide us with copies of that research it's hearsay and subject to Dr. Green's interpretation or misinterpretation, and could also contain errors by the researchers who authored it.

However the same cannot be said of exposure to non-ionizing up to ionizing radiation leading to cataracts, as those reports have been seen by many people world-wide. Here is an on-line reference which also cites other sources:

Cataracts induced by microwave and ionizing radiation.

Microwaves most commonly cause anterior and/or posterior subcapsular lenticular opacities in experimental animals and, as shown in epidemiologic studies and case reports, in human subjects. The formation of cataracts seems to be related directly to the power of the microwave and the duration of exposure.

I think this was first noticed many decades ago when human radar technicians working close to intense microwave sources developed cataracts prematurely.

Microwaves are non-ionizing. The paper and abstract also talks about cataracts from other forms of radiation such as ionizing radiation, from X-rays and Gamma Rays:

Cataracts induced by ionizing radiation (e.g., X-rays and gamma rays) usually are observed in the posterior region of the lens, often in the form of a posterior subcapsular cataract. Increasing the dose of ionizing radiation causes increasing opacification of the lens, which appears after a decreasing latency period. Like cataract formation by microwaves, cataractogenesis induced by ionizing radiation is associated with damage to the lens cell membrane.

So whether one is exposed to ionizing radiation such as X-rays or Gamma rays, or non-ionizing radiation such as microwaves, it appears that cataracts can and have formed in animal and human subjects. I am not saying this precludes that other effects can't be observed, just that I would expect a likelihood of seeing cataracts plus some other symptom in people with high levels of radiation exposure since the eyes seem particularly susceptible to radiation, and they are close to the surface of the body and easily accessible. The heart is not so easily accessible, and for someone to claim radiation damage to the heart requires explaining the mechanism by which the radiation penetrated to the deeper tissues.

Have you ever tried to cook a turkey in a microwave? I have, and the microwaves don't seem to heat up the inner tissues directly. The way it cooks is they heat up the outer tissues, and then the heat gradually makes its way inward to cook the inner tissues, but it's not the microwaves directly cooking the inner tissues. You can try this experiment at home and test different depths of tissue with a meat thermometer as the turkey cooks to verify this. Or if you don't want to do the experiment at home, you can take the word of this harvard website which explains the relationship of EM radiation penetration depth with frequency:

people.seas.harvard.edu...

At higher frequencies, fields penetrate much less than at lower frequencies. For example, at 2.45 GHz (microwave oven frequency), penetration depth in tissue is about 2.0 cm, while at 10 GHz, it is about 0.4 cm[2]. At higher frequencies, any heating that occurs is primarily surface heating. Penetration depth for fat and bone is nearly five times greater than for higher-water-content tissues. (See table in reference 1, p. 340 for penetration depth for different tissues.)

So what he is saying is that the heating effects of electromagnetic radiation get shallower and shallower as you go from the 2 cm depth of cooking a turkey in a microwave at 2.45 GHz, to much shallower depths at higher frequencies so by the time you get to Terahertz frequencies any heating effect is a surface phenomenon, with no real depth. Of course this is sufficient to cause cataracts in the eyes but it does pose problems for the physics of how the terahertz radiation is causing heart damage. Even if you're one of the 7 other people in the world to see the research Green talks about, the research could be flawed and the author could be a medical doctor with insufficient knowledge of the physics of EM to understand the frequency versus penetration phenomenon.

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: ctj83

Uri Geller was one of the first proposed people in the 'Anomalous Mental Phenomena' group (AMP). He had an early encounter with a UAP as a child.

This was a nested quote. The value of associating someone with a UAP when you don't even know what the UAP was seems highly questionable.

There are many people who think Uri Geller is nothing but a very clever conjuror. James Randi has rumbled him and others too. I think the guy is brilliant as an entertainer and in the field of positive thinking. But does he have secret powers?

You didn't show the powers he displayed on the Johnny Carson show (Uri Geller segment starts at 2 minutes).



Why does Geller say "This scares me" when Carson shows him a table of items that Gellar usually does his psychic tricks with, spoons and watches, etc? James Randi knows, because they aren't Geller's own props and a magician needs their own props, not those provided by someone else.

(Why continue for 20+ years if it was never useful?)......

Randi gave an example to show how you can never prove psi isn't real. His example is an experiment to test the hypothesis that horses can fly. You want to give the horse some incentive to fly so you take it to the top of a skyscraper, push it off, and note whether the hose can fly or not. You end up with horse meat ready to wash and cook on the sidewalk, and say that trial #1 did not support the hypothesis that horses can fly.

So you repeat the experiment with horse #2, and not surprisingly to some people, get the same result. Now let's say after 20 trials, none of the horses flew in the experiment, does this prove that horses can't fly? No, because all you've shown is that those 20 horses didn't fly in the experiment. Maybe one of them really could fly but like Uri Geller on the Johnny Carson show just feel up to it at the time of the experiment.

But you haven't proven that the other million plus horses you didn't test can't fly, so do you see where this is heading? No matter how many horses you test you've never proven that one of the remaining horses somewhere can't fly, until you've tested every horse and made the species extinct, which of course the SPCA isn't going to let happen so you'll never know. As Randi points out testing for psychic powers or psi is much the same, you can never prove that nobody nowhere has them because you haven't tested everyone in every circumstance yet. Furthermore,the way a lot of psi experiments are designed allow for a lot more bias and questionable interpretation than the horse flying experiments, which mean false positives due to poor experimental procedure can provide encouragement to continue.

originally posted by: mirageman
This came from the book "Phenomena" by Annie Jacobsen. Annie can be heard talking about this and more on John Burroughs' radio show of almost the same name. Download link :

National Security Investigative Journalist - Annie Jacobson

At 14:40 She mentions a British professor of mathematics, Former president of the royal statistical society of the UK, explaining that coincidences happen, people who don't understand that are according to Annie Jacobson's interpretation "intellectually inferior". Yet she was struck by the coincidence and seems to want to wear this "intellectually inferior" label like a badge of honor, though she doesn't seem so intellectually inferior to me, being a bestselling author. She knows her target audience and her job is to sell books so as long as the books sell she's successful. But the professor was right, which anybody should be able to figure out. Let's say that the chances of something happening by coincidence are so small to a single person, it is only a one-in-a-million chance of it happening during any given year. So if that happens it seems like the chances of it being a coincidence are low, right?

True, but there are 7 billion people on the planet, so there will be 7000 of these events a year! 7000! If she scour the globe for anything that seemed like a beyond coincidence event, to me it would be amazing if she couldn't find a few more hundred out of the 7000 "one in a million" coincidences that statistics assure us occurred (per the mathematician's point).

But here's the bottom line, Annie is asked if any of the psi research was ever confirmed, and she says no. The research still goes on, and in James Randi's example it's like more horses being thrown off building to see if they can fly. You can never prove no horses anywhere can't fly by doing that, only the specific horses you tested, so will there ever be any end to experiments? Probably not.

Anyway, Linda Howe mentioned the Condign report having an appendix F relating to Rendlesham. I downloaded the full Condign report from the national archives, 460 pages and haven't found the appendix F she refers to, has anybody seen it?

How says in the 460 page report, appendix F, difficult to find but available on earthfiles, mentions "mental effects",
"as in the Rendlesham Incident" .

All I saw on Earthfiles was a confusing mess, and the only appendix F I see in the Condign report is a document filename uap_vol1_annex_dtof.pdf with a date 9th August 1952 so it obviously has no relevance to Rendlesham in 1980. Here is the National Archives site I started with to download all the Condign report pdfs:

www.mod.uk... .htm

By the way as IsaacKoi mentions that report is "severely flawed".

www.abovetopsecret.com...

The Condign Report appears to have been compiled by a single individual:

(a) without involving any consultation with scientists in the relevant fields, and

(b) without involving any consultation with ufologists to determine what previous consideration of the relevant theories had occurred (including to discover if any reasons had been advanced for rejecting the relevant theory or whether there was any data inconsistent with it).

These factors are at the core of the most significant problems with this severely flawed report.

Anyway if someone can help me find the appendix F Linda Howe mentions with reference to Rendlesham, I'd appreciate it, unless she's got her wires crossed.

originally posted by: mirageman

As for other news it seems that some of the UFO files (with redactions) that were on hold due to the General Election here in the UK have now been released. Well they have publicly.

I may have missed one or two. That was what came up in a search on 'UFO' for the last week.

But you need to visit the National Archives Centre in Kew to view them at present.

Thanks, but it's inconvenient for much of the global audience to do that.

Does the national archives normally digitize the records and make them available for download after a period of time?

Or does some citizen have to go to Kew, copy the documents, then scan the copies and post those, or is it even legal to do that?

originally posted by: mirageman
The gap in Halt's tape until he decides despite leaving lights beaming down on the base that he's packing in and heading back to base seems to be a crucial time when something happened.

Yes, the Halt tape seems to have three issues:
o Why is the ‘silent explosion’ mentioned in his memo not on the tape?
o Why the odd ‘jump’ after they were looking at ‘the thing’ above the farmer’s field?
o Why the sudden anti-climax at the end, where they simply return to the base while a light is hovering above Woodbridge base?

The funny thing is that these three issues can all be solved by transferring just one section of the recording to the end.

It is the section in between:

LT COLONEL HALT: We just bumped into the first night bird we’ve seen.
[….]
LT COLONEL HALT: Bit like a pupil of an eye lookin' at you, winking. And the flash is so bright to the star scope, that err... it almost burns your eye [this would be the new end of the tape]

If you transfer this piece to the end, the recording is still consistent but on their way back they ‘bump into the first night bird’ they’ve seen.
‘The first night bird’ is a term Halt uses to refer to the strange red light that was roaming through the forest earlier.
The tape ends when ‘the thing’ is above the farmer’s field.