The Real Fallen Angel!

reply to post by Ploutonas


LOL Did the same exercise with my language, reading the alfabet as syllables and words, but the result was so bizarre and outrageaous that I honestly don't dare to post a translation here on ATS, fearing it would break quite a few §'s in the terms and have me passport nulled and men in black fighting the whitecoats over me outside my appartment. But it was quite fun, I must admit. Made my day. Really!

Text What makes one religion the absolute truth and the rest a pack of blasphemous lies? Who gets to decide? Who can provide the evidence?

reply to post by Chipkin9


You do. That's your job as a person. You get to nit pick and choose anything you want to. No one is going to make you change your mind. You already have your mind set on what you want to believe. The so called bible is nothing but ancient manuscripts scattered all over creation and collected into a book form. Just other people's opinions or revelations.

What is interesting to me is that all of the different people from different places and different times kind of agree with one another on a lot of things. I just sort it out in my mind and cherry pick what I want to believe. Everybody does that. Read the following that I cherry picked. Doesn't mean that I am right to you but it does mean that I am right to me. That is for now.
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Reading the 1611 KJV bible I read the following’

Revelation 12:7-9
(7) - And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, (8) - And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. (9) - And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Ezekiel 28:13-17
(13) - Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. (14) -Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. (15) -Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. (16) -By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. (17) -Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Isaiah 14:12 -15
(12)-How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! (13) For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: (14) -I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. (15) Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
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2nd Peter 2:4- For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
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All five men agree with the premise of celestial entities that have sinned and I assume that these five accounts refer to the same happening.

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Job 1: 6, 7
(6) Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. (7) And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

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Note that Job says that Satan was called forth to appear before God and that Satan said that he was walking up and down and to and forth in the earth. Not on the earth or around the earth or above the earth as some suppose. Would that agree with both Peter and Isaiah as they state that Lucifer (Satan) and his angels are cast into hell till the final day of this judgment?

Job is considered the oldest of the manuscripts of the Hebrew bible and although his book is not dated, Job is estimated (by Jewish Scholars) to have existed 600 to 700 years after the flood of Noah. This would put his life at about 1500 to 1400 BCE. Would this suggest that Satan existed in the minds of the entire Hebrew bible characters?
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To better understand let’s examine this in this manner. 2nd Peter tells me that the angels who had sinned and warred in heaven were cast down into this earth and in the realm which we call hell. I understand this to mean that they are restricted from using the surface of this earth or the atmosphere above this earth but that they are imprisoned in the earth. Now Peter does not name Lucifer specifically but does say the word ‘angels’ as referring to the entire group. I would assume that this includes Lucifer.

Scriptures tell us that Lucifer is mentioned only once in the OT and NT. Could it be that Lucifer is still bound in hell just as Jude and Peter tells us? But then how could this Lucifer tempt Jesus in the NT if he is in hell? We can understand how he afflicted Job because the book of Job explains that Satan was called forth to afflict him. But was the Satan which was called forth from the earth to buffet Job the same Lucifer who was cast into hell? Can it be the Lucifer who is bound in hell this very day? Are there more than one Lucifer’s? The bible does not say that Lucifer tempted Jesus. The bible says that Satan tempted Jesus. But isn’t Lucifer the same as Satan?

Could the problem be with our understanding of just who and what Satan is? Could it be that there are many Satan’s? Could it be that Lucifer is but a personage who is a Satan? Could it be that the reason Lucifer is not mentioned again is because he is one of many spirits which embraced evil? In other words Lucifer was a specific entity of celestial substance who was the arch angel with twelve wings compared to all others who had six wings. This Lucifer is not mentioned as Lucifer after he was cast out of the celestial realm. He was numbered as one of the many Satan’s. Lucifer is not the progenitor of sin. God is the progenitor of sin and isn’t sin a spirit of force and not an entity such as an angel? It is the entity that embraces sin and is the practitioner of sin but not the progenitor of sin.
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Let’s take a look at Islam and their explanation of Satan.
The Muslim religion is a branch of Judaic and Christian thought in many ways. Their religion explains that they have two terms in explaining our Satan. Their first and foremost entity is that of Iblis. Iblis is to the Muslim as Lucifer is to the Christian. Then the Muslims have Shaitan who is any entity that rebels against their God. In their way of thinking they have only one Iblis who is a Shaitan but they have many Shaitan’s.

continued

reply to post by Seede


continued from above ---------------

Now let us apply that to Lucifer. Lucifer is a created entity (Angel). This angel Lucifer is a Satan. This would mean that we have but one Lucifer but could have several Satan’s. The meaning of Satan is that Satan is any entity who rebels against God. In other words this would explain that a Satan tempted Jesus but Lucifer is still bound in hell with his cohorts. Jesus was tempted by a Satan but the bible does not name the entity who was that Satan. Most Christians automatically assume that it was Lucifer but then after realizing that Lucifer is in hell most will become confused. The same applies to demons. Most Christians are taught that demons are fallen angels when in fact they are not angels at all.
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So then what is a Satan? A Satan is a spirit of which we have no idea of its composition. All we are taught is that evil is a creation of God (Isaiah 45:7). The angel named Lucifer did not invent evil. Evil was created in the celestial realm by the Creator and is a spirit of disobedience. Lucifer embraced this spirit of evil but was not the progenitor of evil. God did not create sin (evil) in malice. He created evil as knowledge. To show us good God must present bad. You cannot have righteousness without unrighteousness. Otherwise you would not have knowledge. Hot and cold is another opposite which is also knowledge. Knowledge embraces wisdom and without knowledge you can not have wisdom. This is the only reason that God created evil as a teaching tool.
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Then who are the demons who Jesus fought throughout the NT? If Lucifer and his cohorts are bound in hell who then are the demon’s who afflict the world today? Demons are devils or Satan’s. A demon is a devil who are the offspring of the fallen angels who are Satan’s. The demons that Jesus fought are the band of 200 angel’s offspring who came to this earth in the days of Enosh (not Enoch) and took human women as wives.

R.H. Charlesworth -- Book 1, “The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha” Book 1, - 15: 8-12 explains this in the following manner.

“(8) But now the giants who are born from the (union of) the spirits and the flesh shall be called evil spirits upon the earth, because their dwelling shall be upon the earth and inside the earth. (9) Evil spirits have come out of their bodies. Because from the day that they were created from the holy ones they became the Watchers; their first origin is the spiritual foundation. They will become evil upon the earth and shall be called evil spirits. (10) The dwelling of the spiritual beings of heaven is heaven; but the dwelling of the spirits of the earth, which are born upon the earth, is in the earth. (11) The spirits of the giants oppress each other, they will corrupt, fall, be excited, and fall upon the earth, and cause sorrow. They eat no food, nor become thirsty, nor find obstacles. (12) And these spirits shall rise up against the children of the people and against the women, because they have proceeded forth from them.”

So if Lucifer and his host are in hell then the two hundred angels who took wives could be the Satan’s while their offspring of giants could be the demons of today.

Why would God present this to His creation? Because knowledge also brings love and hate and God survives on love. Love is the total manifestation in His purpose of creation. Without love you cannot understand wisdom. Lucifer is a teaching tool to show the creation. Therefore any entity which embraces hate (evil) is opposite of the Creator’s perfect will. There is a perfect will and a permissive will.

Not saying that I am right but only what I have nit picked from all sorts of reading.

Chipkin9

To teach the word of God? Or to teach a fallen
angel a lesson? (Or perhaps both for redemption?)

It would be an interesting lesson for some... To allow them to fall away from the Divine to experience their own wills in an existence where free will is permitted. May even make some more appreciative if allowed back home to the Heavens, Sky, Beyond or Cosmos depending on perceptive awareness level.

The correlation between The SON LORD JESUS CHRIST and DAWN MORNING LUXZAVA 1 feels some of & off? EA*RTH already know the TRUTH, of who the representation Id of two or less Energies. Names can be changed or forgotten over time, if possible the observation of the deeds tends to reflect who they always are and will be...

NAMASTE*******

Ophiuchus 13
It would be an interesting lesson for some... To allow them to fall away from the Divine to experience their own wills in an existence where free will is permitted.

And that is the very human condition in a box, don't you think?

reply to post by Utnapisjtim


That was really funny u said... Well, the true ancient greek are very very ancient, before Greece called Greece and Athenians as Athenians, (those at least who are real Greeks in the genre) come from the race of Pelasgians. Before Atlantis, it was Pelasgia race and after the cataclysmic event, Defkalionas who survived with the same way as NOAH, (he saw god that he asked him to make a boat) He made lots of kids and one of them was Ellin (thats why we are today Ellines)

Anyway, they said that the real ancient language of ours, is the language of the Gods. But be careful, Gods in ancient greece means something different from what jews call Gods today.

In our terms, we are all Gods, Gods means those who run fast, so probably Gods are the aliens, ancient spaceships. Maybe thats why many spaceships today, some of them have greek letters on them. But in our terms, we can all be gods.

We are all gods, but there is only one GOD above us, who is everywhere and everything around us, all the time and at the same time, and that is Zeus, Zeus name is not his real name, his true name cannot be spelled. We call him Zeus because his name means " the one who unites everything in the global universe" is the global organism, (means together, to unite). And his number is 7. So its like, Universe, the whole global universe, is the body of Zeus and we are the cells inside the body of Zeus... Even the cancerous ones. Those we call, bad races, rebels alliances, dragonians, etc.

And thats how global organism works, if there is lots of cancer in one spot, the body tempts to heal it self, by sending healthy cells with strong defences. And thats the mission of the bad forces, to destroy the body of zeus, to destroy the universe. I hope i was very clear to make you understand what is the big picture and whats going on.

When we say that Zeus forces will return, we dont mean that Zeus is 1 person that will come and punish them. Zeus forces could be you, the healthy cells of his body. So those who think that we greeks being polytheists, thats not true, we have only one God, the others are his forces and the cancer. And thats our mission, to call others / to report them, to inform the body that here is cancer, send forces to heal it. And after the specific spot is healed, to unite again with the rest of the body.

reply to post by Chipkin9


Great article, some of those thoughts have gone through my mind.

Some of my experiences and things I have seen make me a believer.

I believe Jesus Christ and God are one.

This is a very interesting subject.
Of course you're referring to Bible references of the true fallen angel, but that doesn't account for fallen angels across the board.
Te Qur'an says that Iblis is the fallen angel.
The bible says lucifer.

Maybe many others have fallen as examples, but never been part of any scripture.
eg David Koresh claimed to be a child of God, but also lead people astray on his journey. Could he be another example of a fallen angel who fell out with the creator over differences? It could be argued as a theory.

Now like I say you are mainly referring I the Bible so let's stick to that topic.
Now most Christians would say when we die, it's Gods decision, and therefore they(genderless deity, not plural) decide when the time is right.
So when Jesus was said to have raised Lazarus from the dead, is that not disobeying a decision of God? It would seem so.

Also the Commandments state, Thou Shalt Not Worship False Gods(Idols) depending on translation.
Again would it not then be a sin to worship Jesus as The Lord, especially since never do we hear that there is a God Incarnate?
Add to that the Christian claim to be accepted by God, we must accept Jesus?
Does this mean that any born before Jesus who had never heard of him are unaccepted, despite God being known prior to Jesus' birth?

I don't have a problem with any religion, people can believe whatever they like and should never be vilified, or lambasted by the non-believers & vice-versa... but there are a few things that just do not make sense when taking everything into account!

As for Jesus actually being Lucifer, that's probably not the case. Different backstories and agendas would point to this.
But that doesn't mean Jesus was not another fallen angel of a different era.

ps Having read the parable, I truly believe Jesus ate the loaves & fishes, and hence that's why, straight after, he went into hiding from the crowd.
If he had fed them all I doubt they'd have any reason or motive to hunt him down.

I think the "miracles" of Jesus are the hardest things to believe all throughout the scriptures.

reply to post by CharlieSpeirs


The question boils down to are the gods and angels discribed in ancient books all human? Is the Vatican an elevated part of Earth piercing into the heavens? What about the secret societies, high court judges, kings and philosophers, are they the angels and demons of these rather archaic patriarchal systems of heaven and hell, who's in which level of heaven or hell and who threw down whom, and in which story and at what point in time?

reply to post by Utnapisjtim


From a sceptics point of view I see exactly what you mean.

Personally speaking as I said I believe there is one creator, no imitations nor incarnate version.
So from my POV the angels would be of a different plain/realm with only high importance causing involvement/interference in our realm.

As for the fallen, I theorise that their soul/spirit is pegged down a level to stop unwanted interference/influence instead left to walk I our realm as a physical presence to set an example to others.
Now in our physical state it main not seem obvious nor relevant, however on a higher plain the message would be received.

Of course others will have different opinions & theories on this so it is just speculation.
But from personal experience this makes the most sense to me.

Peace.

CharlieSpeirs
reply to post by Utnapisjtim

 

From a sceptics point of view I see exactly what you mean.

Personally speaking as I said I believe there is one creator, no imitations nor incarnate version.
So from my POV the angels would be of a different plain/realm with only high importance causing involvement/interference in our realm.

As for the fallen, I theorise that their soul/spirit is pegged down a level to stop unwanted interference/influence instead left to walk I our realm as a physical presence to set an example to others.
Now in our physical state it main not seem obvious nor relevant, however on a higher plain the message would be received.

Of course others will have different opinions & theories on this so it is just speculation.
But from personal experience this makes the most sense to me.

Peace.

Sounds about right. How Ikaros fell on wax wings, and how the tone in Demokles muted into grinding teeth-- it takes more than a fancy dress to be a king and more than desire to be a god. The way I see it, it's much like you, that God is One, I see the system of parallel multiverses as an expression of God's conciousness or ego. In my opinion we are but fungi on a sub-atomic particle forced into existence as an idea or "a bright moment" like they say in AA The stars in the sky are like temporary pixles in a CT caput image on the Godhead so to speak. We are truely nobody, and this universe is truely nothing-- if not for God's relaxing mind.

reply to post by Utnapisjtim


Couldn't agree more to be fair.

& I did raise a smile reading that too.

Excellent way to put a point across, it was a somewhat philosophical narrative.

Peace.

CharlieSpeirs
reply to post by Utnapisjtim

 

it was a somewhat philosophical narrative.

"Philosophers must become kings or those now called kings must genuinely and adequately philosophize" (Plato, The Republic, 5.473d). Perhaps there is some hope left in Pandora's jar

BTW, thanks for the nice words

This thread reminds me of someone else.....lolololol

God created earth, pain is a learning. (Expulsion from paradise) satan owns earth.
God said earth is foot stool to Him.

Chipkin9
I've had these thoughts concerning the christian bible
for some time, specifically the new testament where Jesus
enters the scene.

I am writing this as an agnostic, but with the
supposition that the bible is written as fact
and is true (For arguments sake).

So we all know of the ambiguity contained within the passages of the bible, where both Jesus and Lucifer are referred to as the "Morning Star".

Ok, holy cow, this is highly intriguing.

Can I ask a favor? To me, the idea of both Lucifer and Jesus being referred to as the "Morning Star" is amazingly interesting. Could you possibly point me to WHERE in the bible it says this?

I myself am not religious....but I am fascinated with the bible....

Color me piqued....