The tree of what knowledge?

The basic things every human need to understand:

1. No human can be God, and never been. There is NO human Creator.

2. God does not take birth in any species of animal or human as God is not bound to 'karma'. Only souls take birth as souls are bound to 'karma'.

3. Each soul is responsible for its actions. What you do is actually done by your soul, your body only obeys the commands, including your mind that is part of your body. The alive part of you is your soul. The body is made of elements that form chemicals which comprise cells of your body. The body is perishable. The soul is NOT perishable.

4. Each soul is different from others. There is no group think. Each soul takes its decisions independent of all others and is responsible for its actions. God has given all faculties to humans for independent action. If a human decides to follow a bad example or puts himself/heself in bad company, that is entirely that soul's fault.

5. God is NOT responsible for action of any soul. God does not ask any soul to behave or act in a certain way. God's laws are communicated through evolved humans from time to time, and at the beginning of Creation. However God does not force any human to obey those laws.

reply to post by GargIndia


You seem to be pretty sure about yourself.

Please explain how you know for sure ?

reply to post by Sinter Klaas


I am sure of the truth as told by evolved humans over ages, and have felt that in my heart.

You will do better to heed the advice. Other options are disease and sorrow.

reply to post by GargIndia

You are terribly misguided.

The first thing you need to do is embrace vegetarianism and shun alcohol and drugs completely. You need detox therapy as well.

You have lost your capacity to reason and understand.

Your idea of God will take you straight to hell.

Really ? Why is that ?

Your judgment isn't really of any concern on the matter, and you probably know for sure that you're right .
I'm pretty sure about the reasons I have to do what I do... While you seem to think that I use drugs and drink and lost my way. You even tell me to detox ?

I don't really know what to say about that... Thank you for caring, I guess...

Anyway...

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I will not give up meat and you've already assumed to much that isn't the case.

For your information. I've been speculating in all my post, and even if I would belief anything I've posted to be true, I'm always learning new things that make me change my mind or maybe reevaluate myself all together.

Please don't be so judgmental towards others ? It's a little insulting.

Edit to say that I read your first reply to me after the last one.

reply to post by Sinter Klaas


I hope you see the hollowness of your arguments.

You are making decisions for yourself, nobody else.

As government makes laws but a citizen may decide not to follow, similarly humans individually decide to obey God's laws.

Disobedience always results in punishment, and God's punishment is always certain. No king or powerful in human society can escape God's punishment.

A person must weigh carefully his/her statements as misleading others is punishable too.

God's wrath comes in the form of financial misery, disease, humiliation, and ultimately birth in lower form of life of animals that bear pain from birth till death.

reply to post by GargIndia


I'm sorry

My argument doesn't really matter in my opinion.

You assume I drink and use other substances, witch I don't.

If I did, I might understand your reply.

It's not that I'm to stubborn to take any advice... It's just that you give yours based on assumptions.
That's my only issue...

I'm not trying to mislead anyone. I'm simply charing some thoughts. I', not saying they're true, and I do not want to make anyone think they are more then just thoughts.

No one will be punished for making mistakes. Not you,me or Obama for that matter...

This is not about my posts.... It's about your reply to it.
I'm happy to read another reply from you, where you tell me what you think is wrong/bad about them.
Just don't add your assumptions about me in it.

Is that to much to ask ?

reply to post by Sinter Klaas


I apologize to you and I hope you take my arguments for its substance.

Our problem (including me) is this we expect a lot from others while not applying the same yardstick to self.

This is the kind of dishonesty that is killing mankind.

A strong human is who understands morals and applies to his/her own life. There is no meaning of saying anything if it is meant for others only.

'Ego' is a very tricky thing. Ego is the reason humans fail in understanding real knowledge. Though ego is also created by God as part of creation of a human. It is what gives the perception of 'self' or 'me'. But this is also what prevents a human from understanding 'we'.

reply to post by GargIndia

I apologize to you and I hope you take my arguments for its substance.

Our problem (including me) is this we expect a lot from others while not applying the same yardstick to self.



A strong human is who understands morals and applies to his/her own life. There is no meaning of saying anything if it is meant for others only.

Apology accepted.

Luckily I've been screwing up a lot. I don't expect anything much anymore. In my experience you need to do it yourself, and then you might end up with people willing to help or assist.

The only rule I try to live by is, don't do to others, what you don't want others to do to you.

People don't give a damn about others unfortunately, but I don't have to answer for others.
I can only do things my way, and when I do care or help or assist, and I am given anything in return, I'm happy about it.
It means that people do know "we" because we helped each other out. We worked together.
Hardly anything will be done without some kind of self rewarding need though. Yet we all need something. right ?

I don't understand what you mean with this ?
There is no meaning of saying anything if it is meant for others only.

Things I say are meant to cause others to think or response... Nothing I say is meant for others to be taken as a command or something they need to do or follow.

On topic :

Just like I was speculating about the future of mankind, after we learned right from wrong and after we might have evolved into a peaceful being with a newfound understanding of our place in nature.

If we might someday become what we can be, with all our virtues, and our godlike possibilities.

I'm not saying this will happen or is even possible at all. I do remember some texts from genesis where there is written that when we work together as one, we can make our dreams come true.
That first time we were arrogant and our reasons were not righteous or something. All people ended up talking another language...

That time when mankind will unite and be as one, and rise to unimagined places, is a possibility that comes straight from a bible book. If it will ever be, and more importantly... If our species will unite with a better set of values and reasons then in the ancient past, when they wanted to build a tower to enter the heavens, wasn't it ?
That would be spectacular. Don't you think ?

I get even more exited by new scientific possibilities, from the latest technological equipment, used to study the human genome, and the differences of all our ancestors where we found remains from, like Neanderthal for example...
Our genetic material is identified, and it is showing us step by step where and when our gene pool was different, and where and when new genetic diversities developed, and mixed among other varieties, added to our genome...when it got isolated from us and when it ends up back with us along with new mutations... With all the benefits that a highly variated genetic gene pool... Like immunity for disease and infections, adaptations that helped us survive and so on...

Anyway... The evidence show us that when the first humans were walking around they started out as one species before they got isolated and evolved separated from the original population.

Without making it way to complex... Our species, ( without assuming we are just the result of evolution, or that we are created by God )
We started out as one a time where all had to be able to understand each other, we got scattered around the globe, developed new languages and cultural diversity where a point existed when the original population was reunited with these new and changed people after that they again spread the globe reunited at some point at places around the world, and they spread again...

We... Mankind living today is the result of all these migrations, adaptations, mutations creating the genetic differences into a multiple hominid species walking around for millennium until all species of human ended up back in our human genome.

Two gorilla's born on the same mountain show a bigger diversity then the diversity within our entire human species genetically speaking.

Personal conclusion:

Not only does our genetic evidence show that our kind got spread and developed different languages and cultures then others, like is written in the genesis story.
It also tells us that our current idea of how long people walked the Earth is way off.
What might explain some ancient stories about floods and giants... some good advice...
Because societies have been around before, and been destroyed too. The number of it will forever be a mystery, but we are sure about at least one. Since there has to be one that was used for u number of stories, passed on throughout time...

If you are still reading...

I must add that most I wrote are nothing more then speculations and assumptions from just a few things.

Ancient stories written down in religious scriptures. Actual evidence new studies gave us.

Unlike sticking to a bundle of books we call the Bible. I see our history unraveling into possibilities and new found facts are remarkably compatible with ancient stories, still around today.

Thinking about what might be won't get me in hell. It might cause me to be disappointed to learn I'm wrong, or even if God will show me how wrong I can possibly be...

Why would it be impossible to forgive thinking about the unknown ?

The humanity will be one when "we" part becomes the norm - that is each person acts in the interests of common good, including the natural world.

Some people have helped you, and you have helped some people; but the big picture of this world is still filled with selfish humans.

The history only provides pointers. The answers are usually not easy to find. This is the reason a seeker looks for a teacher - a teacher who can provide the answers.

I am told by me teacher that God also acts as a teacher and provides guidance through inner visions. However that happens to only "very pure" souls. Normal humans needs a human teacher for guidance.

I wish happiness for you. You indeed have a kind heart and the mind of a seeker. I hope you make progress in your quest.

reply to post by GargIndia


Thank you very much.

You're right to many people are only thinking about themselves, yet a better world starts with you...
I guess there isn't much more any individual can do.

All the best for you to of course.

I was reading the Forgotten Books of Adam and Eve. I think they are part of the dead sea scrolls. I found it very interesting that in Book 1, it says that after they sinned, God made them a fleshly body. Before that they were spirit. It also says that once they were in the flesh body, God gave them a giant fig to eat, and their bodies had a hard time adjusting to physical food.
So, if there is any substance to these books, the fruit they ate in the garden, couldn't have been physical fruit. Because, the first physical food they ate was that giant fig.

You can find the Forgotten Books of Adam and Eve at www.sacred-texts.com

They tell an incredible story. I was raised very religious, and for years wondered "Where did Cain get his wife?" well, according to these books he had a twin sister and he married her. And that the fight with Able was over his sister. Adam and Eve also killed themselves 3 times, and God kept bringing them back to life.

Pretty interesting read.

Im thinking the tree of knowledge was a super computer, (something like the akashic records) in a laboratory. The experiment (Adam and Eve) were told not to play with it. lol

reply to post by misskat1


There are a lot of stories out there. The problem is which ones you believe?

I can tell you that our ancestors were as capable of writing fiction as today's writers.

Every generation of humans before us had politics and kings, and 'religion' has been invented for political purposes mostly.

The dissatisfaction with society and kings drives saints ('tapsvi') to solitude in forests and other deserted places.

The story of Adam and Eve is a false story. You may believe it if you wish but it does not help you in spiritual journey.

In my country, a lot of Sanskrit and other language 'religious' literature falls in the category of 'fiction'.

Why fictional stories are introduced into a religion - because people readily believe such stories. So it suits the vain and the powerful.

reply to post by GargIndia


At one time, I also believed the 66 books allowed into the cannon of scripture was the beginning and ending of all wisdom, knowledge, and understanding. However, for truth to be true, everything has to fit, archeology discoveries, geologic timetables, all of it has to fit to be true.

On my personal journey, I have learned not to trust any mans interpretation of scripture. You need no man teach you, the holy spirit will lead and guide you into all truth. The truth for me, is that the 'men' who decided which books should be in the bible, had motives of controlling the people. Not to enlighten them, just to control them. There are over 20 books quoted in the bible that are not in the bible. If Jesus and his followers knew these scriptures well enough to quote them, then why would we limit ourselves to the few allowed into scripture? Men decided what we would be allowed to know. God does not fit in a box, you can not limit the presence of the Spirit to only fit what is acceptable under the cannon of scripture. And if you trust men to decide for you what you are allowed to know, then you have lost the battle already.

Its time to get past the milk of the word and get on to some meat. If you limit yourself to only believe in the 66 books allowed in the bible, you will waste away in your spirit. A grown person can not survive on milk alone. I am not targeting you with that statement, nor am I judging you for only drinking the milk of the word. I do not know you therefore I can not judge your spiritual journey, nor would I if I did know you. That is between you and whatever higher power you put your personal trust in.

The forgotten books of Adam and Eve in no way negate the book of Genesis, it completes the story. Just as the book of Enoch which is in my opinion one of the most important, yet left out. It doesn't negate the 66 books either, it completes the story.

People can argue all day, but the bottom line is LOVE. Don't put your trust in the men who decided what you should be allowed to know. Take up the sword of the Spirit (the word of God) and ask for all the truth to be revealed to you. I am not saying I know all truth, I learn things and evolve with the knowledge given to me. Applying the knowledge, turns into wisdom and understanding.

Remember, most likely Jesus and his cousin John the Baptist were Essenes. It was the Essenes that believed these scriptures were so important that they gave their lives to copy and hide them, for future generations. Today we call them the dead sea scrolls. What the Essenes believed and how they lived, should be an echo in our own lives.

I can see from previous posts, that you lean toward wanting to argue your faith, which is fine. But I have evolved way past arguing over scripture. A loving debate is welcome. But, I have spent the most part of my 55 years searching for knowledge, wisdom and understanding. You are not going to change my mind. And I have no need to change yours. Walk in the light as you see the light. Let your actions in your daily life be filled with love.
The scriptures say, pure religion is helping the widow and orphan. Loving each other is the only true religion.

I should add that I am a vegetarian, don't drink, do drugs, and I have been detoxed. I do not seek vanity or power. These things are only on the physical level. They do not lead you to a greater spiritual understanding of the universal energy we have named God. As a person walks in the Spirit, behaviors and emotions that the unseen feed upon, will leave our physical bodies. We will change, and grow from glory to glory.
I walk in the light as I see the light, and I don't judge others. If any of my statements have conjured emotions within you that are not of the "fruit of the spirit" then I would take the time to examine my heart, and, ask to be purged of a judgmental attitude, or the vanity of thinking you have all the answers. No one has all the answers. All true seekers have the same destination. But, none have the same path.

misskat1
I was reading the Forgotten Books of Adam and Eve. I think they are part of the dead sea scrolls. I found it very interesting that in Book 1, it says that after they sinned, God made them a fleshly body. Before that they were spirit. It also says that once they were in the flesh body, God gave them a giant fig to eat, and their bodies had a hard time adjusting to physical food.
So, if there is any substance to these books, the fruit they ate in the garden, couldn't have been physical fruit. Because, the first physical food they ate was that giant fig.

There is nothing about "spiritual bodies" in the Genesis account, and they don't fit into the story of the Creation.
The Biblical version of the story is the one that I'm interpreting.

You like those "extra" books because they give you information you don't find in Genesis and give you a version of the story which you prefer to the Genesis version.
But it should occur to you that they were written for that purpose, to give the readers what they wanted to read, which makes them secondary and unauthoritative.
A scripture which has been re-designed to give readers the things they think OUGHT to be there has as little value as a guide as a map where the features have been re-arranged to meet the preferences of the people using it.

reply to post by DISRAELI


Curious, did you read the Forgotten Books? Or are you maintaining your position, because you have decided the small amount of information contained in Genesis is all there is to the story?

Are you not curious about their life outside the garden? Or about the lessons they learned? I simply can not settle for only 1/2 the truth or 1/2 the story. If walking in the light for you means to accept the Bible as the only authority, then walk in the light as you see the light.
I will continue to seek the whole truth, and I know you will too. Your faith is not so fragile, that it can not be challenged by what other ancient authors have to say regarding the Adam and Eve story. I learned from their lessons. I think the cave of treasures has significant spiritual meaning, at least to me.

I don't think the Essenes would have bothered to make copies and hide the books if they thought the info was frivolous. In case you aren't aware, there were 3 majors sects at the time of Christ, the Pharisees, Saducees, and the Essenes. Jesus didn't reprimand the Essenes, so as a truth seeker, I kinda think there is a lot to learn from them.

reply to post by GargIndia


For some reason, when I read your reply, I thought you were bible thumping me. So, my reply probably doesn't make since. I woke up way too early, 4am and couldn't go back to sleep. I must have been more asleep than I thought. Anyway, I am sorry for misunderstanding your post.

misskat1
Or are you maintaining your position, because you have decided the small amount of information contained in Genesis is all there is to the story?

I'm maintaining my position because the object of the exercise is understanding what Genesis is trying to tell us. So the teachings that come out of non-Biblical books are not relevant to the purpose.
If I was trying to understand a passage from the Koran, I would not bring in Buddhist teachings.
And if I was trying to understand a Buddhist book, I would not use the Koran as an aid to interpretation.
Similarly, if I am aiming at an understanding of Biblical teaching, books which are offering Gnostic teachings like "spiritual bodies" have no relevance to what I'm doing.

Are you not curious about their life outside the garden?

In the first place, it is not important to me that the story should be taken literally. It is a story with a message, and the details which aren't part of the message don't matter.
In the second place, if I did have any curiosity, it would certainly not be satisfied by stories which had evidently been invented to fill up gaps in the information supplied.

Jesus didn't reprimand the Essenes

That point has zero significance. Jesus did not give a critique of all the written opinions of the world- in fact, he didn't actually rebuke ANY written opinions. Jesus had a mission to do among the main populace of Palestine and rebuked those who obstructed it. There is no reason to think that he encountered the Essenes in his mission, and no reason to think that he knew everything that was being written in their books, so he had no occasion to criticise them. That silence does not amount to an endorsement of evrything they wrote (if, indeed, that book was one of the Dead Sea scrolls and you are not just guessing).

As I said, this is an exercise in understanding Biblical teaching. Non-Biblical teaching is beside the point.

reply to post by DISRAELI


You do realize that the bible doesn't tell us what the "fatal Fruit" was? So, how can you ask the question, and expect the only perimeter to be a book that doesn't have an answer? I might have missed the part in your op when you declared the only acceptable answer and only debate from other readers would have to come from the Bible as the only authority or guide. You are aware this isn't a Christian only site? There are a lot of opposing views, and if you only want an answer that agrees with your theology, then you should go to one of those sites. Otherwise, expect differing opinions from a multitude of different beliefs systems.

The answer isn't to be found in the cannon of Scripture, it simply isn't there. We can speculate, bring the scriptural passages together, and come to our own conclusions. Which we should all do. And you have obviously done just that. I just choose my speculations to include other ancient texts.

In my personal adventure of figuring this out, I have come to believe that the 66 books were not the only inspired scriptures that were available 2000 years ago. Men decided which ones were important. I don't trust anyone to decide my path. Or that I am incapable of "knowing" what is truth when I read or hear it. Especially the Catholic Church, which I think (and yes I would have to look it up) were involved with the decision on which books should be allowed in the Cannon of Scripture. If you are Catholic, than I more than understand your position. It was about control. Another person deciding for you what you should believe.

I do agree, fact or fiction the forgotten books could have been written as a bed time story. Or simply a legend, maybe a oral history passed on for generations. We will never know for sure. Does that negate the message? I don't think so. And you can think whatever you choose about the lost books too.

Jesus' cousin John the Baptist was an Essene, and many scholars believe Mary and Joseph were also Essene. In my opinion, that makes them important to understand. Especially to those who try to emulate the life of Jesus, and who are truly trying to understand his teachings.
But like Paul said, when everyone was arguing over BS that didn't really matter, "I know nothing, except Jesus Christ and him Crucified".

misskat1
You do realize that the bible doesn't tell us what the "fatal Fruit" was? So, how can you ask the question, and expect the only perimeter to be a book that doesn't have an answer?

Yes it does. It says very clearly "knowledge of good and evil". If we drop the idea that it has to be a physical fruit from a physical tree and accept it as a metaphor, then "knowledge of good and evil" is the answer which the text supplies to my question. It only remains to examine that phrase and see what it might mean.

There are a lot of opposing views, and if you only want an answer that agrees with your theology, then you should go to one of those sites. Otherwise, expect differing opinions from a multitude of different beliefs systems.

Now wait a minute. Where have I tried to prevent you from giving your answers? The most I have done is disagree with you, and I am as entitled to disagree with you as you are to disagree with me. You suggested that I should look outside Genesis for an answer, and my response was "No thanks, I'm not interested". How exactly is that an interference with your freedom of speech and prevention of debate?

It seems to be that you are operating a double standard here. You demand the right to present a view opposing mine, but if I present a view opposing yours, even in such a mild form as "I'm not interested in what you're suggesting", you pull out the old "stifling debate, not a Christian site" card.

I am going to repeat what I said in earlier posts. the object of the exercise, in writing the OP, was to look for an understanding of what the Genesis account is trying to tell us. Therefore I have no interest in pursuing other accounts, because they are not relevant to my purpose.



PS You mean "parameter". "Perimeter" has a different meaning altogether.