The Danger of the Collective. Whats Happening to ATS?

reply to post by Crakeur

Holy jumpin Jehoshaphat, do you really have 3 million stars???

And yah, it would be nice to have a central place to cross reference hoaxes prior to one's posting.

Unfortunately, I've posted more than one, usually in the 9/11 forums.

reply to post by tothetenthpower


So what happens if someone calls someone else a hoaxer in that thread, either mistakenly or on purpose, and provides a link to evidence that turns out to be invalid, and it is not allowed to discuss the evidence in that thread?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I want to say thank to many of you for participating.

I have started a Community based thread here, even if you disagreed with my stance you can still help, add a few tips so that others can be more aware.

COMMUNITY ATS GROUP

Peace, NRE.

OtherSideOfTheCoin
reply to post by NoRegretsEver

 

The sites motto is "Deny ignorance"

There is a lot more to denying ignorance then just ignoring hoaxes. It also involves getting informed. I would remain ignorant if I did not do my own research. Just like I would be ignorant if I believed everything I read. This is what I have always done though. Sometimes I find myself cursing some idiot that said something that was a lie to me when I was growing up. I grew up in a rural town in the middle of no where full of uneducated retards (can't think of a better word).

I call them that because they would go around telling things as fact that were urban legends or myths. There's more to it then that but I feel I was held back by not growing up around well educated people. In fact a lot of people who stayed in that area just reproduced this same cycle of ignorance. So IMHO as previously stated educating yourself is just as important if not more important then denying hoaxes.

reply to post by tothetenthpower




I think it's important to weed out Hoaxes as much as possible. There are the hoaxs(hoaxi??) that are just over-enthusiastic mistakes and then there are the dileberate ones which can cause reall harm.

The problem, in my opinion, is the proliferation of down right lies and their co-opting of rational discussion based on verifiable facts in many threads. Fortunatly, in some threads, they are just ignored; but they do show up as threads more then I'd like to see.

Having a forum for search techniques, how to evaluate a source, etc. is a wonderful idea. Member's favorite sources for information and facts would be nice too. I've often tried to encourage folks to let me know good, well sourced conservative sites so that I can check in on them as I do my more liberal but well fact checked sources.

The problem with a link to a bunch of sources for a fact is that the gatekeeper of spin becomes that Link Page. One should always find mutiple sources for their facts.

The big Red Flag for me, on anything, is when all sources lead back to one original source, one primary source. And fact checking to that extreme does take time. You must always check the funding of any source and weight that as well and it's tough. There is SourceWatch for some help; but the Money Guys are keen on transparency.

It is more important then ever that we learn about evaluating information and it is not being taught well in the schools. With out this critical ability - one becomes a slave to conditioning through propoganda.

The "Deny Ignorance" tag of ATS is in my opinion very poor. Deny - means :

de·ny [dih-nahy] Show IPA
verb (used with object), de·nied, de·ny·ing.
1.
to state that (something declared or believed to be true) is not true: to deny an accusation.
2.
to refuse to agree or accede to: to deny a petition.
3.
to withhold the possession, use, or enjoyment of: to deny access to secret information.
4.
to withhold something from, or refuse to grant a request of: to deny a beggar.
5.
to refuse to recognize or acknowledge; disown; disavow; repudiate: to deny one's gods.

dictionary.reference.com...

So is ATS denying the existence of Ignorance or not agreeing with it or .....

Ignorance:

ig·no·rance [ig-ner-uhns] Show IPA
noun
the state or fact of being ignorant; lack of knowledge, learning, information, etc.

ig·no·rance [ig-ner-uhns] Show IPA
noun
the state or fact of being ignorant; lack of knowledge, learning, information, etc.


So is ATS denying the existence of lack of knowledge or refusing to acknowledge lack of information, etc...

It's a terrible tag that I'd like to see changed to something more meaningful in the literal sense.

NoRegretsEver


See, it may be just me, but this seems to me that people are concerned with wasting time, as if there is a rush on research, but I also see that kind of thinking that is causing ATS to be more and more mainstream. If you on the site, whether lurking, posting, in a debate or even short stories, then its not a waste, and frankly shouldn't be seen that way.

Once again we are in agreement, some of my greatest learning experiences have been down to making mistakes and the feeling of being a fool that comes with it. It sharpens the senses. Nothing is a waste of time except for what you make it to be.

reply to post by Pimpintology

There's more to it then that but I feel I was held back by not growing up around well educated people.

You were. Anyone who grows up in an uneducated environment is at a disadvantage. Those who break the cycle are fortunate and I would hope those folks would recognize as much.

I do so wish however, that people would use the word 'retard', or 'retarded', in it's proper context. It's like a punch in the gut to read or hear the word used as a verb. It is after all, a form of mental illness.
_________________

Is there a link to this "HOAX" list (?) It would be more than a little embarrassing to link to a known hoaxer. Oftentimes whenever I'm reading I get a feeling about the content and don't feel the information adds up. In these cases and in my mind, I leave the page thinking it's all bunk. Sometimes I wonder if I'm wrong, but have to follow my instincts.

ETA; OK-Scratch the question of the hoax list (lol).

CirqueDeTruth
***snip***

I for one am thankful, this site has such a stringent policy on backing up theories with reputable sources.

This nearly had me choke on my tea.
Yea.
A stringent policy on backing up theories with reputable sources but nevertheless a "Freedom of Speech" approach to allow any and all information - For the sake of debate. As long as we are polite we can ridicule anything and spread whatever lies we want.
ATS policy allows us access to huge amounts of information but very little knowledge.

This list being compiled will only further my efforts in helping people identify known hoaxers, fear mongers, and disinfo that is spread via the web.

Said list will have no value at all.

Those who need to refer to the list won't.
Those who should update the list won't after a while.

Those who search on Google etc. will still be referred to the origional garbage and have no inclination to search for a thread that exposes a hoaxer.

Is there an alternative?

Yes there is. If ATS Staff lived up to their own motto, then they would mark any comment in any thread according to the Hoaxer List with an addendum in their posting with the text : "Be aware that this poster is a known hoaxer".
It is possible in the programming of this site, but it will never happen.

And even then it would be futile.
As long as DeskTopResearchers are allowed to ridicule proper science and well established principles of science simply because they claim that "anything is possible", then we have no choice but to consider ATS as entertaining, but not a source for Denying Ignorance.

ATS is a source of a huge number of posts that point you in the direction of very interesting stuff. But that's about it.

Misinformation, ridiculous claims and blatant lies are still allowed and considered important parts of any discussion.

Even the fabulous star and flag system has lost it's significance. Now it is merely a measure of how many followers a given poster might have. It is by no means a measure of the quality of content. We have all seen loads of stars and flags on stupid and ignorant threads and posts. New users on ATS are easily confused by ratings next to a handle.

All in all ATS are left with the problem any library in the world is faced with.
How do we insure quality by sorting out the information that has been proven to be wrong?

I work in a public library and we would NEVER knowingly keep wrong information in the hopes that our patrons might find the book that refutes erronious information. If we know a book contains bad science or bad facts it is either clearly marked as belonging in a section reserved for "alternative science" - far away from the section with the reputable science - OR it is disposed of.
It would be absolutley stupid to keep the two books next to each other on a shelf. It would give the "alternative book" a certain "It might be true".

As for those who claim that valid information is easily found on the internet via Goggle and other search engines I can only say this:
Results are given according to popularity or who have paid to get their results towards the front of the list.
Often the valid information is available on sites that charges you for access.
The result is that many only find information that hasn't been validated.
It is a proven fact that students using search engines often stop at page one or two, but most likely will chose any search result that favours what they already think is correct. Even if it isn't.

I think that we all come to this site not to deny ignorance, but to discuss alternative ideas with like minded people, who are interested in discussing in an intelligent manner the types of things that we wouldn't find in mainstream sites. And yes sometimes we are going to come across threads on topics that interest us , but when we start reading the thread we discover that this is something that we have read about before and discovered that this idea has been debunked by many other people already. At which point in time you can leave a short message saying this topic has discussed and debunked. At which point in time you can choose to end your involvement in that thread. Those that wish to continue discussing the topic are free to do so, even if you know the topic is worthless. But there is no need to get your undies in a bunch because you are aware that this particular thread is not worth pursuing. It is important to let others follow the same process that you went through in discovering that this theory has been debunked. As I've said you can leave a quick short message that it has been debunked and move on to something else , people who are already in the know will see three or four messages from various members and realize one of two things, number one , this has already been debunked, and move on, or number two I'm still interested in this topic and I'm going to continue reading cause I haven't made up my mind yet. But seriously there is no reason to drive yourself crazy with anger, or the need to prove someone wrong, unless that is the type of thing you get off on. As well if your on the other end of it and you have started a thread on a topic you believe in and someone comes on to your thread trying to be ignorant, rude and argumentative you always have the option to ignore those ignorant posts and only respond to the constructive ones, it can be easily started to another member that from here on out you are ignoring their posts because you feel they are not constructive and if you don't want to discuss this topic with the rest of us you are free to leave this thread, it has been to my experience that if you ignore a bully long enough they will just go away.