The Narcissistic Veterans and Their Illogical Logic

What about military that get hurt at home bases in the states on the job...an injury or some such...Workers comp is ok for civilians but vets should get nothing? What about the many folks that lie about bad backs and such to get social security benefits...and illegals getting "free stuff"...that is all ok but vets needing help is not?

It is absurd to paint all vets with such a broad brush....there are good and bad everywhere and lots of people are often faced with hard choices and make bad choices. Generalization is ridiculous. There are good and bad cops, yet I bet you'd call one if need be. Gotta get real about this...there are no real or easy answers to the isuue.

I have seen and posted what DU does to the kids overseas as well as what it does to our own kids born to soldiers. I bet they wish every day they never had been in war. Anyone that has been in war realizes that....some sooner, some later.

If we start letting hate rule our emotions, hearts, souls, feelings, we may become like the so-called "enemy"...we will become our own worst enemy. Our lives will be joyless and hate is like poison and will accomplish nothing but negativity and breed more hate...such a waste....just as much a waste as war and the very thing you hate.

reply to post by imasheep


As someone who spent some of his childhood and youth in a dictatorship, a real one run by generals and admirals and chiefs of heavily armed police, I find some of the posts here very scary.

Both sides of the argument are valid but fetishing the military is very, very dangerous.

If it ever does come to the martial law situation so many of you fantasise about, it's the military that's going to arrest, torture and kill your folks. All your assault weapons and Soldier of Fortune talk will mean diddly. It's happened before.

reply to post by Battleline



I don't know where you come off claiming my post is filled with hate. My post is filled with truth...sometimes it hurts.

I didn't create this to persecute vets. When I seen what happened at the WW2 memorial, I was just as proud as any of you.

We all speak of entitlements as of late...mainly, why do we keep giving things to people who we feel don't deserve it. Well, like it or not, veterans arent fulfilling their end of the bargain to the American people, why should they get a pass because of some inherent need to be patriotic??

Besides, you cannot claim that "I agree with some of what the OP posted..." If just one thing I posted is true, there's no argument against any of it. I'm speaking of CONTRACTS only, I'm not trying to be hateful.

reply to post by ripcontrol


You'd have a case if my thread had anything to do with medical care for injuries. It doesn't.

Low interest loans, free (or nearly free) college, tax free groceries, are other freebies that are just given away.

Lets make an analogy...see if you can take your blinders off and follow it:

Almost all of you have claimed that Obama should be impeached for abusing power and willfully violating both the Constitution and the oath He took to protect the document.

How is that any different than what I am claiming?? I remember when that drone took out those American Citizens. There were threads with a hundred flags about it going at the time. The call was that it was treason.

It was...perpetrated by the Commander and Cheif of the Armed Forces. By proxy, anyone who had direct knowledge of the event beforehand, or was culpable in helping it happen, is guilty of treason. Hence, they violated their contract and none should ever get ANY benefit paid to them. By doing so...We The People become accessories after the fact, and by allowing it....We make it clear that We condone it.

Funny thing about the rule of law...it applies to everyone...or its supposed to...otherwise, what's the point of this Republic? Why should one group have more Liberties than another? If I violate a contract, rule of law dictates I will not get any benefits associated with the contract. It should apply accross the board...and there's really no justifiable retort to that that makes any sense in reality.

reply to post by Aliensun



Had you taken the time to actually read the first post I mentioned the veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan, not WW2.

Nothing in my posts are trash...they're facts. The whole idea that people were just. following orders is asinine on its face. Like I've said in this thread numerous times, the Nuremberg Trials solidified that notion was false. You cannot get around one undeniable fact: Why take an oath to defend the Constitution and the country against all enemies both foreign and domestic, and then shun your responsibility to that oath expecting US to then pay benefits? Its idiocy and you're making claims based solely on an emotional response.

As I seem to be retorting the same lame comments about following orders and the obligations of uniformed personnel, I decided to finally put this topic to rest.

Noone can retort what follows. Its all law, readily found if you'd like to call me on it. The law is the law...ignorance of it is no excuse.

Article 90 of the Uniformed Code of Justice
"One has a duty to follow LEGAL orders of superiors. Any serviceman who follows any unlawful order will be prosecuted.

The Supreme Court has ruled on this stating that,"Servicemen act at their own peril when obeying orders."


United States v Keenan

Keenan obeyed an order to kill an unarmed Vietnamese Citizen. He was found guilty of violating his oath to the Constitution and sentenced to life in prison.

The Military Court of Appeals held that,"The justification of acts done persuant to orders DOES NOT EXIST if the order was of such a nature that a man of ordinary sense and understanding would know it to be ILLEGAL."



According to the Manual for Court Martials:

"An order requiring the performance of a military duty or act may be inferred to be lawful...This inference does not apply to ANY ILLEGAL order such as one that directs the commission of ANY crime. (Article 93)

UCMJ 892.ART.92(1)
"Military personnel have an obligation to follow any lawful order, BUT...they also have the duty and moral obligation to DISOBEY any unlawful orders, including direct orders from POTUS" "The moral and legal obligation is to the Constitution of the US."

The Constitution is CLEAR..."All treaties signed by the Government are equivalent to the law of the land itself." (Article 6 paragraph 2)

1948-Nuremberg :

The chief prosecutor stated the following: "The very essence of the Nuremberg Charter is that individuals have intentional duties which transcend the national obligations of obedience to the individual State."

Now thst I've given unequivocal proof of what the LAW and US CONSTITUTION states, lets proceed to drive the final nail in the coffin that is this discussion:

The Iraq war was UNCONSTITUTIONAL at the onset. There's all kinds of legal references which state this fact, but I will use just one. The UN has ruled that pre-emptive war in the name of Democracy violates every treaty of war that nations have signed.

So...if the decision is made that the orders to begin or continue the war are illegal, then each bomb dropped is a war crime, each bomb loaded is a war crime, each support effort will be aiding and abetting a crime. Each death, especially those of civilians is a war crime...not collateral damage.

Given that over 50% of Iraqi citizens are under the age of 16, it is a war against children and a crime against humanity.


Having proven beyond a doubt that the LAW states unlawfuul orders aren't to be followed, I again say that anyone who participated in Iraq or Afghanistan violated the Constitution and their contract to the American people and should receive NO benefits whatsoever. There is no reasonable argument which allows for any retort.

I leave you with this quote from Albert Einstein:

"If just 2% of the military refused to participate, the wars could not continue"


Quit thinking with emotion. The law is the law and it applies to everyone without regard and ignorance is no excuse. You don't have to like it, but like you are all saying...vote it out, but until then, you are obligated. to follow it.

reply to post by imasheep


I've disobeyed plenty of orders in my three decades of service, precisely because I questioned the legality of them. Even went up and down the ranks quite a few times for it.

I didn't deploy for love of Country (though I do love this Country) or to make the corporations fatter. I did it to keep my guys alive and bring them home in one piece. Which I did, despite their many attempts to do something stupid.

Servicemembers have a term that applies here. $#!T house lawyers. They'll always get you into trouble.

reply to post by Klassified

Our soldiers have done what was asked of them by the American public, through its representatives. Until we have enough solidarity, and intestinal fortitude, as a people to demand these wars and actions come to a complete stop. Then our lack of action is the same as permission.

Actually its a lot more twisted than that. Most people can't take action, they simply denounce the corruption and governments but don't have the free time, energy (its all being spent trying to keep from going under treading water), or for some, the warrior status, in them to fight for freedom. I won't fight for it, as that is lower frequency. I will it and see it and then expect the real interactive universe and Family to provide it as I do not intend to become a dark hat in response to the dark hats.

Also, the very army that is supposedly doing what the public wills through the 1 elected king and his knights, (ie. we're not really in a democracy and the people don't really endorse the crimes at the top, they only get to vote for a king who lies about everything), would side with that king against the people and carry all the bad orders given them, overall.

So the people are blamed for not dying, having their children taken from, prompting martial law, and from not being cutthroat militia themselves?

Save it, Im tired of that crapola.

I have the right to live peacefully, will peacefully and expect PEACE. I won't give that right away and don't endorse any of the kings. The system is so corrupt all free will has been taken away and the karma they try to dump on the citizens for their own crimes isn't cutting it with the Higher Powers above, they note who the real parties doing things are. Its not the public.

reply to post by Unity_99

don't have the free time, energy (its all being spent trying to keep from going under treading water), or for some, the warrior status, in them to fight for freedom.

If you don't have the "free time" energy or the courage to fight, you neither deserve or should receive freedom. You deserve to get exactly what you DO have "free time" energy and courage for: nothing.

have the right to live peacefully, will peacefully and expect PEACE.

There is no such "right" on this planet and there never was. The only "right" you have to to get what you are willing to sacrifice for and with you it looks like nothing.

Carreau
reply to post by Unity_99

 

don't have the free time, energy (its all being spent trying to keep from going under treading water), or for some, the warrior status, in them to fight for freedom.

If you don't have the "free time" energy or the courage to fight, you neither deserve or should receive freedom. You deserve to get exactly what you DO have "free time" energy and courage for: nothing.

have the right to live peacefully, will peacefully and expect PEACE.

There is no such "right" on this planet and there never was. The only "right" you have to to get what you are willing to sacrifice for and with you it looks like nothing.

Really? So people who are forced to work round the clock, and in the US in some states, forced to do this even when they haven't stopped bleeding after childbirth, with poor health, low pay, and substandard living conditions for many, are supposed to change the world?

NOT!

THere is no free will, so the people are already free. I know, have memories of why I'm here, the Cosmos does not share your belief, Higher Ups do not share your belief.

But its really important to not accept those black and white ideas, and start to work at truly understanding everyone around you, walk in their shoes and realize, heck you'd be just like everyone around you, if you lived their lives. That is what is required of people, because that frees you and brings in your sovereignity, where you realize that all the psuedo laws here, and their fine print, and they cheat and put it in. Banks, governments all create their buildings on sacred geometry layouts to bring their documetns and contracts into multidimensional levels, ie. they want you to owe them more than this life.

But their contracts and fine print and documents ARE ALL NULL AND VOID. They're toilet paper and used as such by the cosmos. Its just a bully running around on the playground trying to capture the belief and mind of another. They have no right to their IOU's.

Free your mind and don't buy into the karmic ideas you just presented because the war is over your consciousness and what you stand for.

I stand for what I was shown in my experiences, that we will be rounding them up and arresting them cosmically when we regain our empowered selves. But for healing and cousneling in the end, for the Love and Goodness side does not retaliate or torture.

I myself due have free time because of my health, and spend it trying to write for awareness nonstop, though don't have money to do the things I would otherwise: form eco farms and help the homeless. Though we have had foster kids using our house as a resource, and tend to be there for them at times. We tend to share our resources. I would also get alternative media/radio in our region and form counsels of citizen to do their own research and start grass roots businesses and people pledgeing to only buy from each other and not give money Darth Vader anymore, on all the goods and services they can.

But, the most important part is I'm reminded that these problems are not mine to solve, the batton has to be passed to others, for people are in a school, and need to start working TOGETHER.

No, your American Citizens and others in the world do not have to do what they can't do. Their first duty is always to keep their children safe and they would fail every test there is if they don't. That is always the first duty, to your family and those around you, and as you have empowerment, and funds and health and energy, you might do more.

PERIOD.

So these asshats who are dumping this crapola on people are the actual criminals and are 100% responsible for the system.

I'll tell you something else Family and the Cosmos feel: they are sick and tired of martyrs. The work is awareness because things can only be done in numbers.

As for the Vets, and the Bikers, and the Truckers, KUDO's to them for banding together and doing something. They had some numbers and alot of support.

All those who are trying to get people to stand up forcefully, instead of speak up and say NO! are actually trying to turn them into dark hats, to adopt the wrong methods. There are no short cuts to the right methods that takes community and involvement with many people who are opposite to you, ie different religions, different colors, single mothers, and handicapped, even the homeless. It means adopting both freedom and equality into your mind and having empathy for all, and true understanding that universe never did revolve around the healhty young minority buck, but with the people. That the most common person on earth is a starving mother in ethiopia and her child, not the young slave class, buck in the middle class nations.

So first its unity, then its people working to solve the problems and holes their governments leave and with dignity saying no.

But they don't have any power in their votes. They are not forced to endorse the behaviors of the fascist being that they vote for who never listens to them. They're actually off all cosmic hooks altogether.

Not the PTB and world's mismanagement team, they wear it all and are 100% ON THE HOOK for all their plans.

That means the 18 year old soldier is not responsible, though hopefully he will have pulled away from carrying out truly horrific orders, but he's not responsible its the asshats giving the bad orders that are. He can face a firing squad if he pulls out. Not them.

That means the inner city teen who got involved in gang warfare, and some people died, who's whole inner core is crushed isn't responsible. He will be healed and counseled in the end.

The people are going to be healed.

Its the renegades running this planet, and their minions who are going to face the music in the end.

reply to post by Whodathunkdatcheese


I must disagree with you.

First, you are comparing apples to oranges. It has NEVER happened before...at least not in the last thousand years.

There's a glaring difference in your analogy compared to a martial law attempt in the US.

Foremost, all dictatorships have first disarmed the people before doing anything. That will never happen in the US.

Soldiers die just as easily as I. If they attempt to circumvent mine, or anyone else's rights by force, they will die. There is no way...NONE...that our own government or ANY government could facilitate a land war in this country. It isn't worth the effort and the losses would be huge.

This is easily provable by using all the wars in the last 50 years as a reference. We lost Vietnam. We lost Iraq. We are losing Afghanistan. Strictly because of the opposing forces using urban warfare. No matter how great the enemy forces, noone can defeat guerrilla warfare.

HOWEVER, none of that has anything to do with this thread. This thread is about the military violating their oath to the Constitution and therefore should not receive any benefits gauranteed by the contract they signed.

Muddying the waters with anything else is just a feeble attempt to disuade from the point I'm making. If you can refute the law, by all means do so, butt the fact remains that I am right and no word vomit about orders or ignorance means squat.

reply to post by Carreau


I'm sorry, but of course we have the right you fool. Its in every religion on the planet. Meaning YOU are in a severe minority with your comment seeing as 6billion people on the planet follow some sort of religious doctrine.

Furthermore, you are decreeing that if someone doesn't have the courage or will to fight, they don't deserve freedom!??

OMG...That means nuns, priests, children, senior citizens, deaf people, blind people, retarded people, those missing a leg, those dying of cancer don't deserve freedom??

I didn't take an oath to defend the Constitution. I didn't sign any contract to the American people. Just because I was born in thr US doesn't mean I have to fight for anything.
On the contrary, the military DID take an oath, they DID sign a contract, it is upon THEM to follow the laws dictated in the UCMJ...not ME. If a person taking an oath gets a pass by you, I wonder how you'd feel if false charges were brought against you and everyone who took the stand for the prosecution LIED under oath and you were wrongly convicted...would you then change youur mind about oaths?

That's rhetorical...we all know the answer already. And by knowing it, we all know you are just typing to see the pretty words appear on the screen.

Is there anyone posting that can DENY that everyone involved in Iraq is guilty...BY LAW....of war crimes?? NO. The law is the LAW. And as such, I stand by my claim that the vets of Iraq and Afghanistan shouldn't receive a DIME for anything.

reply to post by imasheep

I didn't take an oath to defend the Constitution. I didn't sign any contract to the American people. Just because I was born in thr US doesn't mean I have to fight for anything.

No, because you are above it all. That is for your loosers to do your bidding, right?

Is there anyone posting that can DENY that everyone involved in Iraq is guilty...BY LAW....of war crimes??

ME! I never committed any war crimes whatsoever and saved more Iraqi’s than I did Americans in my lifetime.

If you want to criticize. Then walk a mile in a man's shoes. Otherwise....

You have absolutely no clue. Go back to work at McDonald's flippin' hamburgers. You have no future in law.

reply to post by Unity_99

Really? So people who are forced to work round the clock, and in the US in some states, forced to do this even when they haven't stopped bleeding after childbirth, with poor health, low pay, and substandard living conditions for many, are supposed to change the world?

Tell that to the farmers and shopkeepers who left their farms and stores in the hands of their children and wives to fight the revolutionary war. If I'm not mistaken, they managed to change the world, at great personal cost.

The American people are slaves by their own complicity. If they were united and so motivated, they would drop everything and make the world change.

On topic, The OP has a legitimate gripe, with the Government, not with the soldiers. Using this claim of "Depleted uranium rounds" in the theater of war as a means to justify a violation of the Geneva convention is laughable at best. If, and I emphasize IF this claim can be substantiated, show me one instance in which soldiers get to choose the ordinance that is supplied to them in battle. You make it sound as if the soldiers are standing in line saying "Hmm, what to use today... standard munitions, or depleted uranium rounds... Screw it, I'll take an order of the depleted uranium rounds, I feel like killing some babies today."

The OP is actually trying to blame the soldiers for the actions of the DoD, White House and Congress, and that is ignorant in the least, and despicable at best. If the OP had any intimate understanding of the military, this post would never have happened, or, would have been worded in a far different manner.

The soldiers served as ordered, in good faith; give them their benefits and due respect.

In my opinion, this is a case of firing upon the wrong target.

reply to post by imasheep


I don't know about veterans but I do know about narcissism. Having so much to do with the stubborn ignorant ego part of the mind, narcissism is the number one thing preventing a world Utopian society. It is the very thing that encourages an individual to not look at spirituality in the sense that we are all one, but it is the opposite in thinking that you exist and are more important than the others in existence. If you understand that we are not the mind, not the body but spirit than there is no way to perceive the world as a narcissist, but it is the narcissist who has to control other people because it gives them pride. This is basically taking a direct path away from spirituality. It is using people for a complete physical means. It is the root of evil, it is the existence of lies, it is the beginning of all denial.

reply to post by imasheep

I didn't take an oath to defend the Constitution. I didn't sign any contract to the American people. Just because I was born in thr US doesn't mean I have to fight for anything.

Spoken like a true coward. I hope you live forever.

All I gotta say is this:

imasheep
As I seem to be retorting the same lame comments about following orders and the obligations of uniformed personnel, I decided to finally put this topic to rest.

Noone can retort what follows. Its all law, readily found if you'd like to call me on it. The law is the law...ignorance of it is no excuse.

Article 90 of the Uniformed Code of Justice
"One has a duty to follow LEGAL orders of superiors. Any serviceman who follows any unlawful order will be prosecuted.

The Supreme Court has ruled on this stating that,"Servicemen act at their own peril when obeying orders."


United States v Keenan

Keenan obeyed an order to kill an unarmed Vietnamese Citizen. He was found guilty of violating his oath to the Constitution and sentenced to life in prison.

The Military Court of Appeals held that,"The justification of acts done persuant to orders DOES NOT EXIST if the order was of such a nature that a man of ordinary sense and understanding would know it to be ILLEGAL."



According to the Manual for Court Martials:

"An order requiring the performance of a military duty or act may be inferred to be lawful...This inference does not apply to ANY ILLEGAL order such as one that directs the commission of ANY crime. (Article 93)

UCMJ 892.ART.92(1)
"Military personnel have an obligation to follow any lawful order, BUT...they also have the duty and moral obligation to DISOBEY any unlawful orders, including direct orders from POTUS" "The moral and legal obligation is to the Constitution of the US."

The Constitution is CLEAR..."All treaties signed by the Government are equivalent to the law of the land itself." (Article 6 paragraph 2)

1948-Nuremberg :

The chief prosecutor stated the following: "The very essence of the Nuremberg Charter is that individuals have intentional duties which transcend the national obligations of obedience to the individual State."

Now thst I've given unequivocal proof of what the LAW and US CONSTITUTION states, lets proceed to drive the final nail in the coffin that is this discussion:

The Iraq war was UNCONSTITUTIONAL at the onset. There's all kinds of legal references which state this fact, but I will use just one. The UN has ruled that pre-emptive war in the name of Democracy violates every treaty of war that nations have signed.

So...if the decision is made that the orders to begin or continue the war are illegal, then each bomb dropped is a war crime, each bomb loaded is a war crime, each support effort will be aiding and abetting a crime. Each death, especially those of civilians is a war crime...not collateral damage.

Given that over 50% of Iraqi citizens are under the age of 16, it is a war against children and a crime against humanity.


Having proven beyond a doubt that the LAW states unlawfuul orders aren't to be followed, I again say that anyone who participated in Iraq or Afghanistan violated the Constitution and their contract to the American people and should receive NO benefits whatsoever. There is no reasonable argument which allows for any retort.

I leave you with this quote from Albert Einstein:

"If just 2% of the military refused to participate, the wars could not continue"


Quit thinking with emotion. The law is the law and it applies to everyone without regard and ignorance is no excuse. You don't have to like it, but like you are all saying...vote it out, but until then, you are obligated. to follow it.

Wrong

You are.. young one..

You are trying to apply specifics to generalities and then claim the whole generality is true..
It is a bad fallacy in your logic..

Have you sat through any Court Martial?

You have a mind set that is slightly off


Again I ask what are the procedures for dealing with an unlawfully given order
The UCMJ does not out line it.. So you do not get to hunt and peck with google..

Your a keyboard jockey with an agenda...

The law is the law.. But which part.. Differences are crucial..

You left a whole lot of the hearings that went into those decisions
Like evidentiary procedures..

I suggest you go back to school and learn a few things when you know what your talking about...

For the record..Since your want to be a purist...
Lets take your example.. The following orders one

Did you mention how the allies actually cheated the Nazi's out of truly fair trials..
Or did you not take into account political deals made with several countries that influenced trials.. Not the evidence presented..
Your rules not mine...

As for following illegally given orders..Technically you pay taxes when you buy something.. So technically you can be arrested and tried for supporting those wars you mentioned... After all you voted ofr the people in office.. And by not voting you would have voted for the winner..

imasheep
reply to post by ripcontrol

 

You'd have a case if my thread had anything to do with medical care for injuries. It doesn't.

Low interest loans, free (or nearly free) college, tax free groceries, are other freebies that are just given away.

Lets make an analogy...see if you can take your blinders off and follow it:

Almost all of you have claimed that Obama should be impeached for abusing power and willfully violating both the Constitution and the oath He took to protect the document.

How is that any different than what I am claiming?? I remember when that drone took out those American Citizens. There were threads with a hundred flags about it going at the time. The call was that it was treason.

It was...perpetrated by the Commander and Cheif of the Armed Forces. By proxy, anyone who had direct knowledge of the event beforehand, or was culpable in helping it happen, is guilty of treason. Hence, they violated their contract and none should ever get ANY benefit paid to them. By doing so...We The People become accessories after the fact, and by allowing it....We make it clear that We condone it.

Funny thing about the rule of law...it applies to everyone...or its supposed to...otherwise, what's the point of this Republic? Why should one group have more Liberties than another? If I violate a contract, rule of law dictates I will not get any benefits associated with the contract. It should apply accross the board...and there's really no justifiable retort to that that makes any sense in reality.

A) you named generality and did not eliminate a specific..
I am pretty sure you might want to fact check that statement

You are changing your tune after you realized that you made a mistake..

b) Freebies.. I am little pissed because I know of no said freebies..
LIL's and the like based on credit scores..
please post a link to said proof

tax free groceries.. (you are truly special needs..) have you checked the prices versus location and travel for most vets... It is called the nex.. or px.. check the prices.. They are ran by private companies.. the cost does not cancel out for me and mine

c) beautiful strawman argument..

Fist move to challenge then claim I am part of group that said impeach Obama.. Please do not put words in my mouth like a similar bad joke laced with T and C Violations can be said about yours..

So please list the specific members post as proof they said such things..

Its the equivalent of me say how all liberal women love real men and liberal men are afraid that a real man will still them away..

If we are going around impeaching do NOT stop at the top two on the executive..
Take the cabinets and the Czar to..
All of congress, staffers,Paiges, and aides as well
and do not forget the justices and their staff..

I am an equal opportunity @$%^&*($... Do not do a half way job... If you are going to be in favor of cleaning dont stop at the first step

D) for your first true civics lesson..
Your arguing morals that you do not have against the realities of a system you want control of...

I sense much weakness in you.. Your word choice indicates a great fear of something.. It seems to be of those with power over you.. Your post sound scared to me..



Like I said the Marine Corps has debate team.. I think you would do great on it.. Just sign twice on that dotted line..

Tell the recruiter every thing you have said here



PS.. Could you please provide evidence of the free bies


In the end...
my question for you... Why are you so afraid of the veterans..