Mark 4:11-12 : The myth that Jesus came to save all sinners

sk0rpi0n
The answer in the book is that Jesus did not come to "save everybody from sin", or Jesus would not have prevented those people from being forgiven.

As usual, you see only what you want to see ... and what you want to see is that Christianity 'has Christianity wrong'. No matter how hard you try, Christians aren't going to become Muslims because you think you know the bible better than they do.


As Adjensen says ... Jesus is quoting Isaiah.
As Blue Jay says ... you are taking it out of context .. quotes from Isaiah.
As pstrron says .... Rather simple to answer if you had bothered to even read Mark 3.
As Shdak says ... Everyone has the chance to be converted and forgiven
And Enochwasright has good information as well.

IF you really were interested in understanding the quote .. it's all there.
And this information is easily googled.

Mark 4:11-12
D-R Bible, Haydock Commentary:

Ver. 11. Such as are out of the Church, though they both hear and read, they cannot understand. (Ven. Bede, in Chap. iv, Mark.)

Ver. 12. That seeing they may see, &c. In punishment of their willfully shutting their eyes, (Matthew xiii. 15.) God justly withdrew those lights and graces which otherwise he would have given them, for their effectual conversion. (Challoner) --- These speeches here and elsewhere, we are not to understand as if he spoke in parables to this end that the hearers might not understand, lest they should be converted; but we must learn the true sense from the corresponding texts in Matthew xiii, and Acts xxviii, where our Saviour and St. Paul render it thus: with their ears they have been dull of hearing, and their eyes they have shut. lest, perhaps, they may see, and understand, and be converted, and I heal them. Whereby it is evident, that the speaking in parables was not the cause, (for many besides the apostles heard and understood) but themselves, who would not hear and understand, and be converted: and thus they were the real cause of their own willful and obstinate infidelity. And therefore also he spoke in parables, because they were not worthy to understand, as the others were to whom he expounded them. (Bristow)

sk0rpi0n
your nebulous and hazy post is personal theology

If you mean that someones opinion and/or interpretation on theology goes against that which is well established then it is nebulous and hazy ... then that would mean that YOUR interpretation of Mark 4 is what is nebulous and hazy ... since it goes against 2,000 years of Christian established interpretation. Enochwasright is just fine.

reply to post by adjensen

Saving everyone would be universal salvation and most Christians do not teach that.

If what you say is true... then that rips a gaping hole into John 3:16.

"that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

(Which makes sense, because Jesus - in his own words - stated that he was sent only to the "lost sheep" of Israel.)

So why do Christians, in their quest to convert people, lie that Jesus was about saving everybody, when he clearly didn't want some to be saved through forgiveness of sin? How come they never bring up the fact that Jesus actually intended that some people shouldn't have the chance to forgiven of their sin?

Jesus either came to save all sinners... or he only had a select few in mind. It cant be both. Which is it?

sk0rpi0n
reply to post by adjensen

 

Saving everyone would be universal salvation and most Christians do not teach that.

If what you say is true... then that rips a gaping hole into John 3:16.
"that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

That's just obtuse.

Jesus came to save everyone ... WHO ACCEPTED BEING SAVED.
It's all right there. Adjensen is correct. He came to save everyone, but everyone isn't saved.
It's their choice.

reply to post by FlyersFan

YOUR interpretation of Mark 4 is what is nebulous and hazy

Why don't you address Mark 4:11-12 which clearly states that he didn't want some people to be forgiven of their sin.

A savior of all, who doesn't want some to be saved. Yup... and I'm a vegetarian / animal rights activist who enjoys nice juicy steaks.

sk0rpi0n
reply to post by adjensen

 

Saving everyone would be universal salvation and most Christians do not teach that.

If what you say is true... then that rips a gaping hole into John 3:16.

No, it doesn't.

Universal salvation teaches that everyone gets saved, which is what you seem to want to think Christians believe in. We do not.

Christianity, as well as John 3:16, teaches that those who seek Christ will be saved. There is no restriction on who can seek him, and those who seek will find. (Apart from Reformed Theology, in some fashion, but I doubt that you know enough about that aspect for it to be what you're basing your statements on.)

I'm not sure why something as simple and obvious as that has escaped you.

reply to post by FlyersFan

He came to save everyone, but everyone isn't saved.

Except those people who Jesus wanted to remain unforgiven weren't even given a chance... " lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them."

sk0rpi0n
Except those people who Jesus wanted to remain unforgiven weren't even given a chance... " lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them."

Oh for the love of St. Pete .... just stop it.
You've already been given pages of biblical teaching on this. But you ignore it.

AGAIN - Jesus was referring back to Isaiah
And here is the bible commentary on it all.

ark 4:11-12
D-R Bible, Haydock Commentary:

Ver. 11. Such as are out of the Church, though they both hear and read, they cannot understand. (Ven. Bede, in Chap. iv, Mark.)

Ver. 12. That seeing they may see, &c. In punishment of their willfully shutting their eyes, (Matthew xiii. 15.) God justly withdrew those lights and graces which otherwise he would have given them, for their effectual conversion. (Challoner) --- These speeches here and elsewhere, we are not to understand as if he spoke in parables to this end that the hearers might not understand, lest they should be converted; but we must learn the true sense from the corresponding texts in Matthew xiii, and Acts xxviii, where our Saviour and St. Paul render it thus: with their ears they have been dull of hearing, and their eyes they have shut. lest, perhaps, they may see, and understand, and be converted, and I heal them. Whereby it is evident, that the speaking in parables was not the cause, (for many besides the apostles heard and understood) but themselves, who would not hear and understand, and be converted: and thus they were the real cause of their own willful and obstinate infidelity. And therefore also he spoke in parables, because they were not
worthy to understand, as the others were to whom he expounded them. (Bristow)



Your agenda is transparent. And weak ..

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

Suffice to say Jesus wants all to be saved, but knew all would not be.

I don't recall Jesus giving an explanation as to why he wanted some to stay unforgiven of their sins, so you just made that up.

Jesus intended that some remain unforgiven. Thats what the scripture says. (Fine with me, as I don't have a problem with Jesus, who knew exactly what he was doing). So the idea of Jesus being sent to save all from sin.... is a myth.

sk0rpi0n
I don't recall Jesus giving an explanation as to why he wanted some to stay unforgiven of their sins, so you just made that up.

I don't recall Jesus saying that he wanted some to stay unforgiven of their sins, so you just made that up. He said that He came for ALL people, but that some wouldn't be forgiven because of their own actions in not accepting Him or His teachings. You have purposely twisted scripture and ignored other parts to suit your own 'I know Christianity better than Christians' hat you are trying to wear. It won't work.

reply to post by FlyersFan

I don't recall Jesus saying that he wanted some to stay unforgiven of their sins,

That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
- Mark 4:11-12

reply to post by FlyersFan

You have purposely twisted scripture and ignored other parts

I am quoting scripture directly.

Christians say that Jesus came to save ALL from sin.
The Bible tells us that Jesus made exceptions.

sk0rpi0n
Christians say that Jesus came to save ALL from sin.
The Bible tells us that Jesus made exceptions.

Is English not your native tongue? That's a serious question, because you really seem to be suffering from some reading comprehension issues, forgivable if English isn't your native language.

Christians, and the Bible, say that Jesus came to save all from sin.

Christians, and the Bible (including the passage you keep beating into the ground,) say that not all will be saved, for one reason or another, but which boils down to people not seeking Christ.

sk0rpi0n
I am quoting scripture directly.

No. You are quoting a piece of scripture, while ignoring the rest. All to fit your 'I know the bible better than christians' agenda that you are trying to put forward. READ THE WHOLE QUOTE and put it in context with the rest of scripture THAT JESUS WAS QUOTING BACK TO.

Geeeze ... I suppose if I say it enough you might actually figure it out ??

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


You missed the point. The origin of salvation is directly connected to the fall of man and the fallen beings of Genesis 6. Saving the seed of the Son of God was the point of the flood and salvation coming from Jesus ministry. The corruption of the seed would have ended the possibility of the savior being born. This was the plan all along from the fallen beings. Your question about salvation and why some would not be saved is directly connected to the fall of man. Salvation is extended to all mankind, yet there are those who are from another father. They will not be saved. They are the sons of Cain. The Bible makes it clear that salvation goes to the elect. What determines election? This depends on what came before the fall and what transpires after.

The entire point of the verse you quote is like the others we read. The outcome is dependent on the details of the story from beginning to end.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


As I was trying to show you, the mystery of parables--such as the flood of Genesis--relates directly to the baptism of man into the material world. It is not given to us to know yet. Some will never understand. I have been outlining this on ATS for the last few years. Very few get it. If you go back and read my posts, I explain it to you.

I don't expect you to get it. This is what the verses of Mark were implying. You only get it when you are prepared to see. This is true for everyone. Salvation from this only happens when you are finished with baptisms.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
- Mark 4:11-12

You are seeing this by the mistaken presupposition that you live once and can miss salvation. This is not the case. You must be born again. You will see after you are prepared to see. This is true for all of us. It may not happen in one life. Salvation comes at the end of the next 1000 years. We are ALL waiting. The story is not over yet.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Sorry dude but you are just wrong, you can't seem to comprehend that the ransom could be applied to all humans, but not be because of there actions, that's what that scripture is saying in the context of other bible passages. His sacrifice could save everybody, but he always knew it wouldn't. In his day Judas was the first one, we know this applied to, some Pharisees as well.
There is no myth, only your confusion with a bible passage taken completely out of context by you.

FUNNY ... the OP just said this on another thread ...

sk0rpi0n
op seems to think whatever he has learned during his few years as a muslim trumps the collective knowledge of Islamic scholarahip over 1400 years.

And yet he did here what he complained about on the other thread. The OP seems to think whatever he has learned during his few years of reading the bible (without an open mind and with the intent to discredit it) trumps the collective knowledge of Christian scholarship over 2,000 years.

Very funny.

sk0rpi0n
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
- Mark 4:11-12

I have spent a long time looking into these types of contradictions in the Bible, and at first glance they may seem to read one thing but actually do not. In short, it is simply that you are reading it wrong. The scripture tells us that the scripture reinforces itself, so that means if there is something that immediately points out as being off or contradictory, you simply have to read it over again. Here is where it reinforces itself; Surely the many verses indicating that Jesus sacrifice was for all should not have a contradiction. It means either it can be two things:

1.) That yes Jesus really doesn't love everyone and He simply plays favorites.
2.) That this is a misunderstanding of scripture.

If this was really option 1, the whole of Christianity and Jesus' life and God's work was a waste and I would denounce Christianity today if this were actually true, but it is not.

Here is what the verses mean, as though we were there. "Jesus why are you describing things in parables? I'll tell you why, because you guys know directly from me who I am, if I say this to other people directly they will think I am crazy, so I tell them in parables because they have more meaning and depth than a simple "I am God." [which many people in those days and these days are claiming] The parables I preach are for those who are seeking Me, otherwise they are just hearing something and not listening, seeing something and not knowing, because if they actually did truly seek after me, they would be saved."

So in essence, your argument proves rather the opposite of what your thread stated, and that is Jesus teaching parables does more for those seeking the Truth, than it does if He simply went without. There is no elect theology here that Jesus picks favorites, it is simply showing that Jesus knew there were those who are not truly seeking, though they might hear.

A good example would be this very post I am writing. You can read it, and skim over it and see nothing but words with poor grammar and spelling from me. Or you can read it and realizing that your original thoughts were quite contrary. It is about where your heart is before reading, not after, because if you were truly seeking the truth you would find it, and the reading would simply guide you in the right direction. This is what Jesus meant by these verses.