Osborne Unveils Tough New Rules For Jobless

reply to post by Lady_Tuatha


There are about 1 million people over the age of retirement still in work, this is because they are allowed to work past retirement age, it is now illegal for companies to force them to retire. I can see reasons why over 65's do this, extra money, something to do, they are skilled, etc. But I really do believe that they should retire, maybe they can do work in the community if they wanted to. Removing the over 65's from the workplace would reduce unemployment for people on benefits looking for work (JSA claimants) from 1.4 million to 400 000. There are about 407 000 non British immigrants claiming benefits, I will assume that half of these are on JSA and the other half on other type of benefits. If we had not of let them into this country, there would be 200 000 unemployed.

So after my calculations there are now 200 000 unemployed people seeking work and claiming JSA. Of course, there are still 1.3 million claiming other benefits and mostly legitimately.

Am I right or wrong, it seems so easy to me to resolve.

More immigration, more problems.

The over 65's working population is going to increase, causing the problem to get worse.

There also the illegal immigrants that are working fields, take aways, etc Removing these people from the country properly, instead of letting them go all the time, would also create more jobs

Please I would like your feedback! Thanks!

reply to post by rich76



It really isn't as simple as that.

reply to post by Scorchio

I don't know where you get the idea that we have wealth in this country.

We are in the G8 and have the fifth largest economy in the world yet the 28th highest standard of living - there's obviously something grossly amiss somewhere isn't there.

The country is on it's arse. There is a very small minority that has everything and the rest of us don't have enough.

This country is on it's arse due to the incompetence and policies of successive governments and the greed and avarice of the very small minority you mention who insist upon maintaining there levels of control and profit at the expense of the rest of us.

And part of their ongoing policy is to get 'the rest of us' to work for next to nothing.

I'm still waiting for a good reason why the unemployed in this country cannot support the employed by doing work that benefits our community.

If there's genuine work to be done then people should be offered a genuine wage to do that work - if they are not prepared then I agree that their benefits should be reduced or stopped entirely.
But it disgusts me that some people believe that benefit recipients should be forced to do what amounts to a full weeks work for the pittance that is JSA - a fair days wage for a fair days work - what's wrong with that?

Freeborn
reply to post by Scorchio

 

I don't know where you get the idea that we have wealth in this country.

We are in the G8 and have the fifth largest economy in the world yet the 28th highest standard of living - there's obviously something grossly amiss somewhere isn't there.

The country is on it's arse. There is a very small minority that has everything and the rest of us don't have enough.

This country is on it's arse due to the incompetence and policies of successive governments and the greed and avarice of the very small minority you mention who insist upon maintaining there levels of control and profit at the expense of the rest of us.

And part of their ongoing policy is to get 'the rest of us' to work for next to nothing.

I'm still waiting for a good reason why the unemployed in this country cannot support the employed by doing work that benefits our community.

If there's genuine work to be done then people should be offered a genuine wage to do that work - if they are not prepared then I agree that their benefits should be reduced or stopped entirely.
But it disgusts me that some people believe that benefit recipients should be forced to do what amounts to a full weeks work for the pittance that is JSA - a fair days wage for a fair days work - what's wrong with that?

edit on 2/10/13 by Freeborn because: grammar and clarity

Yes, there is something seriously amiss. But we the people allowed it to happen and we're still allowing it to happen. But government corruption isn't the issue here.

Everyone is entitled to a fair days wage for a fair days work. But the work is not there. It doesn't exist. There are no jobs. So who is going to pay? Do you suggest burdening the taxpayers even more? Because that is the only way that the government could afford it. If people collect benefits then they should be prepared to contribute something to the benefit of the people who fund their benefits.

reply to post by Scorchio

Yes, there is something seriously amiss. But we the people allowed it to happen and we're still allowing it to happen. But government corruption isn't the issue here.

So instead of addressing some of the core problems that lie at the heart of the problem you prefer to condone the demonization and victimisation of the most vulnerable and needy in our society?

It is generally accepted that benefit fraud and errors cost this country approximately £1million per day.
It is generally accepted that tax evasion and tax avoidance costs this country approximately £260million per day.
Yet we concentrate on punishing the needy instead of targetting the wealthy and greedy.

If the government concentrated on enforcing existing laws then very few of these 'austerity cuts' would actually be necessary.
But that's ok?

Despite the predictable soundbites whenever tax evasion and avoidance hit the headlines absolutely nothing of importance has been done to tackle the issue yet still we are constantly inundated with a torrent of propaganda surrounding benefit recipients.
Now why would that be?

And let's not forget the reasons why there are no jobs and the economy is a mess - the incompetence and avarice of the politicians / bankers / industrialists - the very one's who are now moralising about the idleness of those who have suffered the most as a direct result of their policies.

Everyone is entitled to a fair days wage for a fair days work. But the work is not there. It doesn't exist. There are no jobs.

So what 'work' are these people on benefits going to do?

So who is going to pay? Do you suggest burdening the taxpayers even more? Because that is the only way that the government could afford it.

There are many ways the government and industry could stimulate the economy or find funding for genuine employment schemes - unfortunately this may not include generating large amounts of profits for private shareholders so this is very much verboten in the current climate.

If people collect benefits then they should be prepared to contribute something to the benefit of the people who fund their benefits.

Many people on benefits have spent years contributing into society.
Many people for various reasons are incapable of work.

Tax the rich. If tax is an issue.
But like I said, the rich are creaming off our money. Both the unemployed and the employed are treated like dirt by the rich.
Question is, do you condone the rich and the policies they force on us?

Christ people - stop looking for jobs and create your own. find someone with the land to start a garden, and raise farm animals if all else you'll all eat well.

best of all, no taxes

Ok, my job gets me out and about, mainly in London but it takes me all over. Now I deal with the very negative of Human behaviour, but I try not to let it skew my perpective of life and British society.

However, TPTB have engineered this country to the stage that it is at now. It is not just exclusive to this country, but across Europe.

Immigration IS a problem, in particular immigration from Asia, Africa and the Middle East. Many of you will say its not, but how many of you have real life experience of it and its consequences? In London, everything I deal with is due to immigrants, I'm not saying every crime is by an immigrant, but its unreal just what is going on, even in areas with a small percentage of immigrants. Now even with resources stretched, policing, NHS, school, soical housing, the government still allow this vast amount of immgration to remain. Why? It is because the whole purpose of immigration was to devalue wages and dillute nationalism. The former is backed up by the leaders of business and commerce, who always come out against any policy that restricts immigration.

Now the benefit system, there is no way they could've unleashed immigration on the scale done and devalued wages, without essentially bribing the indigenous British people. Not only does this subdue the native population, but it also gives zero incentive to achieve, which gives zero incentive to gain an education and thus dumbs down generation after generation.

I have said for years that the long term unemployed/never worked need to remember than nothing lasts forever. It was obvious that it was a trap, to bring them in and then enslave them, with no way out. I said this back in 2000 and was laughed off. I said immigration is an issue in the same year and was called a racist and a bigot. Now its all coming home and becoming very clear, I will be honest, it is too late.

The bottom line is we are engineered to head in a direction that will essentially create a Communist state, a two tier class system, hence the war on the working clas/ middle class. The action of this government and every government, to be hoenst, since the end of WW2, has lead to the creation of an underclass, the benefit class. These are not people who are simply out of work and looking for a job, these are people who not only have no motivation to get a job and no incentive, they have no ability. This then leads back to the reason for immigration on the level that we have seen.

There will no training, no appretice recruiting, no future for the indigenous British people. The idea that immigration will simply lead to an ethnically diverse British identity is a falacy, these people have no wish to ever become British, the money they earn gets sent back home, the children born here and brought up as a child of whatever country their parent/grandparent comes from, not even the language is learnt a lot of the time. This country is rapidly heading towards major conflict on a national scale as resources dwindle. If that's what you all want, keep voting Conservative, Labour and Lib Dems.

reply to post by rich76


Those of pensionable age that I know have no choice but to continue to work on because they just can't afford to retire. At the same time the government don't want you retiring early because to be frank, what is being spent is way beyond what is being gained in tax. The pensions have been wrecked, first the private pensions and then come the public sector pensions. Nobody should be working beyond 67, or to be honest, working beyond 60, when you consider that if you started work at 20 you would've been working for 40 years!

However, its just not working out like that. They blame it on us living longer, I blame it on the fact that a decrease in wage (in relation to continual rise in cost of living), which has been going on now since the turn of the century (at least) has lead to a decrease in income tax contributions. An increase in cheap immigrant labour, has lead to a decrease in income tax contributions. Every multi national company is paying far less tax than it should, again, a decrease in tax money received. On top of all this, foreign aid is still being handed out, in the billions. Britain is still getting itself involved in conflicts abroad that have nothing to do with us.

As stated, this is an ongoing war against the working and Middle classes, to reduece us all to the recently created benefit class. Eventually, we will all be that class, we will all be controlled, all on a standard basic income, all doing a variety of jobs for the same wage. It's exactly how Communism works, only many of us have been so brainwashed that we can't see it or refuse to believe that this is the future of Britain.

People can bury their heads in the sand, but it won't stop what they refuse to see from eventually biting their arses.

reply to post by SecretFace


I read your post with great interest, and though I think ultimately we see things very differently, I accept the validity of your experience, and the soundness of your logic.

Regarding immigration -- if there is one main point where we differ, I suspect it is that I see everyone as being equally deserving - regardless of geographical or national boundaries.
Having been made welcome in fifteen countries, and treated kindly, I feel it is appropriate for me to return the same respect and hospitality to anyone who travels here.

I simply do not feel I have any right to tell someone else where to go or what to do.
Or to stigmatise them by seeing them as "illegal immigrants," in order to justify treating them badly.
I accept that resources are unevenly divided in our society, and for me that makes it even more important to share what's left in solidarity.
If we accept that all are equally worthy, regardless of nationality, then there will be no need for resentment, which only makes us easy to lead by the nose.

Were we to stop fighting with each other, there would be great unease in certain quarters.

mistersmith.

reply to post by Freeborn



No, the government is irrelevant in this conversation. We all know what the government officials are and what they're doing. But the government is what it is and we all have to either live within its laws or collectively get off our arses and do something about it. And i can tell you now that the latter won't happen so our only choice is to make the best of it.

It annoys me to read about people on here who aren't prepared to work for less than £6 an hour. I'm in a management position and i work 45 hours per week at £5.50 an hour. Up until May, i was working 12 hours part-time in a second job at £5.16 an hour, just to make ends meet. Admittedly, i don't pay much tax on the full-time job but i got absolutely hammered at a high rate of tax on the part-time job.

You need to realise that this national average of 24k per year is a myth. It's boosted by a small number of people who earn millions per year. A more reasonable figure would probably be around the 14-15k mark. There are quite a few people i know who aren't earning £6 an hour and i only know 2 people who make over the alleged national average.

But people do it because it allows them a slightly better standard of life. And myself and these other employed people are being screwed over to pay taxes that we cannot afford which then pays for benefits for over 2 million unemployed. So what i'm saying to you is that i'm working a near 60 hour week, every week, and that allows me to pay for your benefits. And i'm still asking you the same question; What are you going to do for me? It's not George Osborn asking, not David Cameron. It's me asking you, as the person who pays for your benefits, what are you going to do for me?

reply to post by paraphi


I take your point.

However, there were vacancies in our area for people to work in agriculture. One of my oldest children was at college finishing a horticulture qualification and their whole class applied for agricultural vacancies. None were even interviewed and all the vacancies went to people from abroad.

Now, we constantly hear how lazy young brits are not willing to do these jobs.

What happens when they apply for these jobs? I would turn your attention to what happened to that horticulture class and then tell me if we aren't being lied to conned and deceived by 'posh' people with a different agenda.

I will admit there are without doubt a minority who choose to live a life on benefits but maybe these 'types' are unemployable and worth being paid off to stay out of the way if this is the choice they are making?

The vast majority of the unemployed are struggling and desperate to find a job and are unjustly painted as lazy when they are NOT!

reply to post by SecretFace


With all due respect I don't think you really understand the aims and thinking that is 'communism' - what you describe is something quite different.

For the record; I adhere to no 'ism or restrictive and dogmatic belief system - it's those sort of blinkered and narrow minded viewpoints that help to enable and sustain the status quo and the current system which is failing us.

reply to post by Scorchio

No, the government is irrelevant in this conversation.

The government and the system it represents is at the very heart and essence of this conversation.
It's successive governments social and economic policies that have created this mess.

You relate how you work hard for what is in reality is very little financial reward.
It shouldn't be like that - grafting so hard just to keep your head just above water.
You and everyone else in this country deserves better and should have better.

But by turning us against each other and victimising the most vulnerable and needy in society in deflects away from where our anger and frustration should be directed.

But people do it because it allows them a slightly better standard of life.

But the reality is it's a crap standard of life and well below that enjoyed by people of comparable nations etc.
Why is that?

And myself and these other employed people are being screwed over to pay taxes that we cannot afford which then pays for benefits for over 2 million unemployed.

And you are being well and truly shafted by those on top who don't play by the same rules as you and who pay less tax than you despite their enormous and obscene amounts of wealth - wealth which the majority of them do very little constructively with other than the occasional conscience easer.

I'd suggest that your anger may be best served at those who created and maintain this mess.

So what i'm saying to you is that i'm working a near 60 hour week, every week,....

And you should be rewarded a damn sight better than what you appear to be for such endeavour and shear hard graft.

....and that allows me to pay for your benefits.

Who said I'm on benefits?
You assume much!

And i'm still asking you the same question; What are you going to do for me?

What do you want me to do for you?

It's not George Osborn asking, not David Cameron. It's me asking you, as the person who pays for your benefits, what are you going to do for me?

Again, what benefits do you pay for me?

It's so sad to see what we've come to.

20 years ago, we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have No Cash, No Hope and No Jobs.

I hope Kevin Bacon doesn't die.

reply to post by Scorchio




You made me smile........no laugh!
Can't do without the bacon sarnies!!

Hello fellow Brits/Irish citizens and anyone else interested in the affairs of these Isles.

Sorry if this is a bit incoherent but I am spouting thoughts from the top of my head here.

Firstly ,the Tory Propaganda machine is in full flow. The number of people who work the system and the cost to the taxpayer is far less than the cost of the multi-national corporations who avoid paying taxes into the UK. The Tories like to keep quiet about that issue.

Look at how we the British people are split and arguing amongst ourselves. Conquer the divided is an old policy and it's working from what I can see. From my experience they have always been the party of unemployment and reductions in public service. When they are in power the jobless numbers rise, the cuts run deep and high level income tax falls.

So they then point the finger at the lazy jobless scroungers, the workshy, those who fake disability. Yes they are a problem. Well some of these people are actually unemployable as well. How do we manage them cleaning the streets etc? Do we cut off all benefits if they are unproductive? All of this costs money to do. I doubt Labour offer much of a real alternative to he honest.

The truth is most people want to work and earn their way in society but for 4 decades things have been changing across the globe and causing a lot of social problems in the UK.

- The 5 day (average 40 hours) working week has not changed for about a century. There is a good argument that you should build up your working hours over a number of years and then cut them back as you age. But no politician would dare change the current system as it's a vote loser. Few people in "full time" employment would want it either. Who is going to vote for a declining income in their later years? So there will only be a change when a real crisis happens.

- Why do we reward people for reproducing? I understand no one asks to be born and some benefits are necessary to help parent and families. But should the benefits system continue to assist people who continually who produce children without earning a working wage?

- The ever expanding Health Service. As science advances, people expect better treatment. It all costs money and people may well live longer but there is an underlying cost to our society. Those who would have died previously now live longer but some cannot work and need care. Harsh economics also dictate that longer living pensioners cost more in pensions and more in healthcare. Again these are subjects that no politician wants to tackle. There are no votes to be won here.

- The education system has for too long told young people they can be whatever they want to be. The reality is that doing a degree in many subjects is simply a waste of time and means you are burdened with the debt of a student loan and a will end up doing a job you never wanted because you chose an easy subject.

- Technology has replaced a lot of the old jobs from the first half of the 20th Century and reduced the need for human interaction. It has also meant that Raj from India can answer your telephone call about banking, insurance, utilities etc. at a much cheaper cost than Dave from Newcastle. He may not be able to speak native English in a regional accent from these parts and often fails to understand you as well when you are making a complaint but the corporations don't care as the cost to serve is far less.

- The political system. The problem is that there are a minority of marginal seats that decide every election. So a small minority of the country actually have a large say in who governs the nation. Politicians will target the floating voters with policies to sway them. Most of us are ultimately stuck living in constituencies that rarely change and it may well be pointless voting!

I haven't the answers to these problems. Many of them lie in topics that no one wants to speak out about and would certainly not win votes in an election. I guess that unless you are very rich, most people in the UK will have to face up the fact that we are becoming a society facing declining living standards whilst the rich elite simply don't care.

reply to post by mistersmith


That is the last thing that the powers who run this and other countries do not want; people to actually do sh** for themselves, without some sort of support from government.

The people you help out in Africa for example, people prefer to think that they are naturally unable to help themselves, and prone to violence, rape, and AIDS.

What if they were actually left with with adequate resources and freedom? The resources to produce their own food? Build their own infrastructure, make their own clothing? Enough money to flourish the whole area so the desire for someone to stick a gun in another's face, and take what they have, is minimized?

Plenty of ignorant dumb dumb's will still think that they will kill and rape each other.

Same with inner city neighborhoods in the U.S. Yeah, some sit on their ass and complain, demand things, and make their situations even worse than it already is, while others commit crime.

But send these individuals back in time, to an alternate reality, where they live in an area that is well kept and maintained, a strong education system, adequate facilities (libraries, hospitals, pharmacy), a flourishing economy, jobs to circulate money and flourish that economy, what then?

I guess they would still revert to complaining, and drug dealing. sheesh.

It's great someone sees the obvious problems with things, here.

reply to post by mistersmith


I agree with what you are saying and this would work, if we all thought the same, but unfortunately we do not.

In my opinion, immigration is a problem. If people who come here, integrated and adopted Britain as their home and so become British, I think that would be at least beneficial for Britain. However, the vast majority, in my experience, care not for Britain or the British and instead care only for what they can get out of the system to send back "home".

I deal with this every day and I tell you now, the ones who integrate the most are from India. The ones who never claim benefits are from Vietnam. That is about as far as a positive as I can get from immigration as a whole. Every single day I am greeted with whole host of illegal activity in and around London, the vast majority of which is undertaken by immigrants, whether legal or otherwise and to be honest it doesn't matter if they are legal or not, they will always get bail, Border Control don't want to know because they're snowed under and so they just vanish again, only to be probably picked up in Manchester or Liverpoool a month or so later.

It's difficult to paint a picture of the real negative that immigration is having and has had, you really have to experience it. I mean it doesn't stop there, if anyone has ever lived in Newham or Stratford or any community that has a majority immigrant population, it is hell, because they cluster within themselves still and you just feel like a foreigner. I don't blame the immigrants at all, this is all due to failed policies from government after government since the end of WW2.

Ten years ago I was the same as you, if people want to come here, as long as they work, then let them. Ten years later add what I have said and expeirenced to a shortage in social housing leading to waiting lists going in to years, an ever decreasing shortage of school place leading to an increase in class room sizes, GP waiting times going in to weeks, police - actually, that's for a whole new topic but lets just say a total mess unable to tackle crime on any scale, NHS totally failing and devoid of even basic patient care (again for a whole new topic). Wages have decreased, cost of living has increased, do I really need to go on?

The government cannot smash down on OUR OWN benefit claimants, while doing nothing to stop immigration that truly is detrimental to the future of this country. They enforce these laws on to our own, but never seem to clamp down on immigrants. For example, the most common activity and this is daily, is for an immigrant who has got a council flat/house to rent it out to Vietmanese to turn in to a drug factory, while they use the massive amount of money the Vietmanese hand over to go back home and then plead ignorance when the place gets turned over.

Honestly I could list everything that goes on in this country and it is nationwide because I'm in weekly contact with other cities and they're saying the same thing.

I wish it could be like how you described, but believe me, the vast majority of people who come here have no intention of equally sharing with anyone else, British or otherwise.

Thanks bigman88 and SecretFace for your replies -- and I notice one topic common to both is the inherent nature of humankind.
Are we basically good, or bad.
Given the right environment, will we behave cooperatively or competitively ?

I believe most crime arises from unfairness, ignorance and fear.
Most of us would steal to feed our children, if it were the only option.
Very few of us are evil just for the sake of it.
Even those who have done great harm were convinced they were doing the right thing.
I see more confusion and ignorance than actual mendacity.

I think it is vital that we refresh our faith in the inherent goodness of mankind when necessary.
It's not difficult.
Spend some time working in a charity that helps the homeless. Get to know people who give their lives to others.
Get to know the ones they help, and see how "There but for fortune ....."
Look out for those tiny but vital acts of kindness that interlace human interactions.
Create some, and watch the ripples.
Goodness is everywhere, just below the surface.
We find whatever we look for however, and that becomes our world.

mistersmith.










.

It's been like this for some 15 years in Australia - I use to work in the industry both as an employment consultant in one of the contracted private Job Network providers and then in the Federal Dept of Ed, Emp and Workplace Relations in the Employment cluster that manages these providers.

The difference here (maybe) is that there could be different numbers of hours required by jobseekers doing work-for-the-dole (WftD). Full-time WftD was 25 hours per week.

Even though I worked in the industry, I didn't like the idea too much, not the full-time version anyway.

Believe it or not, some job seekers actually like it because they had interesting activities, or just for the social opportunities it provided long term unemployed. Some activities involved painting and doing up cars, or others working on computers, or simply restoring a broken down shop or church.

The industry now has other requirements that jobseekers can CHOOSE from now such as doing training or courses or even volunteer work as an activity.

It's not just about 'slave labor' though that's how I felt the former conservative government (1996 to 2007) were using the system, but assisting with keeping jobseekers engaged and skilled, and building skills and experience.