To Salvage U.S., we need to break up the country into 5 Separate republics, No President

Carreau
reply to post by Tinkerpeach

 

No pay with no balanced budget, not no pay at all.

Ahhhh that is quite a big difference than.

That part sounds good until you factor in the issue of low pay local government employees having no say in determining any balanced budgets.

Usually those in higher offices are fairly wealthy and the impact on them receiving no pay will be minimal as opposed to the guy delivering your mail.

reply to post by Tinkerpeach


Right now we have lawyers and wealthy in political office because it pays for them to be there. Take away the power and lobbyists and promise of more wealth and the lawyers go away and stay in private practice. You will get normal people who actually want to help and fix things instead the the steady stream of d-bags looking to get over on the system.

Plus what do you think happens when the police assigned to protect politicians stop receiving their pay checks? The threat of a REAL government shut down as opposed to the fake one we have now will light a fire under their ass.

Carreau
You do not need or should divide the country into parts, you weaken everyone. You want to fix this country, all you have to do is go back to the beginning and run it the way it was meant.

Using the Constitution and modern technology will cure 90% of the problems. Return the Senate to being appointed by the individual State houses that are beholden to the States they actually represent and are able to be recalled by the States Governor when a Senator doesn't represent the States interest.

You want to stop the piggies (politicians) from feeding at the troughs (lobbyist) ? Keep them in their districts instead of sending all of them to one location where they can be manipulated. With teleconferencing and mobile devices there is no need for everyone to be in DC. The members of Congress STAY in their districts and the lobbyist lose their one location power hold.

No more PACs, public INDIVIDUAL contributions only to any election. No limits, but no hiding either.

Term Limits for everyone. 2 terms period no exceptions.

No more tax power. No more income tax. A national sales tax, that can only be raised or lowered by 2/3 vote of both houses, and remember they can be recalled a lot easier. No more corp tax loop holes, no more tax havens, no more rich perks. You want to eat tuna and Ramen noodles you pay a lot less than the guy who is ordering Kobe Beef.

No balanced budget, no pay for all government employees at any level. Local, State, Federal no exceptions. Plus no self raises, all pay to be determined by zip code cost of living at medium rate as their constituents.

Mandatory prison sentences for criminal acts while in office. Misdemeanor = 5 years each offense Felony = 10 years first offense, no exceptions.

Remove "Executive Orders" from President. Any use of military has to be voted by 2/3 of both houses unless in self defense of a first strike.



You follow these rules and problems will fix themselves.

The country is specifically already supposed to be divided amongst the 50 states to decentralise power from the top. Its been nullified by the feds, potus, congress, rouge alphabets, corp fascism.

Simple chane from united states to united zones.

All these changes you want to do, will only happen if you decentralize the whole system by getting enough power players to support this 5 zone idea. We dont have to do tariffs, etc....... keep everything as it is, but split it up 5 ways.

Regardless, if U.S. collapses, which history shows all powers eventually do, then the country will end up split up anyway, with foreign powers invading to take control of the different pieces. That's why its better to split it up now whie there is still some semblance an order, then to allow it to happen when the collapse happens

reply to post by dominicus


You didn't address any of the points I made in my post so you either didn't read them, didn't understand them or chose to ignore them; either way I wasted my time in this thread.

Carreau
reply to post by Tinkerpeach

 

Right now we have lawyers and wealthy in political office because it pays for them to be there. Take away the power and lobbyists and promise of more wealth and the lawyers go away and stay in private practice. You will get normal people who actually want to help and fix things instead the the steady stream of d-bags looking to get over on the system.

Plus what do you think happens when the police assigned to protect politicians stop receiving their pay checks? The threat of a REAL government shut down as opposed to the fake one we have now will light a fire under their ass.

edit on 29-9-2013 by Carreau because: (no reason given)

Actually you have wealthy people in office because they usually have the access to funds and the time to spend running campaigns. Not sure if you know how lobbying works but people are not greeted at the front door with guys holding bags of money and usually only the top people in office are lobbied as that is where you get the most results.

Some junior congressman starting his first term probably couldn't get in touch with a lobbyist if he wanted to. Harry Reid however probably has them stacked outside his door.

reply to post by Tinkerpeach


I already addressed that problem with term limits, and I am done with this thread.

Carreau
reply to post by Tinkerpeach

 

I already addressed that problem with term limits, and I am done with this thread.

Term limits solves absolutely nothing.

Do you think lobbyists cannot lobby new people coming into office or something? All you do with term limits is remove people's choice of who they want to represent them.

muse7
We need to get rid of Congress

Both Senate and the House must go, too much partisanship...too little progress, things are too stagnant. A lot more things would get accomplished if the President had more power to make decisions. We can keep the Supreme court

I don't know about getting rid of Congress totally, but I've always said the president should have more power. Here's my perfect world: Each presidential candidate has a very specific platform that they campaign on - a very specific laundry list of what they plan to do for the country. We all vote for the president whose platform we like the best. Whoever wins gets to do exactly as he/she proposed during the elections. No one should be able to stop them. The only reason you may need a congress is to make sure that the president doesn't go off on some wild tyrant rampage, and start to do stuff that they didn't campaign on. If they do that, congress steps in to reign him/her in, and force him/her to go back to the voter-approved platform, or face impeachment. Maybe have a shorter term, like 2 years, in case the platform was a huge mistake - but have more than just a 2-term limit, in case the platform turns out to be wonderful for the country. This gets rid of all the party nonsense, as well as all the lobbying crap.

reply to post by kaylaluv


The problem is that most of the things that president's deal with are new issues that arise after they have taken office.

When you vote for someone you are not only voting for things they have promised to do but their values and morals that will give you an idea of how they may respond to these unknown events.

If we do as you suggest then your going to have a lot of politicians running on no platform and no positions on issues but rather running on their personality and ability.

reply to post by Carreau

You do not need or should divide the country into parts, you weaken everyone.

The constitution is built on division to create checks and balances. Potus in check by congress, which is in check by senate, which is in check by states, Governors are in check by mayors, in check by alderman, etc.

The whole point of "50" Separate states, is to create checks and balance. Its not weakening. Its specifically designed to keep away Absolute Power in the hands of the few at the top, who have figure out how to circumvent all this anyway, hence we need a restart.

You want to fix this country, all you have to do is go back to the beginning and run it the way it was meant.

It's not going to happen unless:
A.)Civil War
B.)Complete Collapse due to_________ Economic collapse, WW III, etc.
C.) Unify an X Amount of power players around a specific central idea

The reason I bring up the 5 Zones idea, is because I've vetted it amongst some college professors at the school I used to go to. And they are for the most part in support of it.

On top of that, there is a Russian Professor who predicted over a decade ago that U.S would split up and collapse based on various analytical forecasts. He wasn't taken serious then, but I always kept in mind what he said, and then little by little started noticing trends that are headed that way:

He predicts that economic, financial and demographic trends will provoke a political and social crisis in the U.S. When the going gets tough, he says, wealthier states will withhold funds from the federal government and effectively secede from the union. Social unrest up to and including a civil war will follow. The U.S. will then split along ethnic lines, and foreign powers will move in.

Wall Street Journal Source Article

Using the Constitution and modern technology will cure 90% of the problems. Return the Senate to being appointed by the individual State houses that are beholden to the States they actually represent and are able to be recalled by the States Governor when a Senator doesn't represent the States interest.

That's cool, I'm all for that. Lets include in the 5 zones model. Because even if you do that, there is still too much centralized power with the Potus. Remember just a few weeks ago he was ready to go into Syria regardless of votes or what anyone had to say. All the Corps have to do, is put him and his inner circle in their pockets, and the country is screwed, just like how we exist under a Military Industrial Complex.

You want to stop the piggies (politicians) from feeding at the troughs (lobbyist) ? Keep them in their districts instead of sending all of them to one location where they can be manipulated. With teleconferencing and mobile devices there is no need for everyone to be in DC. The members of Congress STAY in their districts and the lobbyist lose their one location power hold.

This is doesn't matter. The lobbyists will then incorporate reps to go visit each district and manipulate each politician at their home base.

No more PACs, public INDIVIDUAL contributions only to any election. No limits, but no hiding either. Term Limits for everyone. 2 terms period no exceptions.

Incorporate into 5 Zones. There can never be too many levels of checks and balances.

No more tax power. No more income tax. A national sales tax, that can only be raised or lowered by 2/3 vote of both houses, and remember they can be recalled a lot easier. No more corp tax loop holes, no more tax havens, no more rich perks. You want to eat tuna and Ramen noodles you pay a lot less than the guy who is ordering Kobe Beef.

I'm with you.

The reason I didn't want to cover your points one by one initially, is because everyone has ideas on what we need to do. We need One major idea, which the 5 Zones is, get big power players, movers, and shakers to buy in, then incorporate all the smaller ideas/changes into it.

Unless there is a HUGE shake up, then its a down hill battle trying to put in all these changes one by one.

No balanced budget, no pay for all government employees at any level. Local, State, Federal no exceptions. Plus no self raises, all pay to be determined by zip code cost of living at medium rate as their constituents.

Finland has a rule that you pay fines based on your income. So a CEO who got caught speeding there, paid a 100k fine. While a single mother who got caught speeding, paid a $5 fine.

Mandatory prison sentences for criminal acts while in office. Misdemeanor = 5 years each offense Felony = 10 years first offense, no exceptions. Remove "Executive Orders" from President. Any use of military has to be voted by 2/3 of both houses unless in self defense of a first strike. You follow these rules and problems will fix themselves.

Like I said, you'll never be able to implement any of this unless its incorporated universally into the tenants of a third major party which gets on the same levels as the other 2. Or you get the backing of a major idea/shift, like 5 zones.

Like I said, its already a vetted idea amongst 4 college professors I am friends with.

No Potus, 5 separate republics which all work together.

IF we don;t do this by will, then when the inevitable collapse happens, then it will happen anyway as a side effect, but only then, the zones will be weak and can be taken over by foreign countries/interest groups. Russia would easily take back Alaska. Mexico would creep in to take AZ, NM. Canada would grab a few up north states.

We would only end up anyway with 3 zones in a collapse. Cali/OR/NV as one. TX/GA/TN/SC/NC as another. And NY/WA/NJ/PA as the third. Everything else will get taken over by others.

No Potus, 5 separate republics which all work together.

We tried this and it didn't work. We had separate republics with no President and it failed.

Why do you believe it would work all of a sudden?

Tinkerpeach

No Potus, 5 separate republics which all work together.

We tried this and it didn't work. We had separate republics with no President and it failed.

Why do you believe it would work all of a sudden?

We tried this when? How long ago? How many colonies?

dominicus

Tinkerpeach

No Potus, 5 separate republics which all work together.

We tried this and it didn't work. We had separate republics with no President and it failed.

Why do you believe it would work all of a sudden?

We tried this when? How long ago? How many colonies?

Before 1787 and it was signed by 12 of the 13 colonies, Rhode Island did not send representatives. Prior to the Constitution however we had exactly what the OP is describing and the reason we had to change it was because it was ineffective.

Dominicus
There is obviously too much Power at the top of the Pyramid. The Corporations have too much power with legal bribery, see Lobbyists. We are basically a Corporate Fascism in a Surveillance state where various alphabet agencies have gone completely rouge, do whatever they want, lie, and the Constitution has completely gone out the window.

Here's my fix:
5 different zones, each with 10 states. Each has its own republic, congress, senate, and zero Presidents.

What this would do, is decentralize the power from the rouge agencies, from the President, from the Corporate lobbyists. IF the country is to make a move on anything as one unit, it will require either a majority vote 3 out of 5, or all 5 zones have to agree.

We also need to bring in a third major party to be on the same level of influence, power, and number as both republicans and democrats. The 2 parties are basically the same and its just easier to manipulate the Government when all you have to do is Bribe 2 parties instead of 3. Just like with the 5 zone, if you have 3 major parties, the odd number in the equation brings in a better spread of power/influence/change.

I think this is the only way to salvage this country, and also that this is an inevitable move. If there ever happens to be a complete collapse of the U.S. and a Civil war within, then eventually the country will break up into Zones anyway, with no centralized positions of Power

THat is how its supposed to be, but with 50 "republics". The Civil War ended that, an now we all have to bow to the Federal Power.

Personally, if you guys would just let Texas loose, it would suit me just fine.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


You could not survive on your own.

Mexico would invade you.

Tinkerpeach

dominicus

Tinkerpeach

No Potus, 5 separate republics which all work together.

We tried this and it didn't work. We had separate republics with no President and it failed.

Why do you believe it would work all of a sudden?

We tried this when? How long ago? How many colonies?

Before 1787 and it was signed by 12 of the 13 colonies, Rhode Island did not send representatives. Prior to the Constitution however we had exactly what the OP is describing and the reason we had to change it was because it was ineffective.

Exactly my point. It was tried very early on, when political parties, powers, and tenants were yet to be established.

Trade depended on horse and carriage, the rest of the county was still not established boundary wise. We were toddlers then and everything was still roughly being tested out and experimental.

As opposed to today. Power grid, comm, boundaries, parties, ideals, trade, transport, etc, everything is fully established. Its apples and oranges.

Look if there are college professors who teach politics, that are supporting this idea, it gives it much more gusto than what an average joe thinks.

Already, Texas, Montana, Oregon, and Washington states have all discussed succeeding from the Union. People in states that are doing good with surplus budgets already want out anyway. Its already in the collective consciousness that this country is broken, divided, corrupt, etc.

So break it into 5 different pieces and start all over. Otherwise it will collapse inevitably anyway and then we'll be starting all over in chaos, civil war, foreign invasions, and desperation.

Tinkerpeach
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

You could not survive on your own.

Mexico would invade you.

And we may create an alliance with them.

But I am not so sure Mexico would have a chance, even if they could get a desire and cobble together any legitimate fighting forces. LOL

Mexican soldiers = glorified, sanctioned merceneries. They aren't in it to die, only to make their money.

juspassinthru

rickymouse
Why five and not for or six? How would we split up the nukes?

We could pile up all the nukes in one place. Then, we truck in our politicians (all of them), the judiciary, the Wall streeters, the banksters (all of them), and the military industrial complex.

Push the red button. Two birds with one stone.

Sort of like the Pheonix bursting into flames at the end of their life

reply to post by dominicus


None of those established things has any effect on why the Articles of Confederation did not work however. They did not fail because there were no parties established yet or because they rode horses instead of cars.

They failed because of a lack of a centralized power that could dictate the same policy to all the colonies, or states today.

If you remove that then you are going to have different states doing different things, especially in regards to commerce, and the country will not be able to function.

Here is an example, Arizona had passed a law saying that trains going through its state could only be a certain length because of their new safety standards. This meant that any train longer than their regulation had to stop, break into two, then move across the State as two separate trains which caused enormous delays to shipping throughout the West.

Because the federal government was in charge of commerce the Supreme Court ruled that Arizona had to change their law. You take commerce out of the feds hands and things like this will now be allowed.

It would be a complete mess.

reply to post by Tinkerpeach

They failed because of a lack of a centralized power that could dictate the same policy to all the colonies, or states today.

If you remove that then you are going to have different states doing different things, especially in regards to commerce, and the country will not be able to function.

Another example could be the NAFTA agreements that somehow allowed truck drivers from Mexico to drive on U.S. highways.

The trucks and the drivers apparently were below 'certified' safety standards.