"I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

reply to post by windword

Dear windword,

I can't express my gratitude sufficiently. Thank you for that glimpse into your heart. I treasure it as a great gift and honor.

But you're quite right, as attractive as this path is, I suppose we should get back to "righteousness."

A sculptor chips away everything that is not part of his vision, to reveal his goal. Would it make any sense to do that with the idea of righteousness? By that, I mean, what is "unrighteousness" in thought or deed? I get the impression that it may mean for you preventing someone from their own exploration of the Kingdom, but I'm really not convinced that's what you meant.

Or, perhaps, it is unrighteous to not follow the light? Or, to refuse to return to your Father's house? Or, to simply sit and not explore?

Forgive me, but it seems as though you're saying that the only wrong is to not explore, experience, everything.

But, I also realize that I'm probably taking you too literally. And as I let my mind explore the various possible meanings of your symbols I start drifting towards the idea that "Nothing" is everything. That everything is in our minds. I realize that that, too, is not your meaning.

There is so much I could say and ask. Thank you.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952

A sculptor chips away everything that is not part of his vision, to reveal his goal. Would it make any sense to do that with the idea of righteousness?

I think that is an excellent example of the quest for righteousness! The sculptor sees the divine, and chips at the superflulous to reveal it.

Forgive me, but it seems as though you're saying that the only wrong is to not explore, experience, everything.

Not at all. There is nothing wrong with going straight home, or choosing not to risk the journey at all, staying in a safe, risk free place. There's nothing wrong with choosing not to walk at all, maybe taking a train or plane home may be an option.

Some children may get lost, and send up a flare for help. Maybe God has "chipped" us, so that he can find us, when we fail to return home, when we've fallen unconscious after getting thumped on the head by a loose rock.

But, I do think that it's true that you can't inherit what you can't conquer.

"What you bind on earth...." and all.

sk0rpi0n
reply to post by Briles1207

 

Why does God allow you to forgive others but not yourself?

Self-forgiveness leads to justifying ones sins.
If such a concept existed, murderers would be forgiving themselves every time they kill. Hope that helped.

Another problem...

Some Christians, Protestants, they deny Jesus established means for the forgiveness of our mortal (serious, the loss of God in our soul) sins. Sacramental Confession. Read John 20:23. You have to hear someone's sins to forgive them.

"Who sins you shall forgive"....

reply to post by windword


Wow, great post ww! Really insightful and a great analogy. I think I got some inspiration from this post haha! Thanks. Wish I could star you more than once!

If we are all sinners, who are the righteous?...and what are they doing here?

Å99

reply to post by windword

Dear windword,

I wasn't quite able to understand the answer to a question I had. May I ask it again?

By that, I mean, what is "unrighteousness" in thought or deed? I get the impression that it may mean for you preventing someone from their own exploration of the Kingdom, but I'm really not convinced that's what you meant.

Or, perhaps, it is unrighteous to not follow the light? Or, to refuse to return to your Father's house? Or, to simply sit and not explore?

Would you tell me what "unrighteousness," "sin," or "evil" is for you? I'd appreciate some examples to make it easier to understand.

And as long as you're being that generous with me, what is the source of your understanding of unrighteousness? Might it be a spiritual book, insight from meditation, logic, or maybe a revelation?

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


Charles,

By that, I mean, what is "unrighteousness" in thought or deed?

That's easy! Everything that "isn't" righteous!

I believe that we are ALL born basically good. But, we have two bodies, a spiritual body and a physical body. The physical body, the animalistic part of man, is endowed with an instinctive will to survive. When there's is a perception that one's survival is being threatened, one's claws come out, or the preverbial tail is tucked and the legs run. "Fight or flight".

We are meant to tame our animal nature, with reason, trust and love, and bring it into alignment with our spiritual bodies. When we fail to assert our spiritual nature, the animal nature takes over. The duality of our two natures is the source of our troubles. Duality can only be reconciled by aligning both of our natures in harmony.

Although, I believe that we are created basically good, no one is born righteous. Righteousness, in my opinion, is learned and earned from taming our animalistic nature. You could relate this to the sculptor who chips away at everything that's not part of vision.

Righteousness is found in honoring our spiritual essence, as a reflection of the nature of God, and making sure our physical bodies, our actions, thoughts and deeds, are the same inside and outside.

If we allow our physical needs and fears to overrule the natural essence of our spiritual expression of love, we are not following a "righteous" path. If we temper our fears with reason and love, and find a way to make sure the body is fed what it needs, through trust and cooperation, without killing or harming our competition, we have done something righteous.

If other's allow their animal nature to take control, and one's house is under attack, there may be no way to protect the physical reality of ones existence without returned violence. In that case, it is righteous to take the life of another, and return the offending soul back to God. Because, both the body and soul, have a God given "right" to fight to survive.

Before we were born, It's my belief, we signed a contract, understanding that the life we own, requires death. Life devours life on planet Earth. That's how it perpetuates. Life and death are part of the divine mechanism of physical existence on planet Earth. We enter knowing we willdie, and that death is what will keep us alive. Sick huh? But unfortunately, "thems the rules."

And as long as you're being that generous with me, what is the source of your understanding of unrighteousness? Might it be a spiritual book, insight from meditation, logic, or maybe a revelation?

I grew up in a "God fearing" "bible thumping" environment. I bought it hook, line and sinker. As a child I was avid in my prayers for enlightenment and prayed for the gifts of the Holy Spirit, especially discernment. I was inspired and wanted to commune with angels, like Jesus did, and have visionary experiences like Ezekiel. But I couldn't reconcile my inner feeling on God, with that what my pastors, parents and others were telling me. So I abandoned everything, and went on my own "vision quest".

That's when I met God. In a quite moment, while alone with my admiration of a sunset on a Maui beach, I heard it, the "voice of God". It was more familiar than the sound of crashing waves, and more familiar that my own heart beat. As I tried to examine it, and listen to exactly what it was saying, it faded. In anguish, I called to it not to leave. That's when the voice told me, in no uncertain terms, "I'm not the one leaving, you are."

Ever since then, I have tried to hear it again. I haven't. But, I have felt the presence, many times, and I have been blessed with dreams and waking visions. Many times, in my dreams,I have been visited, by an old man in a long white robe, who has taught me, in a private classroom setting, of the nature of creative thought and the working of healing and attraction.

It's these dreams, visions and private revelations that inform me. Hope that helps.

reply to post by windword

Dear windword,

I've tried, honestly I have. I appreciate the beauty in your posts and the insight you gave me with your story, but I guess I'm just a plodder. There is only so much walking in the clouds I can do before I start looking for some solid ground.

So allow a plodder's question, please.

Is acting in love righteousness, and not acting in love unrighteousness? Does the Prince get to marry the butterfly Princess regardless of his behavior? Is wanting to kill dragons and evil wizards love, or is it the animal nature?

Seriously, I am trying.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952

Is acting in love righteousness, and not acting in love unrighteousness?

Righteousness is a goal. Love is a way to achieve righteousness, but not the only way. In the physical body, love is an emotion, often fueled by hormones or dopamine. Spiritual love is a state of being.

If "righteousness" is conquering the mountain, forgive me for putting your head in the clouds again, then the top of the mountain is the goal. Everywhere that's NOT the top of the mountain, but somewhere else, doesn't equate "unrighteousness".

You're looking at righteousness as duality, where one is either righteous or not. I look at righteousness as goal that can be met, but must be maintained. When we get to the top of the mountain, that we wanted to climb because of our own self challenge, not because the father required it, we see from there that there are many more, even higher mountains in the kingdom.

Does the Prince get to marry the butterfly Princess regardless of his behavior

The prince will always get the butterfly, because he needs her to resolve his inner conflict and calm his animal nature.

Is wanting to kill dragons and evil wizards love, or is it the animal nature?

As long as our inner conflict remains unresolved, we will summon dragons and evil wizards to act out our struggle to tame the animal spirit. As soon as we realize that we don't need to fight to justify our existence, we can learn to conquer and discover the magic of our environment, the kingdom.

Instead of building bombs to kill the perceived dragons and evil wizards, we can be free to find energy solutions for heat and comfort, find cures to hunger and disease, etc.

Oh, the things we could do if we could only stop fighting.



PS: Thanks for reading the story!

Your left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing is righteousness.Any effort to self "qualify" righteousness automatically disqualifies it because it is only admiring itself in the mirror of self righteousness.In other words anyone who believes they are righteous isn't at all.

Yahoshua clearly stated no one is righteous ...only God is.When Yahoshua was asked by the rich young man how to "inherit" everlasting life(enter the Kingdom of God) he didn't give him a method he corrected him on a false assumption.

No one is born righteous(perfect) and no one can make themselves perfect by self help or religion or spirituality or philosophy or philanthropy or...any method.It's all vain and futile when pursed as righteousness.That is the vanity of vanities Solomon spoke of.

Yahoshua clearly stated he called only those that needed healing...Everyone...To be "freed from bondage" (forgiven) of self righteousness(religion). Then the left hand won't know(or care) what the "right" hand is doing.

Righteousness is imbued on whom God wills to with no consent OR awareness by the receiver because it is self defeating.God is calling everyone because everyone is unrighteous.It's the nature of ALL mankind that God is freeing them from bondage.

FUNNY ... the OP just said this on another thread ...

sk0rpi0n
op seems to think whatever he has learned during his few years as a muslim trumps the collective knowledge of Islamic scholarahip over 1400 years.

The OP seems to think whatever he has learned during his few years of reading the bible (without an open mind and with the intent to discredit it) trumps the collective knowledge of Christian scholarship over 2,000 years. BUT ... that Islamic scholarship of 1400 years should trump an individuals interpretation of the Qu'ran. Which is it going to be, skorpion??

reply to post by windword

Dear windword,

I've been thinking about your most recent post for a few days. I have a question which I've been reluctant to ask because it seems excessively simple and childish. Remembering your patience with me, I've decided to ask anyway.

As long as our inner conflict remains unresolved, we will summon dragons and evil wizards to act out our struggle to tame the animal spirit. As soon as we realize that we don't need to fight to justify our existence, we can learn to conquer and discover the magic of our environment, the kingdom.

Instead of building bombs to kill the perceived dragons and evil wizards, we can be free to find energy solutions for heat and comfort, find cures to hunger and disease, etc.

Assume for a minute that an individual likes defeating others, taking their property, seducing their wives, eating non-stop, whatever. If you approached that individual and said, "If you could only conquer your animal spirit, you could work on finding cheap energy for the world."

Forgive me for suggesting that he would roar his head off, either in laughter or anger. What, then, is the reward for the individual which justifies the sacrifice of his animal spirit? (Ok, or the subjugation of his animal spirit, or however it's termed.) Eternal life? He doesn't believe in that Heaven and Hell stuff, the Bible is fake. Perhaps happiness on earth? But, he's happy now. What can be offered to the individual?

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952

Assume for a minute that an individual likes defeating others, taking their property, seducing their wives, eating non-stop, whatever. If you approached that individual and said, "If you could only conquer your animal spirit, you could work on finding cheap energy for the world."

Charles,

I believe that all people are essentially good. We are wired for play and we like to "win". It's part of our physical and spiritual evolution. Little children like to wrestle, play chase, good guys vs bad guys, war games, etc.

We don't tell a toddler, if you can put these puzzle pieces together, you can do calculus and build rockets! Although, solving puzzles is natural progression of learning.

Forgive me for suggesting that he would roar his head off, either in laughter or anger. What, then, is the reward for the individual which justifies the sacrifice of his animal spirit? (Ok, or the subjugation of his animal spirit, or however it's termed.) Eternal life? He doesn't believe in that Heaven and Hell stuff, the Bible is fake. Perhaps happiness on earth? But, he's happy now. What can be offered to the individual?

We don't need to "sacrifice" our animal spirit to God. We need to tame and domesticate our animal spirit to be a "help mate" for the spirit to successfully interact with the physical world.

Eternal life isn't a reward, it's a reality. Humans aren't spiritual mature enough to embrace an eternal consciousness, we still need find nourishment to grow, and we need sleep and we need to dream. Time is both a gift and a curse of the physical world.

At the end of a school year, a student either passes the grade or is held back to repeat the grade. Moving forward a grade isn't a reward, it's a necessity.

Death is a rest and a sleep for the soul. It provide a respite and it energizes the soul so that it can rise in a "new morning" with a fresh start for a new day. Renewed by the dreams that death provides, we move forward a grade and follow the curriculum of the "new year".

Some souls don't sleep well, and are plagued with nightmare of fighting the demons of their own design. When they awake, they aren't refreshed, and without a clear mind, they repeat the same mistakes of the previous "year". But, I believe in a loving God, and that all souls are basically good and are ultimately geared to do good. So, every new life is an opportunity to get past that lesson that was failed in the previous "school year".

I'm not sure that I've explained my viewpoint all that well. But, I do hope I've provided at least a glimpse into my philosophy of the spirit and the physical "marriage" of the soul and body during the experience of life on planet Earth.

reply to post by windword

Dear windword,

While this may sound fulsome, I mean it sincerely and honestly. You have presented your philosophy with a beauty and grace I could never hope to match. You've thought it through and are comfortable with it, something I wish every one would do with their beliefs.

You've put a lot of effort into explaining things to me and the ATS community, and I appreciate it immensely.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


Thanks Charles,

Whether you take or leave my philosophy, you have been a lovely student!

windword
I think that the OP's agenda is to provoke a discussion about the theology of righteousness.

The OP finally admitted his agenda here . It's something that has been very obvious. He isn't having a nice discussion, he hopes his limited knowledge will make Christians leave Christianity because he wants it to FAIL. That's why he's not paying attention to information that is provided when it runs counter to his agenda. That makes these threads not a discussion, but just a one way soap box for the OP.

Christianity is on the verge of collapse, because according to the links YOU provided, less than half of the christian population believe their own bibles. It isn't my fault.............................................................................................As for threads being my soap box... I always provide proper grounds for discussion. In this case, I am confronting the popular christian notion that ''all are sinners'', by using JESUS' words that he came to save the sinners and NOT the righteous. If Jesus and the Bible distinguishes the sinners from the righteous... Then the christian doctrine that all people are sinners, is patently false.

sk0rpi0n
Christianity is on the verge of collapse, because according to the links YOU provided, less than half of the christian population believe their own bibles. It isn't my fault.............................................................................................As for threads being my soap box... I always provide proper grounds for discussion. In this case, I am confronting the popular christian notion that ''all are sinners'', by using JESUS' words that he came to save the sinners and NOT the righteous. If Jesus and the Bible distinguishes the sinners from the righteous... Then the christian doctrine that all people are sinners, is patently false.

Herniated notions indeed...a cul-de-sac is a cul-de-sac...the righteous/sinners palaver, albeit a necessary element in a badly constructed good & evil engine, is like the appendix that just sits in a completed system without explanation of its true purpose or function...so, the function is made-up to justify its presence...christianity maintains to know its function regardless of its herniated nature.

Å99