Truth Belief and Knowledge

No not a Jane Austen novel, something I've been thinking long and hard about for a few years now as I get older. It struck me some time ago that quite possibly there is no real "truth" for every person's truth appears to be totally subjective and, in many cases, based on belief without actual knowledge.

To explain further, I'm going to take some subjects that are sensitive or downright ridiculous and see if I can show that we do not have any actual knowledge of any of these subjects and therefore the "truth" is only based on your own perception or belief. Sounds odd I know

9/11 - I have no knowledge that this event happened. I know what I have read, what I have seen online, on tv and newsreports and various other areas, I have seen photographs, read reports and various theories, yet I do not have any actual knowledge. All I have, is other people's knowledge, beliefs, perceptions and theories and all they have is exactly the same...other peoples knowledge beliefs perceptions and theories. Before you shoot me down in flames, I will explain further. Let's take a witness on the street on that day. He/she knows something has happened, he/she hears noise, explosion, see fire, dust,smoke, they describe what they see....its brief and to the point...they can only state what they actually saw (but even that is down to perception). However, over time that brief description becomes longer and more detailed due to the influx of more information from other people. Initially they describe what they think is an explosion, later they state quite categorically it was a bomb....even though they have no actual factual knowledge of it being so. Initially they make no mention of planes, later they will state planes are involved. Now that person will most definitely believe what they are saying is true and therefore the truth. We humans have a tendency to try and make sense of everything even based on the minimum of information, the brain and consciousness will still try and piece things together in a "logical" way, to make order out of chaos.

That witness however, has absolutely no actual knowledge of what happened. They saw bits and pieces of a larger picture, put it together then over the days months years, developed their own version of the "truth" which they wholeheartedly believe based on other peoples "knowledge". And that's the point...belief!

So the crux of the matter is, even if a person was actually at 9/11, there is no way of knowing the truth. You can only ever see it your way mixed with your beliefs,emotions and your perceptions and therefore any alleged truth is flawed. The only knowledge of 9/11 that any of us have is what is given to us by others and that knowledge usually comes from others and from others and from others....ad infinitum. Firefighters will have a different truth to the witness on the street, the janitor in the basement a different truth from the firefighters etc and each and everyone of them believing it to be true.

As folk on the ground as it were, we do not have access to such knowledge regarding 9/11 we don't have the facilities funding or power to get such knowledge first hand, even if we did, could it ever be said that knowledge was actually first hand? After all, someone somewhere had to write it down or record it for us to find it, so where did that person get it from? How could we ever be sure that the knowledge we found and received was true? And not doctored by yet another person higher up? How could that person higher up ever know that what he/she was told as truth was actually the truth? We only ever have what we are told and I believe there are very very few people in the world that know the "truth".

I may be making this overly complicated but what do I know? In fact, what do any of us actually know

Sandy Hook another example of complete lack of knowledge but plenty of emotional belief. It could be said that humans are flawed insofar as whatever we see hear touch feel can be influenced by emotions and of course this is something that has been played on an manipulated by humans since we were created, for our own ends. Governments, religions, the girl next door all use emotion to get their own way

The death of children is highly emotive and as such, we automatically go into defensive mode when such subjects are tackled. Myself however, I say again, I have no knowledge of this event except for that which I have been told. But what if I was a parent of a murdered child at the school? What knowledge would I have in order to make sense of something I believe to be senseless? Well, I arrive after the event, so no knowledge of the actual event as it happened, I cannot see my child so no knowledge of whether he/she is alive or dead, I see police and fire engines so know something has happened but I still don't know what. All I have to go on as that parent is what I am told has happened. I do not know Adam Lanza shot my child, I do not know anything other than what other people at that scene tell me. So without witnessing the event I know nothing and have to rely on others to fill the void of senselessness with information and truths. Someone has posted on another thread that they have seen the graves so they know that it did happen. I beg to differ without being offensive, but that is the limit of your knowledge. Seeing graves does not equate to "it did happen" and it certainly doesn't equate to "it happened exactly as we were told it happened". That persons knowledge is limited only to seeing the graves (emotional) and to what they have since been told/heard (speculative) and as a result, their minds have done the 2+2 and made sense of a senseless situation but in reality they have absolutely no true knowledge of the event simply their own belief of what happened.

I see so often on here and elsewhere bold statements such as
"aliens don't exist" or "aliens exist and we are their slaves" but yet these people have absolutely no knowledge, just belief and yet people spout alleged facts as if they were gospel truths (a paradox in itself!) and get very upset when challenged, not because its not true but because it challenges their belief system

There is a fantastic thread running at the moment regarding Elvis being alive. Great reading and in places definitely convincing, however, all the "evidence" or "proof" is based again on other peoples perceptions e.g. "I have seen a photograph with Elvis in the window of Graceland"....they believe it to be Elvis but they have absolutely no knowledge of it so being. They believe it because it fits in with their belief system. They believe it because many many others do so it must be true. The person writing the thread has no direct knowledge of the events, each individual concerned with the event only has their own emotional version of the event. Not one person was actually present at the exact time of Elvis' death so not one person can factually state with full knowledge what happened.

To sum up, can it really be said that there is ever any new knowledge? Is it ever possible for the man on the street to actually obtain that knowledge? And is there any actual objective truth? As we understand the word truth?

Its not nice knowing that you actually know nothing!

Makes you wonder why people bother saying things in the first place. Sometimes it's just best to have a real face to face chat with someone.

reply to post by phyllida


The truth exists indeed, but you are right. Most everyone, if they are relying solely on their senses and the words of everyone else, will not come to know the full truth about events. But what you have posted here IS truth. This is proof that truth exists, and that knowledge exists, and that wisdom exists.

Anytime I ever hear anyone tell me a story from the news, or some fearful thing and then they try to say that, "This is why I don't think you should do this" or whatever; I will say, "Hearsay. Learn from it, don't believe it. There is a difference." However, there is a spirit of truth that guides us, and this can be relied upon. It's a matter of being humble enough, like yourself, to learn to see what the truth is and what it is not.

As I say all the time, "the paper never reflects reality accurately."

Good job.

But there are reasons to act upon things. There is a truth; it is just deeper, and usually more generalized. There is a truth to be told about 9/11 and Sandyhook. Both were used to generate massive amounts of feeling, which causes people to buy (hence the never-ending coverage of events well after the events have taken place; it's ad scheme). And continually keeping these things in the mind of people puts them in a position to agree upon or to disagree upon, in accordance with another's wishes, certain actions or events that are posed as an order of necessity.

And there are other truths to be told. However, we cannot discount what any true witnesses experienced. For what happened to them was very real. But the first question is always, "WHY?"; therefore, adding credence to the fact that they understand not everything around them.

reply to post by taoistguy


Ironically, you typed your response online.

But as well, learning to have conversations online is an excellent way of honing your truth skills without having to rely on your sense; but it builds up your intuition and your feeling abilities, even if those are not necessarily primary to you. To think and to sense is obvious in the physical world. The others are not. It's almost like telepathy with a physical electrical conduit.

And then when you go and have direct contact with people, you have a greater understanding about what is really going on in that apparently idle mind of theirs (apparent because the text is not written on their foreheads). Then you will come to a greater understanding concerning the truth all around you.

If you will remember to do this thing when you are out and about.

reply to post by phyllida


There's a Greek philosopher that says true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing. Socrates said that. And considering that the average human is capable of detecting 1% of the 0.0000000000000000000000001% of the universe that is observable to us, I'd say that's a pretty accurate statement.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Yay then I count myself honoured to be a true philosopher as after rigorous testing I know nothing except my name and date of birth and to be honest I don't have proof of my date of birth just what my parents told me even though I was there at the time!

More seriously though it is odd and worrying the amount we think we know as opposed to what we actually know. Whilst we may think that any knowledge we gain is "new" it seems that it is only new to the person receiving it.

Inventions are an example of such a conundrum, as to me, I think all inventions despite people believing them to be new, simply come from previous inventions/knowledge for example the automobile couldn't have been invented without the combustion engine or the wheel, therefore the actual "knowledge" as it were of the automobile wasn't exactly new in a sense, it was already there just waiting to be put together!! Everything comes from something therefore nothing could really be said to be "new". Or am I just rambling?

Just something I find perplexing and possibly with a deeper meaning than we see or think

reply to post by phyllida


Ah, you're talking about application. Everything is one and just their applications are different. Or varied.

reply to post by taoistguy


Relating to inventions you mean? I suppose I can see that yup..good point which again I think illustrates what I am trying to say that there is no new knowledge only new to those that didn't know it before. So if there is now new knowledge....hmmm...so everything is already known but perhaps not discovered?

Think my head is exploding!

reply to post by phyllida


Well, think about language: the use of language takes a concept and limits its applications in the same way putting a flower in a cardboard box stifles the plant. Our imagination cannot expand if we cannot communicate it, and we cannot communicate it if our language becomes engraved in stone. Our language will not evolve to reflect our understanding of the concepts being expressed.

So can there be an absolute truth? Or is perception our truth...in truth? lol

If the truth came out about 9/11, Sandy Hook, the Aurora Shooting and other such incidents, would we recognise it as the truth and everyone feel and think the same? Or once again would our own individual perceptions colour that truth thereby negating it? Let's say some Government official held a press conference to reveal the truth about sandy hook, that person would, no doubt, have had a speech written for him, by someone who was told the truth...so who told that person who told the speech writer? Its a bit like chinese whispers to my mind plus in the reading of the truth speech, inflection and tone of voice can alter meaning thereby to some this changes what they are hearing. If there were such a thing as absolute truth, then surely all people would know it and believe it because it was absolute and therefore unchallengeable?

When people state that they are seeking the absolute truth, with the input from emotion and perception how would it be known that they'd found it? Or would it merely be about belief once again? They believe they have found the "truth" whatever it may be, the problem being of course that each person's beliefs are slightly different from the next person.

Its like watching 20 news reports of the same incident by different reporters, all will have a different slant on the story but all will swear its the truth....as they see it

reply to post by phyllida


Those that are actively involved in life and death situations, know the reality and act. A good example is the movie, Papillon. www.imdb.com... Though one could use many others.

Folks that ponder to much on their predicament can also get lost in their own head. Better to pinch ones self, an act, to the best of ones ability.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by phyllida

 

There's a Greek philosopher that says true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing. Socrates said that. And considering that the average human is capable of detecting 1% of the 0.0000000000000000000000001% of the universe that is observable to us, I'd say that's a pretty accurate statement.

Hmmmm, perhaps Socrates was speaking of a different nothing that we are... capable of knowing. hence to know you know nothing.

Just a thought.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Wifibrains

AfterInfinity
reply to post by phyllida

 

There's a Greek philosopher that says true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing. Socrates said that. And considering that the average human is capable of detecting 1% of the 0.0000000000000000000000001% of the universe that is observable to us, I'd say that's a pretty accurate statement.

Hmmmm, perhaps Socrates was speaking of a different nothing that we are... capable of knowing. hence to know you know nothing.

Just a thought.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

That's all crap. Socrates...etc...

I myself have been in many fixes. You (your ID) know damn well its real. You can either act or die.

RUFFREADY
reply to post by phyllida

 

Those that are actively involved in life and death situations, know the reality and act. A good example is the movie, Papillon. www.imdb.com... Though one could use many others.

Folks that ponder to much on their predicament can also get lost in their own head. Better to pinch ones self, an act, to the best of ones ability.

edit on 23-9-2013 by RUFFREADY because: (no reason given)

True dat, couple should pinch real hard lol

The Bot

reply to post by dlbott


Ha Ha! I made that up! It was easy. I was there...it was the real deal..do or die. Jeezzee, I'm not that smart.. and I haven't read any Jane Ayers books, but (oh, I do read a lot) the folks that have "been there", know what I'm talking about. Hurdy Gurdy Man...Ruff

You're talking about acting but I'm talking of truth. When we act on something we normally act intuitively instinctively or emotionally or simply based on our belief of what's true which is seems if fundamentally flawed in the first place thereby the act must also be flawed

reply to post by phyllida


Well, I tried. lol!

I've been around the world and truth is found mostly in ones head I guess. Knowledge is the process of living on this ball in space.

I do like your thread! It made me think. You should post more often. I might learn a thing or two.

Ruff