The Crisis at Fukushima's Unit 4 Demands a Global Take-Over

reply to post by lakesidepark


I am not a "Japanese Person"!

reply to post by Human0815


Wow, you are living in a racial fantasy land.
Keep your head berried and in the 1950's things
will work out perfectly.......


sad in this day and age this crap continues.

reply to post by Human0815


My mistake. I assumed you were japanese.

But I am quite sure you are human. And so am I.
So this is our problem, all of us.

You did choose to defend the position of the Japanese that they alone should handle this problem, and you have prominently minimized the problem consistently throughout your postings from the beginning.

And in the beginning your postings did serve a good purpose as others tended to exaggerate the severity of the current situation. You kept a cool head and gave important perspective from close to the site of the disaster.

However, after two years, and at the point when the riskiest part of this recovery begins, your postings are giving more of a perspective of denial, when even TEPCO has admitted they have lost control of the situation.

The rest of the world is beginning to see the magnitude of this slow-motion catastrophe. Some examples:
Errors Cast Doubt on Japan’s Cleanup of Nuclear Accident Site
Endless Fukushima catastrophe: 2020 Olympics under contamination threat
Dangerous operation planned for Fukushima plant
Fukushima nuclear power plant. The nuclear disaster that keeps on giving.
Dangers in removing Fukushima’s spent nuclear fuel rods
Humankind’s Most Dangerous Moment: Fukushima Fuel Pool at Unit 4. “This is an Issue of Human Survival.”
Reactor #4 Spent Fuel Pool
Abe at Ground Zero: the consequences of inaction at Fukushima Daiichi

I fear its not enough attention being paid to this. just seeing Japan's government focusing on winning a bid for the 2020 Olympics while this crisis remains unanswered speaks volumes on where the priorities of that government lie.

Not that the government here is any better. I fear the U.S. would ignore this too until it was too late. Just like Japan, too worried about damaging the economy if they treated this like some kind of crisis. Disgusting if you ask me.

It's past time for peoples of all of these governments to start demanding action on this crisis, and thats hard to do if only few of us are paying attention. To hell with the economy! This is the future of Earth. Too much time wasted, and very little time left before the area becomes so irradiated, and we lose total control, and then no solution is possible for another thousand years.

You are not a 'japanese person'. What a petty response that is to address this most important of topics. Are you a citizen of Japan? Can you have any influence on the actions of citizens there? If so, then you should be doing more than conplaining about how you are percieved on a message board!!!!!

reply to post by lakesidepark


my solution to this problem to paraphrase the cop from the diaster movie volcano why don't me just drop a montain on this sonubiscuit. seriously if we as a world come togther could we not smotherc this disaster if we poured enough cement micked with boron and graphite on top of it and yes i am talking a montain say enought to cove a square mile to between 500 to a thousand feat tall. would that not beenough to smother the reactors and contain the radiation from running off into pacific

this is not a Japanese problem this is a world problem, the japanese do not control the ground that quakes so their is no shame in asking the world to help it is everyones planet so we ALL SHOULD PITCH IN. yes i understand that you are a proud people and have existed as a country since ancient times but now is not a time for that now is a time to think of all our children

reply to post by proteus33


Yes.
And as it seems the world has committed to sending its best and brightest athletes to Tokyo in 2020, the world should be invited to help prepare for this. I hope the Games will go on.

But for that to happen, this next procedure to remove these spent fuel assemblies has to happen with no mishaps. If Japan can be successful in removing these assemblies, then Japan can consider what has to happen to bring the rest of this complex disaster under control.

Urgency is upon us, and luck has been with Japan that no quake or typhoon hasn't already toppled that pool. It is indeed the most daunting task that mankind has faced.

Damage has been done, and mankind will suffer for eons from the radioactivity already released, but at this point what has already happened does not rise to the level of doom that many speculated on in the early days of the crisis. I'm sure the northern hemisphere, and especially the Pacific region, will suffer and is already beginning to suffer from what has already happened.

If the fuel is successfully removed from the #4 pool, there may be hope of removing the rest, and then devising a way to slow or stop the contamination of groundwater, and prevent it from becoming any worse. Life will suffer...but will somehow go on.

But if they fail...the worst of the doom that many speculated in the early days will come to pass. Failure is NOT an option here. With one mishap, the recovery stops. The efforts to cool the cores burning thru the bedrock stops. Control of the remainder of the thousands of spent cores will be lost. And then, life thru the northern hemisphere will be permanently damaged, and this will persist and eventually spread to every area of the planet.

We have not had this kind of threat of planetary irradiation since the days of the Cold War and the mutually-assured destruction threats of the U.S. and U.S.S.R., only not spread instantly by missles and bombs, but by the currents of the wind and water.

I will probably live the rest of a full lifespan. But that is only about 20-30 years. I fear for everyone else. If this does not go well, that will be about the lifespan of everyone else.

Unless you and your great-great-grandchildren have a good bunker complex and food / water supply where you can hide for another thousand years, you will leave this earth shortly after me, and your progeny will never come to be.

This is why this procedure coming in November, and all that must happen after that, is important to us all, and cannot be left to TEPCO alone, or even just to Japan alone.

This thread is a good example of group psychosis.

There's not a chance this is remotely close to an ELE.

I'm not in denial I'm measuring the scale of the event.

Now a global EMP taking out the infrastructure would cause 400+ reactors to go into meltdown. That's maybe enough for an ELE.

Whether Joe on the street knows about this really isn't the point. Some public outcry won't hurt but the public is routinely ignored.

Those in nuclear research, nuclear for profit and certain governments are aware, or should be, of the situation and risks. These are the groups that will have to fix it.

I have to wonder what is the game that is being played in this one. Is it honor or money.

reply to post by lakesidepark


I do not defend the Position of Japan,
i wrote that it is Justified, two different things!

And yes, imo. the Fukushima Crisis is not a Extinction Level Event
at this Time, there is a lot of Potencial but at the moment it is
just a Melt-Down of three Reactor Cores and i really hope that it
will not expand in to a Global Catastrophe!

Building Nr.4 was reinforced in the Months after 3/11, whole Floors
got filled up with Concrete, we see new Frames inside and the Static
got improved a lot, i am here in Japan since more than 10 Years and
i never heard that a Industrial Building collapsed because of an Earthquake!

A Reactor is not a 08/15 (average) Building
but come with reinforced Walls,
alone the Spend Fuel Pool is coming with Walls thicker than 180Cm of
Steel Concrete, i really doubt that it could collapse!

The Fuel: Since the first Videos from the inside of the Pool:
Tepco April 2011:
Tepco & Friends created a Plan to remove the Fuel.

The first Rods was removed in August this Year:
Tepco, Fuel Nr.4
and the Rods looked healthy and un corroded.

They developed a Program for every single Box and i think the Problem
is much smaller than many of you think!

There are Ways to control a possible Re-Criticality,
from Nuclide absorbing Mats
until Boron and/or Nitrogen Injections.

I think this Scenario is well calculated and when the Fuel is out of the
Building i may can restart to live a normal Life with a healthy Sleep Pattern!

reply to post by Human0815


I have no understanding of nuclear fusion and whats happing in japan, why cant we just simply shut them down? our bury them isnt there an off button for these things? what did the russian do and how does fukushima scale to chernobyl, cant they used what the russain did or are the reactors too different?

webedoomed
This thread is a good example of group psychosis.

There's not a chance this is remotely close to an ELE.

I'm not in denial I'm measuring the scale of the event.

Now a global EMP taking out the infrastructure would cause 400+ reactors to go into meltdown. That's maybe enough for an ELE.

Absolute denial of the scale of the event by your own numbers. You responded but obviously did not read, just a knee-jerk psychosis on your own part based on your own denial of events. Call the doctor please.

I did not state this was currently an ELE event, but that it could be, if the spent fuel pool collapses and puts the contents of essentially 1400 reactors into meltdown (1400 cores = the spent contents of 1400 reactors). Then we lose the ability to control the spent contents of all the remaining cores (a total of approximately 11,000). And they will go into meltdown when the cooling water is gone after humans and machines can no longer get to them.

Does that equal an event of great magnitude according to the math YOU presented??? 11,000 cores = greater than 400 reactors. MUCH greater.

I hope human0815 is correct, and their plan works, and the danger of the spent fuel pool over the #4 reactor is abated. Then he and I can sleep bettter at nights.

I agree there is not much we can do as individuals, and we can only do so much even as a whole with this problem. My problem is that TEPCO has already proven they will lie to us, and the japanese government refuses to take over this operation from them. And neither are admitting the magnitude of the problem, so why should the world trust them now?

reply to post by ototheb85


In former Soviet Russia the Core exploded and the majority of the
Fuel got kicked out of the Containment, the rest started to burn
in a Graphite Fire for at least ten Days, only a tiny bit started to
melt through the Reactor Building!

In Fukushima we have 3 molten Cores but inside of their final
Containment, this molten Cores get cooled by the circulating Water.
When we have cooled it enough the Radiation inside get slow,
very slow until it nearly stops but this need a few Years,
ca. 7-15 Years!

When we reached this Point (alive) we can start to cut this Corium
and remove it, put it in a Cask and store it (somewhere)

In the case we stop this Cooling
the Cores start to produce a enormous Heat again,
we speak here about a Temp. that will melt everything known
to average Humans, it will get hotter than 2.700-3.000 Celsius
(ca. 10.000 Fahrenheit?)

It would be uncontrollable in a Process of Fission
and spitting out Radioactivity until eternity
(at least a few hundred Years)

reply to post by Human0815


Exactly where do you suggest that all of the cooling water which would be needed to cool these things over the next 7 - 15 years be stored? They can't contain the water that they have used over the past 2.something years and you are suggesting that they have the ability to store another three to 8 times that which is already in the Highly Engineered storage tanks which are currently leaking 1000's of tons of toxic water into the Pacific Ocean every day! But never mind the leaks they can always be "fixed" with Duct Tape! Great idea TEPCO!
You might, MIGHT, not be Japanese but you do seem to be the mouthpiece of the Toxic Effluence Production Company and if not the mouthpiece possibly a major shareholder?

reply to post by wiser3

Your preconceptions suck but this is your problem, not mine

I have Zero Problems to let the cleaned Water flow in to the Ocean,
i do not welcome it but when this is the only choice
what else could we do!
(The Kid was falling into the Well already at 3/11.....)

Tritium Leaks are normal for old nuclear Plants, we need to find
a Way how we handle the Working Plants first
before we try something in Fukushima!

You are welcome to provide your Solutions,
maybe they are good enough but this is highly doubtful

farmwars.info...LINK

New Discovery
We also might want to keep our eyes on this new discovery by Russian scientists:
Russian scientists in the Khibinsky Mountains in the Arctic Circle have made an important scientific discovery. They’ve found a new mineral which absorbs radiation.
It does not yet have an official name and is known only as number 27-4. It can absorb radioactivity from liquid nuclear waste.
“It can extract radioactive substances from any water-based solution and so has a very important practical significance,” said Yakov Pakhomovsky, the head of the Kolsky Research Institute.
After coming into contact with the mineral, radioactive water becomes completely safe. Had this mineral been available to physicists after the Chernobyl or Three Mile Island disasters, the consequences might have been very different, as both accidents resulted in contamination from radioactive water. (RT)

Don't know about the sources here, but this is interesting. Wondered if anyone knew anything more or had read anything about this?

I have posted my thoughts on this issue extensively, including the origins of the event and what I contend will happen, so I'll not rehash.

what I will say in regard to the awareness of the matter is this. back in the seventies there was a rash of so called scientists who did the rounds of tv, radio, print and so on shouting about the horror of the so called "china syndrome." Movies were made and protests were undertaken on the same topic through the 80's. These so called scientists warned that this remote possibility would be a major problem if it did happen.

For the last two and half years, TWO AND A HALF YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, we have had THREE, not one but THREE china syndromes. Where are the so called scientists? They seemed to actually be suggesting that there is no real issue, these idiots - really there are none more ignorant on the entire planet, seem to suggest that an endless supply of radio active waste dumping into the ocean is okay. One well known ATS authority on all suggested it was all okay because the radiation would sink the bottom of the ocean and the ocean is big. I'm stupefied by this, and I expect when said expert's family begins to die the horrible death like the rest of us I expect he'll be saying the same thing.

This is the part I find irreconcilable. How can these pocket protector jackasses actually think that this is reasonable? I have seen some, who's IQ is clearly less than a Macaque, say things like, "well the ocean will dilute it." Or, the inexplicable, "it's way less the the nuclear bombs we blew up." Are these men and woman really that stupid, or do they hate humanity that much? Or do they just need to make sure they have jobs?

I have come to the conclusion the scientists who are sitting on their hands over this are doing so because it really isn't a china syndrome, it is an Australia syndrome and the two are not the same.

I found this. Still looking for more information. Of course, it is likely you would then have to deal with material with absorbed radioactivity, but would be interesting to know, for instance, would it be any cooler, more stable and/or easier to deal with and store at that point....

reply to post by tetra50


It is highly interesting and i will look for it too,
but Fukushima got a Water Cleaning Facility which remove 99%
of all Nuclides, except Tritium
but Cesium, Plutonium or Strontium get cleaned up.

We know already a few Minerals who absorb Radiation,
Zeolite, Boron are just two but the Problem remain:
"What are we doing with this contaminated Minerals
after they done their Job and is this really less risky"!

And finally "Russian Today" is a really bad Hoax Station,
Non-Stop of Yellow Journalsim and we must be very careful
with their Stories and Headlines!

But Science is the only Way to solve our global Problems!



reply to post by crankyoldman


I understand your Anger and you will be more angry but i need to say it again:
there is no proof or evidence of a so called "China Syndrome",
or at least i do not saw any,
you should write: "in my Opinion (imo.) there is a China Syndrome"!

Well, I'm a foreigner living in Japan.

And I don't think any other country has the right to interfere in Japan's affairs. That's just how they roll.

Now I'm gonna finish this can of Yona Yona and go to bed. :-)

lakesidepark

Absolute denial of the scale of the event by your own numbers. You responded but obviously did not read, just a knee-jerk psychosis on your own part based on your own denial of events. Call the doctor please.

I beg to differ.

I did not state this was currently an ELE event, but that it could be, if the spent fuel pool collapses and puts the contents of essentially 1400 reactors into meltdown (1400 cores = the spent contents of 1400 reactors). Then we lose the ability to control the spent contents of all the remaining cores (a total of approximately 11,000). And they will go into meltdown when the cooling water is gone after humans and machines can no longer get to them.

This is 100% incorrect. It doesn't have a chance in hell of becoming an ELE no matter what happens. You simply haven't done the necessary work needed to understand these figures in the slightest.

First off, a fuel rod does not a reactor make. There are more than one type of reactors on site, oh and these reactors are different than the chernobyl reactor, so don't even think of comparing the two. Second, these fuel rods are SPENT!!

If you can't even get a grasp of the basics, please don't go around spouting off jargon that you pick up from some alt news sites which capitalize on instilling fear from misinformation.

In boiling water reactors (BWR), the fuel is similar to PWR fuel except that the bundles are "canned"; that is, there is a thin tube surrounding each bundle. This is primarily done to prevent local density variations from affecting neutronics and thermal hydraulics of the reactor core. In modern BWR fuel bundles, there are either 91, 92, or 96 fuel rods per assembly depending on the manufacturer. A range between 368 assemblies for the smallest and 800 assemblies for the largest U.S. BWR forms the reactor core. Each BWR fuel rod is back filled with helium to a pressure of about three atmospheres (300 kPa).

Link


Taking the low range for both figures, that would be 33,488 fuel rods per reactor core. So less than 1 additional reactor core is at risk from the combined fuel rods. Now you're trying to tell me that a half dozen reactors worth of radiation is going to potentially extinct our species? Cookoo!