Homosexuality And Christianity; I don't believe Jesus of the Bible would judge you harshly

reply to post by windword

Dear windword,

I really appreciate your posts. Thank you for your thoughtfulness and politeness.

I guess, that given what you've stated, that the church acknowledges both hetero and homosexual attraction as normal then, right? So, in the eyes of the church, gay sex is tantamount to adultery.

I'm not entirely clear on what you mean by normal. I think you're right, but I'm not 100%. Let me try a few other examples.

Science tells us that some groups of people lack certain enzymes which make them more susceptible to the effects of alcohol. Every group of people has its alcoholics. So, if a person discovers that drinking is a real problem for them, preventing them from being moderate, causing problems for themselves and others, he might decide he has to stay away from alcohol completely.

The same thing might be true for gambling. Some people are born with a susceptibility to behaviors that the Church tells them to avoid on pain of sin. I can put $5 in a slot machine twice a year, and never think about it again. I have a relative who was driven to bankruptcy because that was all she could think about. Her obligations to God and her fellow man were brushed aside by her passion.

All of us have things we know we have to avoid. How many threads have you and I walked away from because we knew that if we made one more post we would be figuratively (or perhaps literally) screaming obscenities at someone who was being particularly offensive or stupid? Dozens, at least. And on those rare occasions when we do let our frustration get the better of us, don't we apologize and resolve to do better?

Oh, as a small point, the Church sees gay sex as fornication, not adultery. I wasn't clear. To be adultery, one has to violate the marriage bonds, and the Church doesn't see that such bonds exist for a gay couple.

It's just too bad that God created some people who will never have to "right" to experience physical love, while he created some who do, in the churches eyes.

I can see that, and I sympathize. But just about everything that is good, can be turned into an evil if done in the wrong place or manner, or at the wrong time.

Can a sexually active young bachelor still receive the Eucharist? Can a divorced and remarried person receive the Eucharist? Can a married gay couple, albeit outside of the church, receive the Eucharist?

Well, of course, they do, all the time. Priests don't check up on people and carry a mental list of who is eligible and who isn't. If those people you mention have made a big fuss about it, either in the Church or in the community, the Priest really shouldn't offer them Communion.

Even though those people do take Communion without getting stopped by the Priest, it is still not authorized, and taking Communion under those circumstances is a sin, if they know about the Church's position on the matter.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by Tylerdurden1

Dear Tylerdurden1,

As you get to know me, you'll find that I don't always convey my meaning clearly. Sorry for that.

Wait, I thought the church didnt allow gay marriage. So if two gay people were to get married, they would be lumped more closely to stright people, therfore becoming just like everyone else?

The difficulty comes from the word "marriage." The Church doesn't allow a gay "Church marriage." The state allows a gay "State marriage." The Church's position is that sex outside of a "Church marriage" is wrong.

Hope that helps.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


Charles,

Your always so thoughtful and polite, even when we strongly disagree with one another, it's hard not to be polite in return. In answer to post, I'm going to change up the order of your response in my reply. I hope you don't mind.

Oh, as a small point, the Church sees gay sex as fornication, not adultery. I wasn't clear. To be adultery, one has to violate the marriage bonds, and the Church doesn't see that such bonds exist for a gay couple.

Can a sexually active young bachelor still receive the Eucharist? Can a divorced and remarried person receive the Eucharist? Can a married gay couple, albeit outside of the church, receive the Eucharist?

Well, of course, they do, all the time. Priests don't check up on people and carry a mental list of who is eligible and who isn't. If those people you mention have made a big fuss about it, either in the Church or in the community, the Priest really shouldn't offer them Communion.

So a monogamous gay couple, a remarried divorcee and a philandering frat boy all carry the same sin, fornication. Right?

It's just too bad that God created some people who will never have to "right" to experience physical love, while he created some who do, in the churches eyes.

I can see that, and I sympathize. But just about everything that is good, can be turned into an evil if done in the wrong place or manner, or at the wrong time.

Science tells us that some groups of people lack certain enzymes which make them more susceptible to the effects of alcohol. Every group of people has its alcoholics. So, if a person discovers that drinking is a real problem for them, preventing them from being moderate, causing problems for themselves and others, he might decide he has to stay away from alcohol completely.

The same thing might be true for gambling. Some people are born with a susceptibility to behaviors that the Church tells them to avoid on pain of sin. I can put $5 in a slot machine twice a year, and never think about it again. I have a relative who was driven to bankruptcy because that was all she could think about. Her obligations to God and her fellow man were brushed aside by her passion.

It's true that many people have a chemical imbalance when it comes to alcohol, but from what I understand alcoholism is like an addictive allergy. Alcoholics can't handle even the smallest amount of alcohol and can't stop drinking once they start, and it turns into an illness. Is this the way the Catholic Church views same sex attractions, as an illness?

I can't see homosexuality in that way. Sure there are gays that are nymphomaniacs and sex addicts, as are there likewise straights, but that certainly isn't the entirety of the gay community. Many gays want nothing more that a quite, conservative, loving relationship with one person, living together and growing old together.

The same with gambling, like kleptomaniacs, its an adrenaline addiction. Not all gays, just like not all heterosexuals, fall into the sin of gambling or kleptomania. Having a monogamous sexual and committed relationship with a long term partner isn't like an adrenaline rush. Its like any other committed relationship, it takes work and a lot of love.

The more we learn about homosexuality the more we see that people ARE born that way. To deny them the right to the promise of pursuing happiness through a lasting, loving, physical relationship for their entire life seems like a cruel trick on God's part, if the Catholic doctrine really does represent God's plan.

reply to post by windword

Dear windword,

It's the easiest thing in the world to be polite to you. I'm grateful for the help you give me in exposing weakness or confusion in my thoughts and writing. I'm also grateful that you stick with these conversations so that we can explore in depth. Have an internet hug [[Big hug]].

So a monogamous gay couple, a remarried divorcee and a philandering frat boy all carry the same sin, fornication. Right?

Well, none of them should be receiving Communion, and if they do, that's considered a sin in itself. As far as the fornication, that would be the case for the gay couple and the frat boy. Unless the Church has annulled the marriage bonds, the remarried divorcee would be seen as still married to the first spouse, and so would be committing adultery.

I realize that when the rules of the Church meet modern Western culture there are significant and painful situations. Realize it, heck, I've lived it. The Church sees as its mission the salvation of mankind, not necessarily their earthly happiness. That's a hard saying, but it's what loving parents do when their kid demands to eat his 7th candy bar. The parents say "No, I know you want to, but you can't because of the suffering which will surely result." The kid is unhappy, but the parents have shown real love.

One of the facts of this existence is that things that are bad for us, or sins, always look attractive, like the 7th candy bar. That's the reason people do bad things, they think they will get some good from it. And they do get some good from it, but it's outweighed by far, by the harm that comes from it. It's sort of like the worm on the fisherman's hook. The worm looks and tastes good, but taking it is fatal.

And now, let me try to clear up some confusion I caused with my poor analogy to alcoholism. Again, thanks for pointing it out.

The Church doesn't see homosexuality as a sin, or a disease. It is a, what's the word? "Susceptibility?" There are some people with a susceptibility to various sins. Some tend toward excessive pride, or hate, or lust (the nymphomaniacs you mentioned), or any other sin. Whether the person is born with it or develops it, we have weaknesses in various areas. One of my susceptibilities (to make this painfully personal) is to despair. Hatred, thank God, is not something that is a strong temptation for me.

The Church wants to forgive our sins and provide guidance to overcome, or avoid, them as much as we can.

Many gays want nothing more that a quite, conservative, loving relationship with one person, living together and growing old together.

Amazingly, no one is bothered by that. But sexual intimacy in such a situation is sinful. The Church says the same thing about a divorced person, they can live with their new partner even if their first marriage was not annulled, but they have to live together in a chaste relationship.

The Church believes that marriage is a huge thing, special, created by God for His purposes, a sacrament. Sure, sex is a big part of it, a wonderful part of it, but sex is only to be practiced within marriage. You can't drive with an expired license, but many do. You can't have sex outside of marriage, but many do. One big difference is that the State Patrol may never know if you're driving without a license. God, on the other hand . . .

The more we learn about homosexuality the more we see that people ARE born that way. To deny them the right to the promise of pursuing happiness through a lasting, loving, physical relationship for their entire life seems like a cruel trick on God's part, if the Catholic doctrine really does represent God's plan.

It's as cruel a trick as telling the kid he can't have the 7th candy bar, or the fish that he can't have that particular worm.

Thank you, again. I really appreciate you.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952

One of the facts of this existence is that things that are bad for us, or sins, always look attractive, like the 7th candy bar.

OMG! That reminded me, and tempted me, today is National Chocolate Shake Month! Your candy bar analogy made me run to the freezer, and now I'm eating chocolate ice cream from the carton.



There, now you have yours too. Guilty pleasure!

Many gays want nothing more that a quite, conservative, loving relationship with one person, living together and growing old together.

Amazingly, no one is bothered by that. But sexual intimacy in such a situation is sinful. The Church says the same thing about a divorced person, they can live with their new partner even if their first marriage was not annulled, but they have to live together in a chaste relationship.

I can't believe in a God that would deny two people, who are committed to each other and love each, the physical expression of their love. It just doesn't make sense. Love, in and of itself, is a divine thing. Physical expression of love is a physically healthy thing.

If two people fall in love, outside the constraints of church doctrine, it's just a no win situation. Either they experience an "unholy desire" within their resistance and their goal of chastity, or they do the deed, either way they're guilty! It's all sin in the eyes of God, according to the church.

I can only reject a church that represents such a God, who would set us up in such a way. Especially since the "marriage laws" were handed to people at a time when romantic love was forbidden within itself, and marriages were made from business and political arrangements, love having nothing to with the deal, including, of course Adam and Eve.

Sorry if that comes off harsh, But, you know me! I just can't get behind such thinking.

reply to post by windword

Dear windword,

And I didn't go out for a chocolate shake! Does tomorrow count? If not, I'll just have to drool over the one you provided for me. Thanks.

Well, I'm not sure, but we may have come close to an end here.

My position is that the Church has decreed sex outside of marriage is sinful. That position is based on Scripture and the teachings of the Church, basically going back to the beginning.

Your position seems to be that two people who love each other can have sex without any further restrictions or conditions. I think your position is based on the idea that two people who are close should have sex with each other to add a new dimension to their relationship.

If two people fall in love, outside the constraints of church doctrine, it's just a no win situation. Either they experience an "unholy desire" within their resistance and their goal of chastity, or they do the deed, either way they're guilty! It's all sin in the eyes of God, according to the church.

That's close, but having a temptation is not a sin. In fact, fighting off temptation is a good spiritual exercise, it strengthens our "muscles" and teaches us control. I can't count the number of temptations I have in a day, shamefully, I don't resist all of them. But with God's forgiveness and help I try to do better.

Love, in and of itself, is a divine thing.

I agree completely. I love my mother, father, and sister. I want them to be accepted into eternity with God, and I don't want to do anything to get in their way. Love has, as you know, different forms. One type is reserved for married people.

I can't believe in a God that would deny two people, who are committed to each other and love each, the physical expression of their love. It just doesn't make sense.

Back to the worm on the hook, I'm afraid. He wants us to give up a temporary pleasure to gain an eternal one. Greed is a little like that. Some people get pleasure for amassing mountains of money, then spend it on $750,000 foreign sports cars, or $20,000 purses. It makes them feel good for awhile, but their end is sad.

Physical expression of love is a physically healthy thing.

I suppose, but when my doctor tells me to get more exercise, he isn't telling me to have sex daily. (Maybe I should change doctors?)

Sorry if that comes off harsh, But, you know me! I just can't get behind such thinking.

It doesn't sound harsh at all. You've always been kind to me and I'm grateful. Thank you for explaining so thoroughly and patiently.

I understand. God wants us to do hard things, and often we don 't want to. We can explain it away without much trouble. Look at the Catholics who have abortions, for example. I think C.S. Lewis, when asked which religion would make its practitioners happiest, replied "While it lasts, worship of yourself."

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


I had sex with a woman I'm really good friends with last night! After months of abstinence I got drunk and made a mistake. It's easy to sin it's hard to live for God.

reply to post by FinalAccount2008

Dear FinalAccount2008,

Yeah, I know what you mean. It happens. But if you want to live for God, just have a talk with Him. He already knows what happened, but when I foul up, I admit it to Him, ask for His forgiveness and help in doing better. He's happy to forgive, He's the coach who knows your weaknesses, but keeps you on the team because he knows your strengths and where he wants you in His playbook. Just love Him, and play on.

With respect,
Charles1952

I think this video is a great response to the topic at hand:

Fitting for this thread too...

Homosexuality is now taught as a normal lifestyle in grade school programs! In certain states Gay Marriage is the law, something that isn't even possible.

How could it be, while at the very same time...
In a report (July, 2013) from the CDC, the HIV rate is climbing among gay men.


"Gay and bisexual men remain at the epicenter of the HIV/AIDS epidemic," says Jonathan Mermin, the director of the CDC's division of HIV/AIDS prevention.


Part of the reason for all this is the lame criticism of do not judge. Jesus states there is just judgment (John 7:24). And the secular belief today, toleration is a virtue.

Scripture instructs, tell someone of their grave sin and you may save their soul and Mary's quote from Fatima, more souls fall into Hell because of SEXUAL sins than any other. Both remind you not to be silent.

The soul saving beauty of the Sacrament of Confession and for our Protestant brothers and sisters, personal confession. Pray for conversions.

Because it is a normal lifestyle, Religion is a choice, sexuality is not

you can select what religion you want to follow, what god you want to believe in or if you don't want to believe in anything, you can't select who you are attracted to. religion is the artificial in this conversation

reply to post by Darth_Prime

Dear Darth_Prime,

May I add a term to your otherwise faultless description:

Religion is a choice, sexuality is not

Behavior is a choice.

With respect,
Charles1952

Darth_Prime
Because it is a normal lifestyle, Religion is a choice, sexuality is not

you can select what religion you want to follow, what god you want to believe in or if you don't want to believe in anything, you can't select who you are attracted to. religion is the artificial in this conversation

Sodomy is not "normal." Sex was created by God for a married man and WOMAN, for procreation.

Yes, you and me, everyone has been given the free will to follow or not to follow the ONE true God. "Religion"s are many, so sad because there is one faith. Jesus who is named in the thread title is not "artificial" Darth, He said

"I am the way, the truth and the life."

We disagree with each other...until the time of God's divine "awakening" so remember till then.

reply to post by colbe


Please listen to your pope and do not pass judgement on others..it isn't your job.
Try to accept that people can be gay or straight, it isn't a choice it is who they are.
What would you prefer a person to do, lie to themselves and others to "act" straight when they know they are not? or to just be who they are and live a happy life?.
Let the big guy upstairs sort it all out in the end eh? It is a sin to judge others so why not live and let live.
I just don't understand why someone else's sexuality affects you so much, to me it is like you revel in telling everyone they are sinners/unnatural human beings....thats just sick and twisted to me.
But hey let God decide your fate, Iam sure he will have plenty to say about "Your" message.

Darth, I shall offer my rosary for you this evening. Everyone can pray the rosary, you do NOT have to be
Catholic. There is much grace given in praying the rosary. Satan hates it. Count a decade with your ten fingers if you do not have a rosary.

Start with praying one decade a day if saying the five seems to much at first. Just do it, pray the rosary every day.

www.rosary-center.org...

It takes me 17 minutes to pray one rosary which is one of the 3 mysteries (less Pope John Paul II's beautiful
new for our time ~ fourth mystery.

boymonkey74
reply to post by colbe

 

Please listen to your pope and do not pass judgement on others..it isn't your job.
Try to accept that people can be gay or straight, it isn't a choice it is who they are.
What would you prefer a person to do, lie to themselves and others to "act" straight when they know they are not? or to just be who they are and live a happy life?.
Let the big guy upstairs sort it all out in the end eh? It is a sin to judge others so why not live and let live.
I just don't understand why someone else's sexuality affects you so much, to me it is like you revel in telling everyone they are sinners/unnatural human beings....thats just sick and twisted to me.
But hey let God decide your fate, Iam sure he will have plenty to say about "Your" message.

edit on 24-9-2013 by boymonkey74 because: (no reason given)

You attack me personally because you do not understand Christ's teaching, the same as Pope Francis follows.

Love the sinner, not the sin. To be silent about grave mortal sin only causes the loss of more souls.

And not a word about the CDC report released in July, denial of it too most likely. The times.

reply to post by boymonkey74

Dear boymonkey74,

I don't know what is in colbe's heart, I don't pretend to know. All I can do is offer my opinion.

I agree that people can be nearly anything, GBLTQ, and some other letters I don't know. I also don't know why they are as they are, research seems mixed and confused. I respect and love them all as God's highest creation.

I don't want people to act one way if they're not (but sometimes manners requires it). But there are more choices for GLBTQs than just having sex with the person they want to have sex with.

Since you talk about the Pope and "the big guy upstairs," you must think they have relevance to the issue. Therefore, why not listen to what they've said? No sex without marriage. That's about as clear as it can be. And, no, God and the Popes going back forever, are not talking about civil unions.

If there's a 55 m.p.h. speed limit sign and someone goes flying past at 80, there is nothing wrong with saying "That guy's speeding. He's going to be in trouble if the State Patrol is around." But with sin, the "State Patrol" is always around, 24/7.

Colbe may just be warning you to observe the "speed limit." But as I say, I don't know what's in colbe's heart.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by colbe


But you find it fine to attack others just because of who they love veiled behind your religion.
The CDC report only means that the gay community need more sex education so I fail to see your point.
Just stop it please 90% of your posts are hateful and fortunately the world is becoming a better place for people who just so happen to be gay.
You and your ilk are destroying your religion, more and more people are turning away from it because of the outdated views you peddle.
Evolve or give it 3 generations your brand of religion will be no more....good riddance If you refuse to change with the times.

colbe
Fitting for this thread too...

Homosexuality is now taught as a normal lifestyle in grade school programs! In certain states Gay Marriage is the law, something that isn't even possible.
How could it be, while at the very same time... In a report (July, 2013) from the CDC, the HIV rate is climbing among gay men. "Gay and bisexual men remain at the epicenter of the HIV/AIDS epidemic," says Jonathan Mermin, the director of the CDC's division of HIV/AIDS prevention.


Part of the reason for all this is the lame criticism of do not judge. Jesus states there is just judgment (John 7:24). And the secular belief today, toleration is a virtue.

Scripture instructs, tell someone of their grave sin and you may save their soul and Mary's quote from Fatima, more souls fall into Hell because of SEXUAL sins than any other. Both remind you not to be silent.

The soul saving beauty of the Sacrament of Confession and for our Protestant brothers and sisters, personal confession. Pray for conversions.

Charles,

I heard about the recent CDC study and posted a quote from it. Isn't it something, homosexuality is celebrated, taught as being a good to young people now. This is a lie and there is much evidence physically and spiritually of how wrong and against God, the homosexual "act" is and I believe Jesus' mother's words.


I know prayers are more powerful and we can't remain silent in the face of Satan's evil.

boymonkey74
reply to post by colbe

 

But you find it fine to attack others just because of who they love veiled behind your religion.
The CDC report only means that the gay community need more sex education so I fail to see your point.
Just stop it please 90% of your posts are hateful and fortunately the world is becoming a better place for people who just so happen to be gay.
You and your ilk are destroying your religion, more and more people are turning away from it because of the outdated views you peddle.
Evolve or give it 3 generations your brand of religion will be no more....good riddance If you refuse to change with the times.

Sodomites are not following God and the CDC findings is one of the fruits. Sodomy is an intrinsic evil.

Making it personal again because you reject the truth. Science too is trying to tell you.

Why speak of the next generations?

Homosexuals cannot reproduce and neither can a man or woman using contraception. See...God knows what is best for us.