A Critique of "Living in the Moment"

reply to post by Itisnowagain


That is one way to put it, but i wonder if it is at all possible to come to it through knowledge.
For me it was an energetic revelation, psychologists with who i shared it, they talk about it being an survival mechanism.

One thing is clear, everyone will fight it because it means the end, dead.
So maybe we must be embracing dead, welcome it, and not fearing it.

Do you think there is a path?

earthling42
Do you think there is a path?

Any path will lead you away from what is true.

This is already it.

reply to post by Itisnowagain


Yes indeed, any concept or spiritual path will only expand the knowledge of a 'me' which then tries to live with, and according to that concept.

reply to post by BDBinc


Oh yes, not respecting others will often (if not always) result in receiving the same behavior in return. That shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.
I was just telling you what you are - there's nothing wrong with being a mentally challenged person, a schizophrenic, and a troll.

(did you even catch the irony of repeating that back to you? )

Many of these Thought Stopping techniques are pushed forward by cults and various gurus, along with ego-rejection practices. They often go hand in hand in the whole process of indoctrination and submission. The adepts learn to reject identification with self (selflessness) and their subconscious becomes open to exterior influences. Other becomes their guiding intent , or "will".

Bluesma
Other becomes their guiding intent , or "will".

When you find out what is what and what is not, you will realize there is no other and then the fear will lift.
The fear of being controlled is what makes for the belief that you have to control.
When it is realized that all is just arising unconditionally that is when love is known - not as a concept but as the true reality.

Itisnowagain

What does 'conscious mind' mean to you? Is it the thoughts that can actually be heard/known (the speaking mind)?

Does the speaking mind actually do anything but speak?

In an attempt to communicate most effectively, I will try to use the same techniques you often employ.
Here's a video of a person explaining what seems to be the same sort of concept I percieve. Perhaps seeing images and hearing sounds will vehicles the concept better for you than my written word has in the past!


My experience is that there is a rich inner experience of sensory type forms and associations that are wordless. Language is only used to vehicle these experiences to the mind of another.

When I am observing the world, my mind is not "speaking". There is a varied amount of images, sounds, sensations, smells, and movements going on, but they are nameless.

If I have an urge to enter into communication or relation with one of these, I begin to draw upon words to do that with.

Is 'unconscious mind' (is this what you call the 'subconscious') the 'core beliefs' one has but does not realize one has (in your opinion)?

I tend to use the word "unconscious" when speaking of very deeply sourced ideas, thoughts, feelings , actions, and motivations. In speaking of certain biological processes, for example.

I consider that there are "levels" of consciousness, going to that depth and then higher and higher ones, coming all the way up to conscious focus of mind. A concept can move from the highest level and sink down, or rise from the depths, becoming more and more part of the conscious focus.

I will often use the word "subconscious" for intermediary levels (I guess the way Freud used "preconscious" ?)


In my examples of acts or gestures "stemming from the unconscious" I do not mean to say that they necessarily STAY down there (though they might) But if they rise and I become conscious of them after that act, I can still say they were in the unconscious, came up through the subconscious, and are now conscious.

Personally, I experience a constant process of experiencial input sinking down within, and thought rising up to consciousness.

Are these concepts and associations "core beliefs"? I guess that they can be. But not limited to.
I find it more accurate to say that core beliefs will often determine some fo the types of associations that occur in those depths. Value systems, for example- ideas of things being good or bad, can make some sensorial memories attach to others....

Itisnowagain

When you find out what is what and what is not, you will realize there is no other and then the fear will lift.
The fear of being controlled is what makes for the belief that you have to control.
When it is realized that all is just arising unconditionally that is when love is known - not as a concept but as the true reality.

Oh here we go again... you telling me that I am afraid, and that life is fear .....

I just don't experience that. I find life delicious! I am not afraid of this process I speak of, I have started a thread on it and went on for Pages explaining that brainwashing is not a necessarily bad thing- it is a potential choice a person can make if they want to change their current ego, and find someone who proposes a type of ego they would prefer to develop.

Why would I be afraid?

The whole "I dare you to do what I say, if you don't you're a chicken" thing is so first grade...

Bluesma
Oh here we go again... you telling me that I am afraid, and that life is fear .....

It seems that you bring up cults, brainwashing, indoctrination and submission and imply that to be empty of beliefs (identification) one will be in danger.

Bluesma

In an attempt to communicate most effectively, I will try to use the same techniques you often employ.
Here's a video of a person explaining what seems to be the same sort of concept I percieve. Perhaps seeing images and hearing sounds will vehicles the concept better for you than my written word has in the past!

My experience is that there is a rich inner experience of sensory type forms and associations that are wordless. Language is only used to vehicle these experiences to the mind of another.

When I am observing the world, my mind is not "speaking". There is a varied amount of images, sounds, sensations, smells, and movements going on, but they are nameless.

Thank you for posting the video - I understand that words are secondary - that non conceptual (unnamed, unlabelled) reality is primary.
'What is' arises without conceptualization initially and then a concept arises out of it.

'Me' is the first concept and then the illusion of separation creates a world of good and bad for 'the me' to play in.

Itisnowagain

Bluesma
Oh here we go again... you telling me that I am afraid, and that life is fear .....

It seems that you bring up cults, brainwashing, indoctrination and submission and imply that to be empty of beliefs (identification) one will be in danger.

edit on 29-9-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

'It seems' does not mean it is true. It is simply the interpretation you have made of my words... do we agree on that? When I say "it seems", I am making it clear that I am aware my interpretation may be mistaken- it may not be what you actually meant.

I have repeated often on this site,but cannot know who read it or who remembered it, that I see this as a mental tool that can be useful, or abused. Just as a hammer can be.

No "danger" is usually involved (perhaps in some extreme cases, like cults that have caused members to kill ), but conscious awareness and focus can make the process even more quick and effective, or stop it from being a discomfort and obstacle.

Itisnowagain

Thank you for posting the video - I understand that words are secondary - that non conceptual (unnamed, unlabelled) reality is primary.
'What is' arises without conceptualization initially and then a concept arises out of it.

'Me' is the first concept and then the illusion of separation creates a world of good and bad for 'the me' to play in.

It is pleasurable to me that we are able to find some similtudes in our perceptions!

I would simply add that the good and bad values are ONLY in relation to intent- things can be good or bad depending upon what my next chosen experience or intent is- and if that changes, then my values change too.
The "I" has no good or bad perception until it has an intent.
Intent is the will. It is a choice of direction. Not to get away from fear, as you claim, but to discover unknown and make it known. Adventure. Experience. Relation.

As the Cheshire Cat said-

“Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from here?"
"That depends a good deal on where you want to get to."
"I don't much care where –"
"Then it doesn't matter which way you go.”

― Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland

Bluesma
reply to post by BDBinc

 

Oh yes, not respecting others will often (if not always) result in receiving the same behavior in return. That shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.
I was just telling you what you are - there's nothing wrong with being a mentally challenged person, a schizophrenic, and a troll.

(did you even catch the irony of repeating that back to you? )

Many of these Thought Stopping techniques are pushed forward by cults and various gurus, along with ego-rejection practices. They often go hand in hand in the whole process of indoctrination and submission. The adepts learn to reject identification with self (selflessness) and their subconscious becomes open to exterior influences. Other becomes their guiding intent , or "will".

edit on 29-9-2013 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)

You say giving respect is resultant of getting respect .Sorry that is also wrong- respect is not given because someone respects you. Some people respect all people, some people only respect people whose ideas they agree with, some respect no one as they lack self respect .


I'll say it again -there are no thought stopping techniques used by cults for brain washing they use thought substitution for changing beliefs -it has nothing to do with thought stopping .

Much like these cult members isn't your "subconscious" not open to" exterior influences".If not how did you close it off without it being conscious ( being that its "SUBconscious")

BDBinc


You say giving respect is resultant of getting respect .Sorry that is also wrong- respect is not given because someone respects you. Some people respect all people, some people only respect people whose ideas they agree with, some respect no one as they lack self respect .

Some people (I am one) do not respect individuals who have repeatedly shown they do not acknowledge my sovereignty as an individual. We are many. You will often find, in public gatherings, people who will not continue to respect you if you repeatedly fail to.

I'll say it again -there are no thought stopping techniques used by cults for brain washing they use thought substitution for changing beliefs -it has nothing to do with thought stopping .

You can call it whatever you like, as I have said. I have seen it called both thought stopping and thought substitution. Substituting a thought is the only way to stop it. Different terms, same thing. (but of course we have been over this point ten times already, so you'll probably want to assert again your chosen terminology, for some mysterious reason known only to you)

Much like these cult members isn't your "subconscious" not open to" exterior influences".If not how did you close it off without it being conscious ( being that its "SUBconscious")

It is never "closed off", it is always receptive, always taking in experience. It often desires a "guiding intent"- a will, to canalize what it will bring back up and what actions it shall carry out.
(This desire is born from the automated system of repulsion from pain, attraction to pleasure. )

In the absence of an internal will (ego), then it will be vulnerable to exterior sources- specific people or groups which become the Self In Absentia. After a period of time of forming a well constructed "copy" of the personality is done, integration is the next process. An internal version of that personality is formed- they become "the voice in your head" the one that dictates right and wrong, true and false, according to the trajectory of intent.

If a time comes that the individual feels the particular inner will they have is no longer desireable (it does not correspond to intents they still wish to follow, or they don't find it to be effective in achieving the intents or goals promised, or cause more pain than pleasure...) then they can go about rejecting the self .
The subconscious will then be receptive to others instead.

The whole process gets started again.

In my own experience, it is not the only method of ego construction- it is the most common though. Looking for separate ideas to build with instead of separate personalities to choose from can be done as well.

Many people choose to follow individuals as examples simply because they can illustrate through act whether their system of thought and perception actually can achieve the intents promised! The guru that promises his system of thought and vision will bring one to "constant inner peace" , or the group that promises "freedom from all desire, and ethical respect between people" can be observed in action to determine how effective their system is in the long run.

The promises of a system simply read from a book consist of more risk in some ways, with no back up for claims of what it shall produce in experience.


-Another way of trying to approach this process, which I find especially poignant, is likening it to a feminine and masculine parts of yourself within? Along the lines of male "self consciousness" and female "other consciousness"....
If a man is married (like a soul that has engaged into manifestation with a body...),
And he mistreats his wife,
Or is absent
She might be vulnerable to the affections and seductive efforts of other males.
Out of loneliness, boredom, need for affection, or for protection.

One of the most common tools men use when attracted to a woman who is married is to try to suggest to her that she is being mistreated, or abandoned by her husband, with suggestions the he would be different, offer more. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it is not true (the woman feels loved and fulfilled already) and it doesn't work.

Itisnowagain


It seems that you bring up cults, brainwashing, indoctrination and submission and imply that to be empty of beliefs (identification) one will be in danger.

I didn't catch it the first time I read this, but it seems (remember, I use that to indicate I am open to the possibility I have not comprehended your meaning correctly!) that you consider yourself as "empty of beliefs or identification" ?

Is that correct?

From my point of view, the concepts that you put forth ARE beliefs.... or at least your particular choice of perception.
That there is no individual self, or individual will, is a belief or particular perception.

Do you simply consider that to be not a belief, but "The Truth"?

That is what "belief" is.


See, my experience is that
we never really are void of any perceptions to identify with. It is like a vacuum.

The belief in having no ego is often driven by the desire to be free of desire, or the the desire to avoid discomfort, which makes it no different from any of the other myriad concepts adopted out of the same desire for comfort and pleasure.

Bluesma

Itisnowagain


It seems that you bring up cults, brainwashing, indoctrination and submission and imply that to be empty of beliefs (identification) one will be in danger.

I didn't catch it the first time I read this, but it seems (remember, I use that to indicate I am open to the possibility I have not comprehended your meaning correctly!) that you consider yourself as "empty of beliefs or identification" ?

Is that correct?

From my point of view, the concepts that you put forth ARE beliefs.... or at least your particular choice of perception.

The questioner in this interview is basically saying the same to Osho and Osho answers it as I would.

Bluesma
That there is no individual self, or individual will, is a belief or particular perception.

It is not a 'belief' - it is what has been realized.

Bluesma
Some people (I am one) do not respect individuals who have repeatedly shown they do not acknowledge my sovereignty as an individual. We are many. You will often find, in public gatherings, people who will not continue to respect you if you repeatedly fail to.

But you have no sovereignty over any other members at ATS. Though you think it you are better than other people its just a belief . There are also other people who think they are superior to others and demand acknowledgement and get upset when they do not get it these people do not respect other people. They have inferiority complexes.
Some people respect all people, some people only respect people whose ideas they agree with, some respect no one as they lack self respect .

Bluesma

You can call it whatever you like, as I have said. I have seen it called both thought stopping and thought substitution. Substituting a thought is the only way to stop it. Different terms, same thing. (but of course we have been over this point ten times already, so you'll probably want to assert again your chosen terminology, for some mysterious reason known only to you)

Much like these cult members isn't your "subconscious" not open to" exterior influences".If not how did you close it off without it being conscious ( being that its "SUBconscious")

It is never "closed off", it is always receptive, always taking in experience. It often desires a "guiding intent"- a will, to canalize what it will bring back up and what actions it shall carry out.
(This desire is born from the automated system of repulsion from pain, attraction to pleasure. )
In the absence of an internal will (ego), then it will be vulnerable to exterior sources- specific people or groups which become the Self In Absentia. After a period of time of forming a well constructed "copy" of the personality is done, integration is the next process. An internal version of that personality is formed- they become "the voice in your head" the one that dictates right and wrong, true and false, according to the trajectory of intent.
If a time comes that the individual feels the particular inner will they have is no longer desireable (it does not correspond to intents they still wish to follow, or they don't find it to be effective in achieving the intents or goals promised, or cause more pain than pleasure...) then they can go about rejecting the self .
The subconscious will then be receptive to others instead.
The whole process gets started again.
In my own experience, it is not the only method of ego construction- it is the most common though. Looking for separate ideas to build with instead of separate personalities to choose from can be done as well.
Many people choose to follow individuals as examples simply because they can illustrate through act whether their system of thought and perception actually can achieve the intents promised! The guru that promises his system of thought and vision will bring one to "constant inner peace" , or the group that promises "freedom from all desire, and ethical respect between people" can be observed in action to determine how effective their system is in the long run. The promises of a system simply read from a book consist of more risk in some ways, with no back up for claims of what it shall produce in experience.
Another way of trying to approach this process, which I find especially poignant, is likening it to a feminine and masculine parts of yourself within? Along the lines of male "self consciousness" and female "other consciousness"....
If a man is married (like a soul that has engaged into manifestation with a body...),
And he mistreats his wife,
Or is absent
She might be vulnerable to the affections and seductive efforts of other males.
Out of loneliness, boredom, need for affection, or for protection.
One of the most common tools men use when attracted to a woman who is married is to try to suggest to her that she is being mistreated, or abandoned by her husband, with suggestions the he would be different, offer more. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it is not true (the woman feels loved and fulfilled already) and it doesn't work.

edit on 30-9-2013 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)

There are no thought stopping techniques used by cults for brain washing they use thought substitution for changing beliefs -it has nothing to do with thought stopping .
Do you claim people in cults do have not egos? They do .The personality and behaviour is sometimes changed according to the new beliefs –a personality is not copied.
Will is not ego.

So just like in a cult your subconscious is always receptive to ideas that give you pleasure. You are a slave to an automated mind that is repelled by pain and attracted to pleasure? If you continue to be slave to the mind which desiring pleasure and being repulsed by pain how can you do anything but an automatron= Slave to senses?
Again, how is it that you claim know your “subconscious”? Key to that question is the meaning that you are not conscious of it (thus the word SUB conscious not conscious)?

On your opinion on woman who cheat on husbands, isn’t it different in each case as not all woman (even when abused or feeling abandoned )will cheat/harm/mistreat the husband.

I do not know what you mean by Ethical Respect- is that different to respect?
Also are you saying you have an internal will and an external will?


When in the cases of real spiritual teachers If there is truth of inner peace and sincerity in an individual there is always success.

The mind is the ultimate cheat that hides reality from you.
Your mind produces and sends you things that do not come from life; it sends you things it makes up itself. It creates and sends you emotions, desires, thoughts, fears and worries, etc. This is why/how when safe in a hospital your mind started thinking about the past and put you into a panic over nothing.
You, like all humans, need sovereignty over your mind not over others.

Consciousness is always in the present moment, except when consciousness is watching the mind chasing it following it, the mind is ruling the consciousness in such as case, the mind going where it likes, visits past, contemplates future, mentates and rationalizes these experiences out of an emotional base connected through other experiences. When the consciousness should instead be ruling the mind, placing it moment to moment, this is conscious awareness, being in the now, the mind calmly abiding where it is placed. Run after the mind with consciousness... it gets embroiled in it's phantasms, self delusions giving rise to suffering from being attached to the dramas the mind shows the consciousness. The mind is untamed, it's like a dog dragging it's master named consciousness down the street. Reverse that situation, and the mind becomes mastered.

reply to post by BDBinc

Your mind produces and sends you things that do not come from life; it sends you things it makes up itself

Is the mind not a part of life?

I think saying that the mind and thoughts does not come from life, or that thinking isn't something that happens to the living is quite closed-minded inclination. Are you not a living being who thinks? Where exactly to do thoughts come from outside of life?

It would appear to me that you do think, you are living and there is no way to superficially claim the opposite.

reply to post by BigBrotherDarkness

Consciousness is always in the present moment, except when consciousness is watching the mind chasing it following it, the mind is ruling the consciousness in such as case, the mind going where it likes, visits past, contemplates future, mentates and rationalizes these experiences out of an emotional base connected through other experiences. When the consciousness should instead be ruling the mind, placing it moment to moment, this is conscious awareness, being in the now, the mind calmly abiding where it is placed. Run after the mind with consciousness... it gets embroiled in it's phantasms, self delusions giving rise to suffering from being attached to the dramas the mind shows the consciousness. The mind is untamed, it's like a dog dragging it's master named consciousness down the street. Reverse that situation, and the mind becomes mastered.

I find what you say very true. It must be that those that disparage the mind, wish to banish it somehow, have not yet reached the point of mastering it and using it to their own advantage.

NiNjABackflip

I find what you say very true. It must be that those that disparage the mind, wish to banish it somehow, have not yet reached the point of mastering it and using it to their own advantage.

Now, even though I could easily find myself saying exactly such a statement,
(or the same thing about mastering emotions),
The next question I would expect anyone to ask is-
What is the part or thing that is mastering and using to it's advantage??

I have my own view on that, but I understand that for many people, that is the part that seems hard to grasp....