A Critique of "Living in the Moment"

BDBinc

Imagination is not reality.You are confused on reality .You do not know what focus on the moment means as you think it means focusing your mind on thinking.
You think thoughts are reality.

Did you even READ what I wrote?? Are you insane? Sitting here dictating to a stranger on the other side of the world what they think and feel and experience (exactly the opposite of what they have exposed to you).

I wrote Emotions and thoughts are not external objective reality. They have no mass, they do not exist in specific points of time or space.

Yikes I know that you think your thoughts of the past are reality.
No you cannot tell people your imagining is reality for them. They are just thoughts.

Are you frigging serious here??? As you make up this nonsense about what I think, believe, and feel, and dictate it to me claiming you "know" it, in the same post you condemn doing such a thing??

Even if now you are now saying in a panic attack you are rapidly switching back and forth in imaginary mental states- which is not being present in the moment. Its thinking, and this thinking you call your multiple realities thinking about the past emotions and “meanings” AND thinking about the existence of meaningless objects , space and time.
You cannot be serious when you are telling me your multiple ideas /thoughts(your private world) are considered by me to be reality.

I never said ANYTHING CLOSE to the idea that in a panic attack I am "rapidly switching back and forth ", and I carefully explained that no thought of past is necessary for a subconscious association and reflex to be triggered by an element of the present environment.

In the present, I am aware that there are objects and beings in specific points of time and space, some in trajectory (movement and process), and that they have no inherent value or meaning. I am SIMULTANEOUSLY aware that in this same present, my subconscious is bubbling up with values, meanings, and emotions it associates with these objects, beings, and processes. I am aware that is what those are, and that they are subjective- specific to myself, and in some cases, others can have some that are similar or the same. But they are not objects. They are not objective reality.

Is that difficult for you to understand?
What about if I told you I also see out of my left and right eyes simultaneously? That I do not need to alternate closing one to see out the other? Would that be impossible for you to grasp too??

I won't claim to know what is going on in your head, I will point out that the words you have put up here, directly contradict everything I say and claim they came from me. That is often a sign of some mental confusion.

I don't know what exactly is going on in your internal world, but effective communication is impossible at this rate.


I see that it was not you who claimed to be a hypnotist, but someone else- which is why I thought you might be familiar with the concepts of the subconscious mind (which is what a hypnotist works with).

It seems you do not have any or much knowledge about the subconscious mind (as distinguished from the conscious mind) so that may be making it impossible for you to comprehend the concepts I refer to.
There is no further reason for us to discuss this.

Itisnowagain
It all just happens.
There is no me thinking - thoughts happen, bodies move.
It is like just watching a movie - it is known that no one is doing anything - it is all done.

Is it possible to choose what thought appears next?

Here is a nice video that may answer some questions.

edit on 27-9-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

"Is it possible to choose what thought appears next?"
I suppose that focusing on a thought = choosing what thought appears next.

Your idea, as one in my position might call it, seems unshakable. You have put yourself in the position of an incarnate messenger* on this planet, or a consciousness which observes a human do what "it chooses" to do. I do not think those are accurate reflections of your idea - you explain it well yourself, yet I can't understand what there is to explain from it; there is nothing to explain from it, as your idea goes.


*A messenger for the will of that which you do not identify; nevertheless, it's will is ever present so to have authored and moved your existence...so to have you, Itisnowagain, my correspondent, as an observer of the thoughts and feelings of one individual.
What do you think?

BDBinc

Yes you are in denial.
With horse riding you can get bomb proof horses which are usually used for therapy they are use to fear and are very well trained. So therapy horses are not biofeedback machines and you do not have to be focused on your negative thoughts/feelings to ride horses.

Obviously you do not know what you are talking about. Insensitive (bombproof) horses may be used in
physical therapy- for handicapped people. In psychotherapy, the importance is to have horses that are very sensitive and reactive. Not fearful, nor aggressive..... highly sensitive and reactional.
So that as a person stands next to them, and their thoughts and emotions change inside, the horse will react- by stepping away, stepping closer... becoming nervous, becoming calm. Horses are prey animals with highly tuned senses to pick up things like the smell of hormonal secretions, heartbeat, blood pressure, respiration. In nature this gives them clues to the presence and intents of predators, allowing their body to "prepare" for events.

Horses do not "think" about the potential future attack or chase, it is an automatic response system in their body. Humans have the same sort of automatic systems in their bodies, evolved and geared towards survival.
These are what we commonly call "subconscious" processes and reactions. They require no conscious focus of thought at all.

People are often not even aware that their body is doing this interaction with external stimuli all the time, so work with animals like this gives easily perceptible feedback helping them become more aware of these internal processes.

These processes are happening in the present, in direct response to the objects, beings and events in the immediate environment, so being aware of them IS being aware of the present.

But I am sure you will twist this around too, into something completely contrary to what I just wrote.

You have previously told me you had stopped meditating don’t know why you say you mediate daily now but great if you start.

Apparently you got me mixed up with someone else. I never would say such a thing, I have never stopped meditating, and never would. It is a part of living for me.

NiNjABackflip
reply to post by Bluesma

 

Doesn't it get tiresome when people tell you what you are doing, as if they knew you, even though they haven't been within a 100km radius of you at any given time? That in itself is quite telling, wouldn't you agree?

No kidding!

This conversation alone is convincing me more and more that there are some that NEED to remind themselves to "get real" from one moment to the next.

I feel myself becoming more epicurean by the moment.

1Learner

"Is it possible to choose what thought appears next?"
I suppose that focusing on a thought = choosing what thought appears next.

Your idea, as one in my position might call it, seems unshakable. You have put yourself in the position of an incarnate messenger* on this planet, or a consciousness which observes a human do what "it chooses" to do.

What do you think?

Does one choose to drop something or crash the car?
Things happen and then a voice says 'I did that' or 'I shouldn't have done that'. This voice (wording) says that 'I' did it but who is this 'I' that did it.
Wording happens - and the word seems to come alive and take on an identity of it's own by telling stories about a 'me living in time' - a 'me' who wants the good and wants to avoid the bad.

The idea that one chooses to do all that is done is the trap - the lie. If you believe that you have to do it right and never be bad then you are divided - you will live with an internal battle of good versus bad. The duality of man - he fights with himself and is conflicted 'inside' and it spews 'out' onto all that surrounds him - it is the human condition - the torturing judging mind continually measuring everything and comparing this with that - life is then a competition, a problem and a battle field. It looks at all it sees and divides it with labels good and bad, right and wrong.


This moment of presence is just arising as this - no one is doing it - it is all done. You are just the witness to the movie - the witness and the movie are one - just like the tv screen and the moving image appearing on it are one.

Imagination is not reality.You are confused on reality .You do not know what focus on the moment means as you think it means focusing your mind on thinking.
You think thoughts are reality.

Bluesma
Did you even READ what I wrote?? Are you insane? Sitting here dictating to a stranger on the other side of the world what they think and feel and experience (exactly the opposite of what they have exposed to you).

I wrote Emotions and thoughts are not external objective reality. They have no mass, they do not exist in specific points of time or space.

Yes I read everything you wrote, you wrote that in your panic attacks you think that your “internal subjective reality brings up associations of emotion and meaning. You are aware of these at the same time that I remain aware of the external objective reality, in which objects, space and time exist without any meaning.”
While you panic you say you are aware of the present moment which I say from what you have told me is untrue as I told you your thoughts wipe awareness of it out.

Bluesma


Are you frigging serious here??? As you make up this nonsense about what I think, believe, and feel, and dictate it to me claiming you "know" it, in the same post you condemn doing such a thing??

Your imagining the past in the present moment, panicking is not you experiencing reality it is you experiencing thoughts/imagination. In your panic attacks imagining a past experience is happening NOW and panicking over thoughts is imagining. You imagine the past & panic .

Bluesma
I never said ANYTHING CLOSE to the idea that in a panic attack I am "rapidly switching back and forth ", and I carefully explained that no thought of past is necessary for a subconscious association and reflex to be triggered by an element of the present environment.

You did read what you told me you told me you where thinking about past emotions, fears and meanings and other thoughts .These are multiple thoughts. Are subconscious thoughts not thoughts. The past emotions and “meanings” AND thinking about the existence of meaningless objects , space and time are thoughts.

Bluesma
In the present, I am aware that there are objects and beings in specific points of time and space, some in trajectory (movement and process), and that they have no inherent value or meaning. I am SIMULTANEOUSLY aware that in this same present, my subconscious is bubbling up with values, meanings, and emotions it associates with these objects, beings, and processes. I am aware that is what those are, and that they are subjective- specific to myself, and in some cases, others can have some that are similar or the same. But they are not objects. They are not objective reality.

Is that difficult for you to understand?
What about if I told you I also see out of my left and right eyes simultaneously? That I do not need to alternate closing one to see out the other? Would that be impossible for you to grasp too??

I won't claim to know what is going on in your head, I will point out that the words you have put up here, directly contradict everything I say and claim they came from me. That is often a sign of some mental confusion.

No from your thoughts your mental state is not difficult to understand .
There is no recognition of your thinking of the past as problematic you are in control even in a panic attack . To focus on the present one cannot be “ losing contrast “ or thinking fearfully about the past. What you claimed you are doing(being focused/aware of the present moment) in a panic attack or as you say you always are is impossible.If you were aware of the moment there is nothing to panic about as you are not thinking about/imagining the past.
Your imaginary realities are not reality.

Bluesma
I see that it was not you who claimed to be a hypnotist, but someone else- which is why I thought you might be familiar with the concepts of the subconscious mind (which is what a hypnotist works with).

It seems you do not have any or much knowledge about the subconscious mind (as distinguished from the conscious mind) so that may be making it impossible for you to comprehend the concepts I refer to.
There is no further reason for us to discuss this.

edit on 27-9-2013 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)

edit on 27-9-2013 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)

If you knew your “subconscious mind”/thoughts then you are fully conscious of them. Subconscious means unknown to you- that you are not conscious of them. It seems you know what you do not know.
If you do not know yourself you are at the mercy of what you do not know.

Bluesma

BDBinc

Yes you are in denial.
With horse riding you can get bomb proof horses which are usually used for therapy they are use to fear and are very well trained. So therapy horses are not biofeedback machines and you do not have to be focused on your negative thoughts/feelings to ride horses.

Obviously you do not know what you are talking about. Insensitive (bombproof) horses may be used in
physical therapy- for handicapped people. In psychotherapy, the importance is to have horses that are very sensitive and reactive. Not fearful, nor aggressive..... highly sensitive and reactional.
So that as a person stands next to them, and their thoughts and emotions change inside, the horse will react- by stepping away, stepping closer... becoming nervous, becoming calm. Horses are prey animals with highly tuned senses to pick up things like the smell of hormonal secretions, heartbeat, blood pressure, respiration. In nature this gives them clues to the presence and intents of predators, allowing their body to "prepare" for events.

Horses do not "think" about the potential future attack or chase, it is an automatic response system in their body. Humans have the same sort of automatic systems in their bodies, evolved and geared towards survival.
These are what we commonly call "subconscious" processes and reactions. They require no conscious focus of thought at all.

People are often not even aware that their body is doing this interaction with external stimuli all the time, so work with animals like this gives easily perceptible feedback helping them become more aware of these internal processes.

These processes are happening in the present, in direct response to the objects, beings and events in the immediate environment, so being aware of them IS being aware of the present.

But I am sure you will twist this around too, into something completely contrary to what I just wrote.



.

No Horses used for therapy are very well trained (we call these bomb proof ) they do not use highly strung horses and they are use to fearful riders -they are not biofeedback machines.
Horse riding does not make the rider conscious about their subconscious fearful thoughts .
You must like riding horses it makes you happy. The happiness of being is the therapeutic value.

BDBinc


While you panic you say you are aware of the present moment which I say from what you have told me is untrue as I told you your thoughts wipe awareness of it out.

You are quite simply, wrong, and have been corrected on that. That is not what I feel, think, or experience.

The past in the present moment, panicking is not you experiencing reality it is you experiencing thoughts/imagination. In your panic attacks imagining a past experience is happening NOW and panicking over thoughts is imagining. You imagine the past & panic .

You are , again, wrong, and have been corrected on that too.

In all fairness, I have become aware that you are missing knowledge of certain concepts I have been refering to, and may be unable to comprehend. We cannot exchange any meaningful communication if you do not know what "subconscious" refers to, or the difference between "subjective" reality, and "objective" reality, or what "mental objects" are.
You would also need to understand the difference between "awareness" and "focus of thought".
Awareness is much wider and inclusive, focus is more specific. But just like in a photo, you can focus on different elements in it, one at a time, but your peripheral vision does not disappear- you remain aware of the other elements in the photo regardless of which part you are focusing on.

Your dictations and projections of your thoughts upon me are very rude as well, and illustrate one of my critiques of the techniques that attempt to erase self or separation , if taken to an extreme. The boundry between self and other become indistinguishable, so considerate behavior is handicapped.

BDBinc

No Horses used for therapy are very well trained (we call these bomb proof ) they do not use highly strung horses and they are use to fearful riders -they are not biofeedback machines.
Horse riding does not make the rider conscious about their subconscious fearful thoughts .

You must be mentally challenged. Or a troll, or both.

Itisnowagain
Does one choose to drop something or crash the car?

I assume you mean accidents. Accidents are not chosen, such would contradict the nature of an accident.
Are thoughts random/accidental? Only the ones you distinguish to be so. According to you, all of them are accidental. One of them is not, and it would be the thought which drives you to distinguish them as accidental; so, you have a contradiction.
I'm guessing that you do not see it, and I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on this.

Itisnowagain
Things happen and then a voice says 'I did that' or 'I shouldn't have done that'. This voice (wording) says that 'I' did it but who is this 'I' that did it.

Assuming "Things" actually means the actions of a self aware individual:
The 'I' that did it, is the voice that says 'I did that', as well as the thinker (who is separated from the voice). It is both when both are 1 - the same as your idea of "the witness and the movie". (Quoted below)

Itisnowagain
This moment of presence is just arising as this - no one is doing it - it is all done. You are just the witness to the movie - the witness and the movie are one - just like the tv screen and the moving image appearing on it are one.

Continuing from what I was saying,
Divided individuals cannot see the "I", so there is no benefit in saying what it is because the concept from which I draw it is presented to me while I am still divided...so others who are divided can therefore draw that concept while in division too, thus never gaining "the benefit" of resolving the division.
Yet, you say there is no conflict, and nothing to seek such as that "benefit"- I cannot really know whether you are divided while explaining that by your concepts or not (meaning you'd fit the image of the "witness and the movie", but only in my mind as the concept) . It seems up to me in understanding my own division myself. I hope this makes sense...

1Learner

Itisnowagain
Does one choose to drop something or crash the car?

I assume you mean accidents. Accidents are not chosen, such would contradict the nature of an accident.
Are thoughts random/accidental? Only the ones you distinguish to be so. According to you, all of them are accidental. One of them is not, and it would be the thought which drives you to distinguish them as accidental; so, you have a contradiction.
I'm guessing that you do not see it, and I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on this.

Thought is a thing that appears and then is not there - like a sensation that appears but is not constant (a headache will come but will not stay indefinitely).
You are the space which is always there allowing each arising.

Things (thoughts) appear and disappear in the space.

The words appearing on this screen (which you are reading) may drive one to look at the nature of thought - did you put these words here? Or do they just appear and be seen as one movement?
Seeing words is happening and then this happening is split by the mind into 'something seeing' and 'something seen'.
The supposed 'something seeing' then imagines that it is separate and gets scared and tries to protect itself from 'the something seen' - the 'something other'. Really there is just the presence of what is happening but the illusion of separation into a 'seer' and a 'seen' starts the game of being pretending to be more than just this ever present one.

1Learner

Assuming "Things" actually means the actions of a self aware individual:

What is 'self' and what is 'aware'? 'Self aware' appears to mean that there is a 'self' which is 'aware' of a 'self' when really there is just awareness of what is appearing. It is the common condition to believe that there is an individual self to be aware of - that is the human condition where one is constantly concerned with how one is performing, how one 'should be' and how one 'ought to be'. Concerned with 'how I performed yesterday' and concerned with 'how I might perform tomorrow'. It is self judgment, self evaluation - it is division which is conflict. There seems to be someone telling you that you are doing it wrong or doing it right - there appears to be a parent and a child fighting in the head - it is the duality of man (a bully and a victim rolled into one). One thinks if one can 'do it right' one will be making progress.

The 'I' that did it, is the voice that says 'I did that', as well as the thinker (who is separated from the voice).

The thinker is not separated from the voice - the words appearing/the voice is the thinker. Words are things that appear and disappear in you (the space)

Divided individuals cannot see the "I", so there is no benefit in saying what it is because the concept from which I draw it is presented to me while I am still divided...so others who are divided can therefore draw that concept while in division too, thus never gaining "the benefit" of resolving the division.

Individuals are always looking to benefit - it's a 'what's in it for me' approach to life.
When the 'me' drops away it will be seen that all there ever was, all there ever is, is life happening.
This is aliveness.

Itisnowagain

Does one choose to drop something or crash the car?

Though I agree with the conscious mind's tendancy to make claim to gestures and acts it did not actually initiate consciously .....
I often bring up the example of the experiment done with the girl whose brain was hooked up on electrotodes that stimulated a laugh reflex, then she came up with some wierd explanation for why she had laughed, drawn from what her eyes had seen at the moment the laugh was provoked.

This illustrated well the way our conscious will likes to claim total control (and convinces itself it is) of the present.

What is important to note also, though, was that though her mind came up with a bogus cause-effect explanation (she had seen a fork at the moment the electrode was stimulated, so she said the fork made her laugh, forks are funny looking), even nine months later, she was still laughing each time she saw a fork! (which was not the case before this experiment).

This indicates that her perception determined and set future behaviors. In the moment, we may not choose our reactions and reflexes, but we could have programmed them much earlier!

As in the idea of Freudian slips, in which the subconscious expresses itself, it can also express itself through actions- getting into an accident, because actually one is sick of their work and wants time off, or is feeling self destructive because of guilt feelings...

This is where I tend to say I chose, but not necessarily right now, not necessarily consciously, not necessarily with full awareness of all the effects my choice would have. But I programmed my subconscious and am always programming it.

Bluesma

Itisnowagain

Does one choose to drop something or crash the car?

Though I agree with the conscious mind's tendancy to make claim to gestures and acts it did not actually initiate consciously .....

What does 'conscious mind' mean to you? Is it the thoughts that can actually be heard/known (the speaking mind)?

Does the speaking mind actually do anything but speak?

Is 'unconscious mind' (is this what you call the 'subconscious') the 'core beliefs' one has but does not realize one has (in your opinion)?

Itisnowagain
What is 'self' and what is 'aware'? 'Self aware' appears to mean that there is a 'self' which is 'aware' of a 'self' when really there is just awareness of what is appearing.

'Self' is whatever utilizes free-will.
'Aware' means "having knowledge of".
'Self aware' means that the consciousness has knowledge...
I don't know much more to be able to keep up this conversation, so I'm afraid that I have to end my participation in this thread with this post. What you say is thoughtful, though, and I run into a barrier when you point out that there is basically nothing to be found and I start believing that as true.

Bluesma

BDBinc

No Horses used for therapy are very well trained (we call these bomb proof ) they do not use highly strung horses and they are use to fearful riders -they are not biofeedback machines.
Horse riding does not make the rider conscious about their subconscious fearful thoughts .

You must be mentally challenged. Or a troll, or both.

Whoah there!
Last time I checked when people do not agree with you its rude to post “You must be mentally challenged. Or a troll, or both. “

Bluesma

In all fairness, I have become aware that you are missing knowledge of certain concepts I have been refering to, and may be unable to comprehend. We cannot exchange any meaningful communication if you do not know what "subconscious" refers to, or the difference between "subjective" reality, and "objective" reality, or what "mental objects" are.
You would also need to understand the difference between "awareness" and "focus of thought".
Awareness is much wider and inclusive, focus is more specific. But just like in a photo, you can focus on different elements in it, one at a time, but your peripheral vision does not disappear- you remain aware of the other elements in the photo regardless of which part you are focusing on.

Your dictations and projections of your thoughts upon me are very rude as well, and illustrate one of my critiques of the techniques that attempt to erase self or separation , if taken to an extreme. The boundry between self and other become indistinguishable, so considerate behavior is handicapped.

edit on 27-9-2013 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)

What were your “critiques of the techniques that attempt to erase self or separation ,( if taken to an extreme) “.
Were they on this thread critique of being in the moment?
Thought substitution ( what you call “thought stopping”) was an example?
In the case of the boundry between self and other, if the other was perceived as part of you surely only if you are inconsiderate to yourself would your behaviour be handicapped to others/yourself.

I did not “dictate or project” your thoughts (the quotes were from you) I posted them and told you why you are not focused on the moment . Please do not accuse people of projecting/dictating your thoughts when they are in quotes and obviously directly from you.
It is obvious you are not in the moment as you said you are focused on PAST thoughts, meanings and emotion( and other thoughts and ideas ). I can’t make it simpler .
There is no shame in posting you are overwhelmed by thoughts and emotions.
Yes I agree you would need to understand the difference between "awareness" and "focus of thought".
In an out of focus photo -things are not able to be seen.
Like the moment when one is in a panic attack or overwhelmed with thoughts and emotions .

The individual is caused by the fear of not being so it will not give up it's life.
Then of course there is 'life' and the supposed 'life of the individual' - they conflict. The conflict will eventually wear one out.

1Learner
What you say is thoughtful, though, and I run into a barrier when you point out that there is basically nothing to be found and I start believing that as true.

If you really want to seek - then seek that which is seeking.