A Different Take On Christianity And Abortion

Originally posted by MarioOnTheFly
this subject has got me thinking now...about euthanasia...
Since everybody is more or less against it..

I'm for it. For any adult at any time for any reason. Not just for terminally ill.
Legalize Physician Assisted Suicide - ATS Thread

Originally posted by SearchLightsInc
I think Kali has brought up an excellent point in their OP and so far, no one has managed to successfully debunk what they've said.

If anything, this thread shows how religious people cherry pick from their religious texts. You will happily ignore something in genesis because it says so and so in Jeremiah

And you don't think the OP is cherry-picking?

reply to post by beezzer


Citing Genesis, the biblical answer to everything, the origin of the universe, earth and heaven, mankind, sin and the human condition is "cherry picking?" But surely, a prophet, waxing poetic on his relationship with God should carry more weight!

Originally posted by beezzer

Originally posted by SearchLightsInc
I think Kali has brought up an excellent point in their OP and so far, no one has managed to successfully debunk what they've said.

If anything, this thread shows how religious people cherry pick from their religious texts. You will happily ignore something in genesis because it says so and so in Jeremiah

And you don't think the OP is cherry-picking?

Not really no lol

reply to post by windword

Do you read the words you type? Killing an innocent animal to appease a "god" for one's shortcomings and guilt is NOT righteous. Did Jesus perform animal sacrifices? No, he did not. You know who else didn't believe in animal sacrifice? The Essenes! One Essene, sect known as the Nazarene, is also, coincidentally, the name for the first Christians!

You did not read my words clearly as my post above your quote here explained what apparently was not comprehended.

And I thought Yehushua Ha' Maschiac provided fish for the crowds? Are these the actions of one in His Father's distinct Image, that disproved of the killing of animals for nourishment as I stated was Allowed for such---even given Instruction with the Laws on what animals are fit for eating and not?

Have you read the Bible, or at the very least the Gospels?

How would you know this? Have you been in the position of contemplating having an abortion and were hence enlightened?

Why don't you go have a chat to some women who 'aborted' and ask them how 'good' it felt and whether their conscience nagged at them before, during and after.

If what you claim is so, and there are no accidents, everything is ordained, how can you disagree with any person's choices? Is rape also just a test, ordained by God?

Free will to sin.

How do you rectify the fact that the "giver of the law" and the 10 Commandments, promptly orders his people to kill, rape and steal? How do you rectify Numbers 5, where God instructs Moses on the "offering for jealousy", which results in abortion?

The God of Abrahan, Isaac and Jacob which is part of the Messiah's Lineage in the distinct Image does not condone any violation of the Commands of which would be a hypocrisy and I acknowledge too that there are distortions to texts of the Original Word and Testament (to be discerned via the Holy Spirit), hence why there is a special Warning too Given to any man making alterations to the Book of Revelation.

In regard to Numbers 5 addressing a misinterpretation.
www.gotquestions.org...

reply to post by PrimeLight


Are you suggesting that eating meals, of any kind, is sacrificial? No, it's NOT righteousness, killing an animal to appease and calm the wrath of an angry god because of one's own short commings and guilt.

How much more (un)appealing is a bloody human sacrifice at the hands of an angry crowd to this God?

You defend the outrageous actions and orders of this god of the Old Testament, like a good Christian apologetic, but you're righteously indignant at the thought of personal choice when it comes to reproduction? I think you're a hypocrite.

reply to post by Kody27

As the late and great Bill Hicks would say, "Well how f***ing scientific of you! I wasn't aware that you went through all that trouble." - in response to a fundamentalist Christian saying that they believed the world was 12,000 years old because they added up all the ages of people in the Bible haha.

Seriously though, I am kind of a hybrid pro-choice/pro-life, meaning that I believe abortion is ethically and morally acceptable up to a certain embryotic age.

I half agree with your stance that a fetus is only living tissue, and does not contain a "soul" so to speak, but not because he/she is or isn't breathing air. What the f*** is going on in your mind to think that breathing air makes you have a soul, makes you feel, makes you human? Oh yeah, you're a Christian, I forgot that you people don't think for yourselves, but just believe the mindless, ancient, and irrelevant drivel written down by a bunch of clueless humans thousands of years before modern science was even conceived of.

I've not once said that I believe in the Bible, in a subsequent post in this thread, I stated that I'm no longer Christian. I found this article, found it interesting and wanted to discuss why some Christians feel the way they do about abortion. Slow your roll lol.

reply to post by FlyersFan


My own personal morals? As I've said... I wouldn't have one unless my life were at risk, I believe my 13 year old child is owed that. I also believe that there is a point in development of the fetus where it is not simply tissue anymore. But those are my personal beliefs and morals and it isn't my right to impose my determination of when human life begins on others.

reply to post by beezzer


As windword said very well already, if Genesis is the go to guide for our origin story why not on when life begins? Not to mention that no where in the Bible is abortion forbidden. I don't believe that the commandment to not kill or murder is applicable considering that priests were able to cause miscarriages in unfaithful women.

reply to post by windword

Are you suggesting that eating meals, of any kind, is sacrificial? No, it's NOT righteousness, killing an animal to appease and calm the wrath of an angry god because of one's own short commings and guilt. How much more (un)appealing is a bloody human sacrifice at the hands of an angry crowd to this God?

You distort my words repeatedly applying new definitions of context (either deliberately or due to misunderstanding) and then judge me personally with insult. I think we are done here as we clearly speak a different language and mine is not based upon distorting for purpose of attack.

reply to post by Kali74

I don't believe that the commandment to not kill or murder is applicable considering that priests were able to cause miscarriages in unfaithful women.

Where is the scripture supporting this statement that appears to imply that this was actually Condoned by our Creator?

reply to post by PrimeLight


You've proven your alignment and approval of the atrocities of the god of the Old Testament in your rant on the wicked gays and by the condoning of animal and human sacrifice.

You twist the actions reported of Jesus feeding the masses fish as the same thing as animal sacrifice and then claim that Jesus eliminated the practice, because he himself was a human, blood sacrifice.

You don't know the difference between a sacrificial offering and a meal, nor do you understand the difference between nutrients furnished through the umbilical cord and breath, it's inhalation and exhalation through the lungs, after birth.

In regard to Numbers 5 addressing a misinterpretation.
www.gotquestions.org...

That apologetic website is full of bull! Of course it was abortion! What do think happens when a woman sleeps with a man?

Do you think the water was magic water, that automatically knew if a woman had been unfaithful, and so this magic water cause the woman's belly to swell and her "thigh" to rot, and afterward, she was to become become an outcast for the rest of her life? Or, is it more likely that the water contained herbs that induced abortion, making a pregnant woman's belly swell, and her rotten thigh was the dead fetus?

Of course, the woman might have been impregnated by her own husband, and still be condemned, just for being pregnant!

Of course, if she wasn't pregnant, the scripture says, then she may still conceive.

Number 5
Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 so that another man has sexual relations with her..............

When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.

reply to post by windword

You just don't quit with the distortion do you?

Where did I express that the gays on earth are wicked? Quote me on that. There was so much distortion in that paragraph and I am just too tired with errands to run to feel like dealing with such mounted idiocy right now from one that cannot comprehend the context and meanings of replies.

Feel free to go on with your rot and keep proving what a waste of time any intelligent based discourse is with you.

reply to post by windword

Are you suggesting that eating meals, of any kind, is sacrificial? No, it's NOT righteousness, killing an animal to appease and calm the wrath of an angry god because of one's own short commings and guilt.

Hi windword, I would like to address this in better tone. And thank you for your acceptance of apology as I was writing previous within a weary state of mind an body moreso prone to frustration.

There was a time too earlier in my path of seeking that I felt similar as you on these matters, until I was brought to understandings on why such was Instructed and Allowed.

The sacrificing of animals (killing still Allowed for nourishment regardless of Sacrificial Rites) was to demonstrate to mankind that nothing is free in this earthly world condition under sin (still within the influences of the evil fallen entities still in operation here). That in such a cursed fallen condition (due to the rebellions of the Adams), there is always a price to pay for such sins as the scripture below outlines. Such sacrifice was not Decreed in a Spirit of cruelty or hate, but for a Lesson of teaching for humanity to better understand the risk of penalty for their Violations against the Ways of the Good Spirit set aside from the ways of this earth.

"For the WAGES of sin is DEATH; but the gift of God is eternal life through Yehushua Christ our Lord."

In a furtherance to what I already implied previous posts, I do not believe our Creator ever condoned stoning (murder) and such, and this is the reason I attempted previously to explain that our Father in which the Son was Sent and Bore in His distinct Image would be no different. He did not Condone in Good Spirit the murder of His Son either, He, however Knew what the forces of this earth would do by their (in Spiritual essence) not so free will to sin.

There is always Accountability for sin, even with His Mercy, Love, Compassion on Offer Measured in Judgement and this is why I post here on the serious matter of murdering. I also apply such in matters regarding capital punishment. No human hand has the right to take away another human life other than in genuine self defense regarding kill or be killed situations. Hence why the Command is 'thou shall not murder', and NOT 'thou shall not kill' representing another distortion to scriptural based Instruction altering context entirely.

Furthermore, I am in acceptance to all your beliefs even if I do not agree and aim primarily to highlight misinterpretations to scripture. I can only prefer that any disagreements can be brought forth in better Spirit, which applies to myself of course.

Edit to add:

nor do you understand the difference between nutrients furnished through the umbilical cord and breath, it's inhalation and exhalation through the lungs, after birth.

The fact that breath occurs via 'external' oxygen within the placenta shows in furtherance that the 'fetus' is human and is Given at a very early stage what it needs for Life in the earthly condition.
www.urmc.rochester.edu...

reply to post by windword

Number 5 Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 so that another man has sexual relations with her.............. When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.

In the scripture you quoted above, you did not cite a source. The scripture by the very well translated source I follow mentions no such thing like 'her womb will miscarry', therefore I stand by the original link I provided which argues against the same misinterpretations based on mankind's distortion of scriptural texts, and that the method was to expose sin via physiological signs (after willfully swearing an oath to accept a curse if guilty of lying) and not used to deliberately induce miscarriage by those physiological reactions.
www.biblestudytools.com...

Respectfully, we can of course agree to disagree on all such matters of interpretation.

I can only testify of my own path, that when one is brought to understandings of the True Nature of our Creator, then it is easier to be able to discern the distortions by men to the Original Word of Holy Testament. For this, we are Called to study in seeking (with Guidance of the Holy Spirit) the Word as a whole (as I aim to do in furtherance in Guidance)---and without due faith lent, there is no way to achieve such bar Miraculous Intervention and it will remain part of the mysteries unattained by Design for those who do not love and yearn deeply for the Way, the Truth and the Life within the Body of Christ.

That gestation video I uploaded here forms just a small part of the many mysteries of our Creator and His Ways, and I would have hoped that is was watched by those led to the thread to increase their faith that the Ways of the Old Testament are not without their Credence still for adherence to the many Laws that still apply toward the Good Will on the narrow path---though we still fall short in our sins and folly without the Bridge of Grace through Christ.

More information on when the 'breath' for life becomes crucial for the early human earthen environment.
www.pennmedicine.org...

reply to post by PrimeLight


Primelight,

You can say that the Bible has been corrupted, and that all the violence, the hatred and disregard for human life, was never meant to part part of God's word. But the fact is that it's still there, and using the Bible to support a ban on a woman's right to choose not to conceive, or choose to discard that which she has conceived is intellectually dishonest.

There is way out of the conundrum, though, for Christians. That is to admit that Jesus thought the same thing as you do about the violence condoned in the Old Testament. That he was aligned with Essene, who believed the temple and it's priests had been corrupted, and that he was the "One" who they were waiting for, to translate the "LAW" for the new generations.

Unfortunately, the Essene teachings lead to Gnosticism, which was an unacceptable approach to spirituality to early Christian fathers.

reply to post by PrimeLight


I cited that scripture from here: www.biblegateway.com...

It was at the top of my Google search page, when I went to look for it, in answer to your previous post. I was delighted to see that translation, on my first click, because I've had this debate before. A Good Biblical Reason for Abortion

As far as the miracle of life being miraculous, I agree. But is human gestation any more miraculous than that of any other life form? What sets us apart and above all other life?

Are we not allowed to tend our own garden, to prune and weed out that which we don't want? Or, are we victims to our biology, and children MUST flow out of women according to their husband's sexual desire?

Just in case it hasn't been posted yet:

medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com...

fetal respiration,
the exchange of gases between the blood of the mother and that of the fetus through the placenta.

That is from a medical dictionary.

reply to post by windword

Primelight, You can say that the Bible has been corrupted, and that all the violence, the hatred and disregard for human life, was never meant to part part of God's word. But the fact is that it's still there, and using the Bible to support a ban on a woman's right to choose not to conceive, or choose to discard that which she has conceived is intellectually dishonest. There is way out of the conundrum, though, for Christians. That is to admit that Jesus thought the same thing as you do about the violence condoned in the Old Testament. That he was aligned with Essene, who believed the temple and it's priests had been corrupted, and that he was the "One" who they were waiting for, to translate the "LAW" for the new generations.

I do not understand why you persist in such distortion when I even expressed in pm that I have not endorsed such 'bannings' and that I only desire that we all lean toward the Good Will in Knowledge with our choices. I also did not ever state or even imply that all violence is against His Will by Word. Please desist from placing words in my mouth.

It should be known that Yehushua the Messiah was a student and follower of Original Torah. Are you not aware of this scripture from the Gospel?

Matthew 5:17-18 (CJB)
17 "Don't think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete. 18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah -- not until everything that must happen has happened.

I did not enter this thread to veer away too much away from the original topic. Will only further recommend one study the Bible more fervently on such matters to aid discernment before coming to conclusions.

P.S--If you are referencing the 'new international' (globalist) version of scripture, then all I can express is that you are subscribing to one of the most perverted 'modern' Bibles in existence. Such will place you on a road to error and May He teach you that which I cannot.

As far as the miracle of life being miraculous, I agree. But is human gestation any more miraculous than that of any other life form? What sets us apart and above all other life?

The Word answers that which was Made in the Image.

Are we not allowed to tend our own garden, to prune and weed out that which we don't want?

The 'tending' that is murder? Yes we are Allowed to murder, though one should rightly consider the potential consequences in their overall Judgement.

Or, are we victims to our biology, and children MUST flow out of women according to their husband's sexual desire?

So women do not become pregnant by their own will in sexual desire also? Are they all just 'victims' of the male will to penetrate? Even in situations of rape, one act of evil is not meant to be repayed by another in error.