A Different Take On Christianity And Abortion

thechristinaleft.org

The Bible Tells Us When A Fetus Becomes A Living Being

Many people think that a human being is created at the time of conception but this belief is not supported by the bible. The fact that a living sperm penetrates a living ovum resulting in the formation of a living fetus does not mean that the fetus is a living human being. According to the bible, a fetus is not a living person with a soul until after drawing its first breath.

After God formed man in Genesis 2:7, He “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and it was then that the man became a living being”. Although the man was fully formed by God in all respects, he was not a living being until after taking his first breath.

In Job 33:4, it states: “The spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.”

Again, to quote Ezekiel 37:5&6, “Thus says the Lord God to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live. And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live; and you shall know that I am the Lord.”

I grew up Christian, my whole childhood I went to churches that were more open minded, less dogmatic. The churches I went to weren't so judgemental, however I don't recall these "liberal" churches having a position on abortion. Looking I made the assumption that the churches I attended just decided abortion was a private matter, a kind of default pro-choice position. So I even though I grew up Christian Left, I never heard their opinion on the matter and to be honest and also never really thought much about the fact that no where in the bible is abortion, forbidden.

Females of most mammal species know natural ways to end a pregnancy. It has never been unknown to societies that women know these ways yet the Bible never mentions these ways as evil, a sin or abhorrent in anyway.

There is nothing in the bible to indicate that a fetus is considered to be anything other than living tissue and, according to scripture, it does not become a living being until after it has taken a breath.

reply to post by Kali74


Do you have children, Kali?

It's easy to dismiss the child as a growing mass of cells if you have never had one. I've gone 'round and 'round with this topic and it is one where there is never going to be a compromise.

According to some Christian sects, blood transfusions are a no-no. Medical intervention is a no-no.

I am of the mind that a developing, unborn child is an individual. I don't think that there will ever be an argument that will sway me to think otherwise.

I'll give you props for kicking off a different slant on the abortion debate, but I doubt that it'll be settled any time soon.

reply to post by beezzer


I have a 13 year old son. I also no longer consider myself Christian. I believe God is bigger than anyone can label, that all religions are just different attempts at paths leading to God for those that need road markers.

My purpose for doing this thread is to open up a different angle on the argument that in the Western world keeps the abortion debate alive... Christianity vs Pro-choice.

this subject has got me thinking now...about euthanasia...

Since everybody is more or less against it...having in mind the OP's quotes...is it moral than to keep people alive by artificial means (respirators for instance) those that are unable to take the breath themselves ?

Isn't this God's way of saying..."this body is dead...I don't give it breath any more" ? We thump our chest that we believe in morality imposed by God, but we actually go against it...for selfish reasons.

Anyway...topic will need a fire hose...

reply to post by Kali74


If a baby isn't considered one until it takes it's first breath, does being on a ventilator count? What would define first breath?

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by Kali74

 

If a baby isn't considered one until it takes it's first breath, does being on a ventilator count? What would define first breath?

Indeed...if we haven't invented all that tech...that keep people sort of "alive" when without that tech...they would surely be long dead...

What is natural than? what is God's will than ? What is moral? to go against what is unfolding on it's own ?

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by Kali74

 

If a baby isn't considered one until it takes it's first breath, does being on a ventilator count? What would define first breath?

To clarify my position I personally believe that a fetus becomes a human baby when it has developed it's organs and spinal column I also personally would never have an abortion, unless my life were threatened because I am already a mother and I wouldn't risk leaving my child. But that is me, my life, my beliefs... I don't think it's okay to impose my beliefs on others. I just wonder why so many Christians came to believe that abortions are against God when the bible doesn't decree that.

reply to post by Kali74

I just wonder why so many Christians came to believe that abortions are against God when the bible doesn't decree that.

Not only does the Bible NOT decry against natural abortions, herbs and other tricks, it condones it.

A Good Biblical Reason for Abortion

The Bible has a "first breath" philosophy, when it comes to defining the beginning of a individuals "life".

Beyond that, it's not rare for the God of the Old Testament to call for infanticide and the murder of pregnant women. William Lane Craig, a popular Christian apologists writes:

"But why take the lives of innocent children? The terrible totality of the destruction was undoubtedly related to the prohibition of assimilation to pagan nations on Israel's part. In commanding complete destruction of the Canaanites, the Lord says, 'You shall not intermarry with them, giving your daughters to their sons, or taking their daughters for your sons, for they would turn away your sons from following me, to serve other gods' (Deut 7.3-4). […]

God knew that if these Canaanite children were allowed to live, they would spell the undoing of Israel. […] Moreover, if we believe, as I do, that God's grace is extended to those who die in infancy or as small children, the death of these children was actually their salvation. We are so wedded to an earthly, naturalistic perspective that we forget that those who die are happy to quit this earth for heaven's incomparable joy. Therefore, God does these children no wrong in taking their lives."
www.theguardian.com...

Great thread.
I find it funny, that even though I have heard Christians talk about abortion many times, I've never questioned where they got that belief from. I guess I always supposed it was from the Bible - but I guess I was wrong about that.

Just looked up some of the history:

In Christianity, Pope Sixtus V (1585–90) is noted as the first Pope to declare that abortion is homicide regardless of the stage of pregnancy; the Catholic Church had previously been divided on whether it believed that abortion was murder, and did not begin vigorously opposing abortion until the 19th century.

But it seems like it has been debated since ancient Greece - so I imagine it has always been a heavily debated subject.

But would be nice to get an explanation on why it is Christians think that abortion displeases God.

reply to post by Kali74


The Bible has many, many, many passages that are entirely subject to individual interpretation. When it comes to human life... personally, I would prefer to err on the side of the unborn.

reply to post by redoubt


I can respect that much of the Bible is based on individual interpretation, but it does seem clear on this debate in two ways. Humans aren't alive until God breathes his breath into them and none of the methods of abortion in those times is forbidden, 'killing' the unborn isn't mentioned as a sin.

More importantly regarding individual interpretation why is your interpretation more important than mine? To the point of outlawing my decisions about my life? Not to mention law is supposed to be secular.

Originally posted by Kali74
I don't think it's okay to impose my beliefs on others. I just wonder why so many Christians came to believe that abortions are against God when the bible doesn't decree that.

I belief pedophilia is wrong. Should I not impose THAT belief onto others who may disagree with me?

reply to post by beezzer


I would like to further expound on the first breathe. Even in the amniotic sac, the child/baby shares everything with the mother, right? Oxygen, food, literally feeding off the womans life force if you will. How is this not the same as breathing? If not say, the natural respirator in the female body that nurtures the child until he/she comes and takes there "own" first breathe of oxygen?

If i'm off key let me know... Just a thought, I'll leave a penny and take a penny...

reply to post by sulaw


That's why I wanted a better definition/interpretation of "first breath".

reply to post by Kali74

... why is your interpretation more important than mine? To the point of outlawing my decisions about my life? Not to mention law is supposed to be secular.

I simply stated my personal opinion... which is all any of us can do.

But, for the heck of it, try this...
I think that I am right but your opinion is more important than my own.

It just doesn't work like that, lol.
We each - every single one of us - form opinions based on our personality and beliefs... so, it's natural that we hold them above those around us.

Aside from that, all I said was that the Bible has many areas that are very much up for interpretation. I also included that if there was a mistake waiting... I would prefer to err on the side of human life.

I am quite content with that...

reply to post by beezzer


Yup, I knew what you were getting at beezzer, ol buddy ol pal. That's why I wanted to expound to see if anyone would bite further.

I like the different take Kali is bringing, but personally I'm sitting next to you with a debate that will never have a resolution... Well.... Unless "God" himself or the Ascended Masters manifest and "Shed some light" on this discussion...

Your comment beezzer prompted that different thought in me, as I am a new father and my daughter is now 14months... I never thought of my previous comment before you said what you did...

I'm having a weird day~

reply to post by sulaw


Having children definitely puts a different perspective on things.

*Congrats!*

reply to post by beezzer


There's nothing debatable about pedophilia.

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by beezzer

 

There's nothing debatable about pedophilia.

And my point has just been made.

Originally posted by redoubt
reply to post by Kali74

 

... why is your interpretation more important than mine? To the point of outlawing my decisions about my life? Not to mention law is supposed to be secular.

I simply stated my personal opinion... which is all any of us can do.

But, for the heck of it, try this...
I think that I am right but your opinion is more important than my own.

It just doesn't work like that, lol.
We each - every single one of us - form opinions based on our personality and beliefs... so, it's natural that we hold them above those around us.

Aside from that, all I said was that the Bible has many areas that are very much up for interpretation. I also included that if there was a mistake waiting... I would prefer to err on the side of human life.

I am quite content with that...

Well of course your opinion counts more to you, mine counts more to me too

The point of my reply is that Bible actually seems pretty clear on this leaving little room for personal interpretation. Humans aren't alive until they breathe and killing the unborn isn't a sin. So where did this abortion is against God argument come from AND...

Why are the ones who believe life begins at conception able to determine my choices when I don't believe that life begins at conception?