Furore over NSW candidate's gay remarks

"...born with predispositions that are not good."

Considering how crappy the world is right now, I can see an appeal to returning to the dark ages.

Sir Hugh Maharggs: "Homosexuals can't swim, they attract enemy radar, they attract sharks, they insist on being placed at "the captain's table", they get up late, they nudge people whilst they're shooting. They muck about. Imagine... the fear... of knowing you have a gay man on board a boat, when you retire at night you think to yourself "God... will I wake up and find everybody dead?" You can't run a ship like that."

I try hard to keep my thinking seperated from my feelings on most issues here. I've hit the Rant forum a few times, but other than that, I try to find out what's true first, then I argue.

"I'm not against these people, but ultimately when you look at our society it is not going to work.

I find that difficult to support or oppose, because it's unclear what he meant by it. Whatever it is, I don't think it's backed up by facts. But it's hard to tell without knowing the context.

"This is one of the things that happens in this lifestyle," Mr Green said

I have the same uncertainty about this comment, but if he means Gays are more likely to die early than Straights, it seems to be a repitition of his other statement:

"They have a lower life expectancy, homosexual men ... based on facts."

So, is there support for this? From Medscape, which seems to be a nuetral source:

Men who have sex with men (MSM) are a well-documented group at elevated risk for HIV infection. Indeed, estimates suggest that 9% to 27% of gay and bisexual men and MSM in the United States are currently living with HIV infection. Further, recently released statistics from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention indicate that the rate of new HIV diagnoses among MSM is more than 44 times that of heterosexual men.

And recently, a study reported greatly elevated suicide mortality rates among Danish men in registered same-gender domestic partnerships. These findings suggest that men with minority sexual orientation may experience elevated risk for premature death from multiple causes.

In the 1 existing general population–based study reported to date, which was from Denmark and limited to individuals in registered same-gender domestic partnerships, mortality among men in these same-gender partnerships was significantly higher than among Danish men in general.

www.medscape.com...
And from PFLAG Phoenix, cleraly a gay supportive site:

Suicide is the leading cause of death among gay and lesbian youth.
Gay and lesbian youth are 2 to 6 times more likely to attempt suicide than heterosexual youth.
Over 30% of all reported teen suicides each year are committed by gay and lesbian youth.
Gays and lesbians are at much higher risk than the heterosexual population for alcohol and drug abuse.
Approximately 30% of both the lesbian and gay male populations have problems with alcohol.
Substantially higher proportions of homosexual people use alcohol, marijuana or coc aine than is the case in the general population.
55% of gay men have had a substance abuse problem sometime in their life.

www.pflagphoenix.org...

He said that until the early 1970s being gay was seen as a "disorder".

Which is completely true. The American Psychiatric Association removed homosexuality from it's list of mental disorders in 1973.

"Some would say people are born with this predisposition. I say to that that we are all born with predispositions that are not good."

Which is also widely considered to be true. After all, there are very few people willing to defend the notion that we enter life without predispositions towards selfishness, and greed. As we grow older we discover innate desires for other "not good" predispositions. There are few among us who were born saintly and stayed that way.

reply to post by skalla


Those aren't assumptions I am simply stating facts. I'm quite open minded and call it how I see it. Suggesting I buddy up with the OP is a bit childish.

reply to post by jrod


Not facts, just return prejudice.

Originally posted by MrSpad

Originally posted by Cinrad
Short article

Really what did this guy say that was so offensive? He simply stated some facts that informed his opinion when asked about what he thought of the gay lifestyle.

If you do not understand what is offensive about what he said then it does not suprise me that you think any of it involved facts.

So truth is offensive today, is it? This is the state of society controlled under indoctrination and propaganda. The fact that gay men, on average, have hundreds if not thousands of sex partners is off-limits, when obviously such promiscuity puts anyone in jeopardy of acquiring Aids. The fact that aids was first called GRID (gay related) by the medical community is off-limits as offensive. The fact that nearly 1 in 5 homosexual men are infected in large cities is deemed offensive. The fact that drugs are rampaging through the homosexual community is deemed offensive. The fact that homosexuals predominantly spread the AIDS virus to the rest of the heterosexual community through dirty needles, donated blood, dentist offices and unclean equipment and bisexual sex is deemed offensive. The fact that it is a deathstyle, not a lifestyle, is deemed offensive. The fact that it is a sterile future for these 'couples' is deemed offensive. The fact that the homosexual lobbies lie and deceive - admitted by a multitude of homosexual authors - is deemed offensive. The fact that 25% of new aids infections are acquired deliberately in the homosexual communities, deliberately acquired by men TIRED OF FEARING the infection and having that fear cramp their sexual practices, is deemed offensive.

This is the attitidude killing more and more homosexual men and now those in the heterosexual communities adopting the same flagrant sexual practices. Labelling truth as offensive is killing them. And yet the propaganda fascists are out in force towing the propaganda lie that a homosexual is that funny charming loveable underdog as shown to us on television and film, just like a lesbian is a voluptuous feminine woman. Meanwhile, thousands more are becoming infected as they continue on in insane behaviours now being taught to our children in school as normal. And here's proof that it's propaganda and an agenda - if we were dealing with a group of straight young women engaging in hundreds of sexual partners, drug addictions and actively seeking infections of a deadly disease - we'd all be discussing it and never using the word 'offensive'.

Lies are killing them. People telling them "take pride" is killing them.
You wouldn't tell that to your 16 old daughter already on her 40th sexual partner and partaking in sodomy, a known high risk activity for acquiring aids, high on meth for a more 'animalistic sexual ' experience. So please tell me, why won't you show the same tough love to a homosexual that is on the same death spiral?

Truth can hurt. Truth can offend. Truth may very well save a life.

reply to post by MrSpad

I quite agree that it can be seen as offensive. Now, to consider whether they are factually correct, a different subject.

I considered the statements made in an earlier post, identified two as questionable, and the rest as factual.

If you disagree, I'd love to hear your position.

I could definitely see people taking offense over this, but i also understand that he grew up in a time when homosexuality was more of a taboo and people weren't really allowed to be open about it otherwise they would get beaten or face sever persecution. I'll be honest, i used to say some pretty nasty things about people who were gay.Not because i had personally had any bad experiences with gay people but mostly because i hadn't really had any interaction with them. I have since grown up and realized that just because someone chooses to lay down with someone of the same sex doesn't mean they are a bad person. You have to wonder what it is about people being gay that rubs some people the wrong way(pun intended).

Godtards look at relationships through an insular 'procreative prism'. That is, unless the by-product of a union between two people results in conception, it's effectively null / failed (i.e., no new vulnerable child to molest with ideological indoctrination). Therefore, relationships which cannot spawn progeny (naturally, that is) are subsequently labelled 'wrong' or a "disorder".

Kind of ironic, though, given procreation is a wholly evolutionary trait and has nothing to do with any magical man floating in the sky who uses his collection of male prepuce to perform "miracles". Then again, religion is the quintessence of retarded contradiction, so comments like this should hardly be a surprise from a group who have been found to be intellectually inferior to free-thinking, secular people.

Remember how they said homosexuality leads straight into bestiality...?

It is just a simple fact:

Homosexuality cannot support a civilization.

FACT

don't care how victimized you feel by your choices this is simply the reality of the situation.

there is no egg to impregnate at all You still need a woman for the Adoptions, test-tube babies, traditional surrogacy and gestational surrogacy.


I have never hated anyone over their sexual orientation infact my housemate is in a homosexual relationship, more power to him he has a great personality and is a great person so are the two that live accross the road from me GREAT PEOPLE.

The thing is I don't hear them screaming about how they should be respected for their choices I respect them for their actions, compassion and personality.

Gay people being hated on re-evaluate why you are being targeted I doubt it is because of your sexuality unless you started coming onto a straight male and wouldn't take no for an answer then started screaming how he is a homo-phobe.

This is the crux of why you and religious people are marginalized because you try to force feed your beliefs to others that have their own and when you don't get your way you cry and whinge and moan and take it to the public arena like you are worth anything.

Your accomplishments make you not who you have sex with.


So to all the gay people out there that think they are victims of some great purge or exile, perhaps it is just cause you are an bad person ( gay-dar does not function like people pretend it does )

So stop trying to shovel this crap onto people that don't care about it and maybe these people would not have so many issues.

The more you say " YOU HAVE TO RESPECT ME CAUSE I AM A HUMAN BEING TOO" is the moment I loathe you and I don't even care about your sexual orientation you have not earned my respect so why should I give it freely.

I dislike murderers more than gays but apparantly because im not totally hip and down and watch gay porn I commit hate crimes.

This is what I have been told before by gay people that if I don't have sex with a man once in my life I am a homo-phobe and will never be welcome in the gay community.


Just like religion I think these people are stuck into a paradygm of thinking.

Sometimes people don't like what you like, IT IS NOT OK TO GET MAD AT THIS.

People that claim hate-crimes are usually suffering from victim syndrome and are trying to push their agenda for their own machinations which is entirely wrong and basically the definition of wrong Irreverent

ir·rev·er·ent
/iˈrev(ə)rənt/
Adjective
Showing a lack of respect for people or things that are generally taken seriously.
Synonyms
disrespectful - flippant - impious

That being the propagation of our species.


TLDR : Homosexuality is basically a civilization committing a slow agonizing suicide.

Okay he has the freedom to his opinions, likewise people have the freedom of their opinions of him, this "liberal gay loving" label gets tossed around far too much.

if he is claiming them as fact that is when things go wrong because he fails to 'prove' any facts

Originally posted by Gestas
It is just a simple fact:

Homosexuality cannot support a civilization.

FACT

This is what I have been told before by gay people that if I don't have sex with a man once in my life I am a homo-phobe and will never be welcome in the gay community.



TLDR : Homosexuality is basically a civilization committing a slow agonizing suicide.

edit on 22-8-2013 by Gestas because: (no reason given)

First off, who told you that? Because honestly, that is just totally whack (for lack of a better word). Are you just exaggerating to make a point? I honestly find it very hard to believe that gay men have told you that. Maybe one whacked out tweaker told you that, but you used the word "people" indicating you had been told that multiple times. As a gay guy, I have never myself, nor have I heard anyone else tell a straight guy he must have sex with a man once in his lifetime or he's a homophobe. I'm really sorry people told you that, because that's just crazy talk.

Secondly, why would a heterosexual man want to be welcome in the gay community? Seriously, why? I mean, it's one thing to be friendly and cordial with people of all walks of life, but you make it sound like you're wanting to be best friends and hang out with the gays in their bars, clubs, etc. . . . I'm just asking is all. Feel free to clarify that for me. Thanks!

reply to post by Darth_Prime

Dear Darth_Prime,

I agree with you that some of his statements, as I understand them, are unproved opinions, but certainly some of them are facts.

Would you consider my earlier post?
www.abovetopsecret.com...

If you disagree, I'd be glad to hear of it.

With respect,
Charles1952

While there's nothing wrong with warning gay men against the risks of HIV, using HIV solely in that way also carries risks.

I'm reminded of some numbers, although I'll dispense with what comes after the dot, and just round them off.

Australia has about 22 million people.
It has 35 000 HIV infected people.

The US has over 300 million people.
It has 1.3 million infected people.
African Americans, despite being a quarter of the population, bear 40 percent of HIV infections.
Some documentaries now say that that the black population in the US is infected to the same degree as the southern African pandemic (the sub-Saharan African pandemic accounts for 98 percent of global cases, which are believed to be heterosexually transmitted), and that not a single legislation has been passed to lower that rate (lowering incarceration for the war on drugs, or providing condoms in prisons, for example).

South Africa has about 50 million people.
We have 5.5-6 million infected people.
By 1998 a million people had already died of AIDS.
My numbers were conservative - under Mbeki's AIDS dissident inspired policies 365 000 people needlessly died, including 35 000 babies that were infected.
Some say former President Mbeki should be brought to trial, or at least some form of truth commission.

While gay people have done very well in some countries in bringing infection and death rates down, and not so well in others, thinking globally it is to me a tragedy that HIV/AIDS is simply used to discuss gay people.

To me that is proof of the great harm and distraction in religion, particularly religions that dismiss condoms and proven public health policies, and who think that a message of guilt, shame and simply telling people to be faithful or celibate will actually make them so.

Of course talking about HIV brings up the high risk groups, and the sense that everything only exists in large amounts.
Well no, people with HIV are not just black or gay.
People hit small odds every day.
I recently heard of five white, mature women who were all infected by one white heterosexual male.
I saw a similar case on Oprah in the US.
www.oprah.com...

While many younger gay men need the message, they are not the only ones.
Everyone is at risk.
Let's not let that message get swamped.

Stigmatizing HIV/AIDS with homosexuality bolsters homophobia.
As if gay people actually created the virus, and it also falsely dismisses a very courageous struggle by gay AIDS activists from everything including campaigns for blood safety; protests against big pharma profiteering, to becoming human guinea pigs and resisting a disinterestedl bureaucracy - struggles that would help other groups.
But apart from writing themselves out of socially desirable history with AIDS, the Christian mainstream STILL abuses it, and it's made entire groups of people feel unduly "safe" and non-affected.
It essentially tells people that HIV/AIDS is a "gay plague".

And what did the big Christians do apart from gleefully pointing fingers?
Well, until Franklin Graham made HIV/AIDS an issue, not much else really.
Yeah, those big movers for social change - what a bloody joke, even when the churches had AIDS.
Back then it must have been the loneliest place to have AIDS on earth.
What a shame.
It has changed though, many churches here are helping. Others are exploiting it and promising fake cures.
It could be better in many quarters, and nobody should point fingers.
Humanity just didn't respond very well - delusions of grandeur I suppose.

Let's hope we do better with various drug resistant forms of TB.
Already I saw on Aljazeera that doctors are being censured by governments for speaking on it.
No country wants to be the center of a new plague.
Sound familiar?

Oh, why is it always the poor, the hungry, the sick, the widowed and orphaned, the dying and the stigmatized who must struggle for change?

reply to post by Gestas


Gestas ..... you need to move out

Those are your firm beliefs & you live with a gay housemate. Do you actually get into heated discussions about your perspective on the homosexual community.

And as for this ....

This is what I have been told before by gay people that if I don't have sex with a man once in my life I am a homo-phobe and will never be welcome in the gay community.

I am sure there are idiots among the gay community too, same as the straight cohort ... we certainly have that much in common.

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by Cinrad

 

I'm not entirely sure what he said or inferred about gay people or their supposed "lifestyle"?



If it's AIDS, at least 300 000 heterosexuals died of AIDS in South Africa between 1999-2008, when it could have been prevented.

And still today, Christian fundamentalist monsters and total demoniacs who call themselves "apostles" and "evangelists" tell the dumb-as-dirt gullible flock that they can cure AIDS.
And they send infected people back into the community, telling them they are healed.
www.bbc.co.uk...

Yea but this is not as stupid as the gay men and drug users that kept on with there strange ways long after being warned. I mean really at some point........

reply to post by Logarock


Same as straight people with their drug use

whilst i understand that Anal sex has a higher risk of HIV virus, straight people also practice that, they also use drugs and some with dirty needles,

reply to post by Logarock

No I'd disagree.
Taking somebody who after much effort finally got tested and may have started treatment, and then some religious guru destroys all that is just beyond tragic.
Furthermore, if he or she believes they are healed they can have unprotected sex and infect their partners.

I'd say that's on par with selling "medicinal concoctions" that claim or strongly imply to treat and even cure HIV/AIDS.
Most of these concoctions have now been taken off the market until they prove their claims (or even safety), while others have downgraded their claims.
This is usually done by complaints to the Advertising Complaints Commission, but until now it seems religious crusades don't fall under that consumer protection.
To their credit, many newspapers in SA no longer advertise groups who claim to cure HIV.

Also, as with TB medication, when the course is interrupted resistance can develop.
That could be spreading resistant forms of viruses, and thus it is not merely self-harm when messing with medicines and viruses.