Annie talks to ground zero about Roswell...Never heard her story..Interesting

reply to post by 727Sky


For the debunkers,what about the crash that happened before Roswell?The one in missouri that no one has made a dime off of?There is even a picture that was taken that night with men holding up the Alien.

Originally posted by Ectoplasm8

Originally posted by Hongkongphooey
Constructed the same way??? How do you figure that?? A bike and Concorde both have wheels, seats and have metal construction however they hardly have the same construction or mode of flight, do they?

So you're saying if you blindly walked up to a crash site of a bike with a few pieces left behind, and a crash site of a Concorde with equal amounts of pieces left behind. You would expect them to leave the same type and size of crash material as each other? That's a silly comparison, but makes my point nevertheless. Let's make it even more relatable to Roswell. Say it was pieces of a Concorde from 2013 that came crashing down on the ranch instead of a "flying saucer". Or take any one of the highly advanced aircraft we have today. Relative to the time in 1947, it would be a craft years ahead of it's time. You don't think something completely unrelatable to weather balloon cargo construction would have been left in those cases? Again, we're talking about small lightweight i-beams, and foil. That's all that was left on the scene. It's ridiculous to think nothing construction-wise was left that we couldn't draw a line straight to weather balloon cargo, if it was some exotic craft.

-I-beams found - Same construction method used for weather balloon cargo.
-Foil-like material found - Same construction method used for weather balloon cargo.
-Size of the material found - Same size as weather balloon cargo.

Now, give me something not relatable to weather balloon cargo construction involved in this "crash". The fact is you can't. People run off with "Well they said the properties of this material was super strong." As I pointed out, this wasn't the typical type of rawin balloon to measure wind speed, the balloons that would crash on these farms. It was a balloon designed to travel miles into the atmosphere and maintain a consistent height beyond that of typical weather balloons to listen for Soviet atomic weapon testing. Naturally it would have been designed stronger to withstand different type of forces for prolonged periods. Hence using the successful time-tested rawin type of construction, but with strengthened materials.

Originally posted by Hongkongphooey
Finally to answer your question: Like you the military sought to find something that could be described in a similar way that was not the actual crash material. The sticks you referred to were described by witnesses as a balsa wood material that was indistructable. Tin foil when crumpled will not return to its original state and fibre optic cable is hardly rubber hose!

"Fiber optic cable" was never described by Mac Brazel, Jesse Marcel, or Jesse Marcel Jr. That's just more rubbish added to the story years later.

Also, for materials that's supposed to be so indestructible, it sure broke off in small pieces relative to a large spacecraft. Nothing bigger than 3 feet. Kind of a flimsy way to design and construct a spacecraft that would have to travel light years to arrive here on Earth, or any planet. You know why there were small pieces instead of large sections? Because weather balloon cargo was no larger than 5 feet. Completely consistent with the size of the material found, and inconsistent with a large spacecraft thousands+ years ahead of us.

edit on 20-8-2013 by Ectoplasm8 because: (no reason given)

Your assuming that it was a small amount of debris, you obviously have not researched the subject entirely like have and just take your info from some dumbed down 'pro government; wikileaks site or like! The fild debris was described a very large and there were in fact two sights not one, kind of strange for a weather balloon to crash in two places, miles apart isn't it? If it was just a weather Balloon why did the Army Air Force send out squads of men, with tight security, to recover every piece of material from the fields and make sure no piece of debris was left behind??? Kind of strange for a balloon, isn't it??? Why did they threaten witnesses, if it was just a balloon??? I can understand 1 or two people making stuff up but over 300 people with their own little piece of the story, pieced together to show yhe whole story? From, debris to bodies, to child like coffins, to press releases, to cargo transported across country, to secret storage facilities for said cargo, to witnesses being threatened, all for a ballooon? REALLY? REALLY? DON'T THINK SO!

Originally posted by Hongkongphooey
Your assuming that it was a small amount of debris, you obviously have not researched the subject entirely like have and just take your info from some dumbed down 'pro government; wikileaks site or like! The fild debris was described a very large and there were in fact two sights not one, kind of strange for a weather balloon to crash in two places, miles apart isn't it? If it was just a weather Balloon why did the Army Air Force send out squads of men, with tight security, to recover every piece of material from the fields and make sure no piece of debris was left behind??? Kind of strange for a balloon, isn't it??? Why did they threaten witnesses, if it was just a balloon??? I can understand 1 or two people making stuff up but over 300 people with their own little piece of the story, pieced together to show yhe whole story? From, debris to bodies, to child like coffins, to press releases, to cargo transported across country, to secret storage facilities for said cargo, to witnesses being threatened, all for a ballooon? REALLY? REALLY? DON'T THINK SO!

No, the pieces found were small. I never mentioned anything about the debris field. Reread what I said. And since you brought it up, Jesse Marcel did say the debris field was larger than a typical weather balloon debris field. Which is consistent with Project Mogul since balloons carried many more pieces than rawin targets did.

Ah yes, the typical "You just don't know all the facts" tactic used by the believers. You seriously think I've only read articles or stories about Roswell from the perspective of skeptics? That I'm being swayed by someone else's or some group's point of view about the case? You're completely wrong. This is my doing with absolutely no influence by anyone else. If you don't believe that, link me to the article that talks about the weather balloon cargo and spacecraft crash as I have. I've never seen it. I'll guarantee I know as much about the case, as most anyone here. What you accuse me of, is exactly what most believers of this phenomenon do. They will read a few articles online or watch UFO specific television programs and base their opinion on that. Never searching for the complete story or coming to their own personal conclusions. They view it through the eyes of biased reporting and that's good enough "investigation" for most. I'm not the one that falls in that category.

There was no story for 30 years. For that entire period, not one person came forward about anything to do with flying saucers or alien bodies. No mention of seeing alien bodies for 30 years? Seriously? That is until Stanton Friedman interviewed Jesse Marcel in 1978. After that, the National Inquirer got a hold of the story and more "witnesses" came out of the woodwork. I guess the "death threat" veil magically lifted in 1978? If you were even around in the 70's, you'd know the National Inquirer was a journalistic piece of garbage back then. Publishing articles with zero or very little diligence into the stories of the witnesses. It was a sensationalistic Magazine/newspaper. Equivalent to the Weekly World News today. Basically, live in Roswell in the 40's? You or someone you know in the military? Tell your story and get paid. The story has been blown hugely out of proportion without one single piece of physical evidence. to back up any claim.

I see with all your posturing you've had a big sip of the Roswell 'Kool-Aid'. Every witness is telling the truth, every deathbed confession is truthful, any and every unverifiable story is gospel. There's no arguing points with someone that carries that type of naive mentality and lacks the need to question the validity of said facts.

Yes I was around in the 70's thank you very much and I know what a piece of garbage the National Enquirer is even though I am not from the USA however, I also know that project moghul would not have caused the kind of secrecy and cover up that existed. Yes it was a secret project but it was a balloon and your telling me no one at the 509th Nuclear Air base least of all the Head of Intelligence, the Base Commander nor anyone else knew that this was a weather balloon and that the Air Force changed their official account 4 times over a BALLOON??? Stop it, it's not me who drinks the Kool Aid! I also find your 'kool aid' remark insulting as I know what that refers too (many people in Jonestown died drinking that stuff).

Now as to no one talking for 30 years, that is understandable is it not? people were frightened because they had been threatened, then suddenly the story's out, in the newspapers, books, TV, its everywhere and then witnesses think, well what have i got to lose now, its already out there! Not so laughable as you think, in fact I think it is human nature!

The story has been pieced together not all at once but over many years, if people were copying each other their stories would all have been identical or close with small variations, but they were not! They all had different pieces of the story from rank and file infantrymen, intelligence staff, drivers, pilots, security officers, radio presenters, ranch hands, base commanders, funeral directors, nurses, policemen, firemen, pilots who flew the wreckage debris, on and on all with different details, different pieces of the puzzle.

I believe the majority and especially those that are credible and have no reason to lie, people like Jesse Marcel and his son, Walter Haut who signed an affidavit saying he saw the bodies and touched the debris, Oliver Henderson who not only flew the wreckage but saw the alien bodies and Colonel Edwin Easley was the Provost Marshal at Roswell. He said he had sworn a security oath and could not talk about the crash. When asked if the extraterrestrials theories were on the right track, however, Easley agreed. Easley admitted they held Brazel at the base under armed guard for several days!

I don't believe every witness, especially the government because they have proved themselves time and time again, not only with Roswell (If they told the truth why have they changed THEIR truth 4 times) but their credibility stinks when you learn about the Gulf of Tonkin, Bay of Pigs, Warren Commission, CIA MK Ultra Programme and 9-11 cover up! as i said why would anyone believe the official story when the US government lies time and time again???

Originally posted by Ectoplasm8
Weather Balloon Cargo Material in the late 40's:
-Small I-Beams
-Foil Material
-3-5 Foot in Size

Crashed Roswell "Flying Saucer" Material in 1947:
-Small I-Beams
-Foil Material
-Pieces found No More Than 3 Feet

Notice anything common between the two? Anyone want to guess at the likelihood or chances that pieces from a spacecraft from another world thousands of years more advanced than us would be constructed exactly as weather balloon cargo from Earth at that time? Just so happens to be in the same small proportions as balloon cargo as well. Hmmmmm...

What you are forgetting is, there is no proof the mogal balloons were made this way, the mogal balloon story came much later, there is no balloon to look at, how do you know they have not painted a picture of construction to fit in with the Roswell crash debris to discredit it.

Originally posted by 727Sky
There is an advantage to living 12 hours ahead of the states. I can listen to ground Zero or Coast to Coast when day light and not past my bed time..It is 0951 8/20/2013 here and just heard an interesting caller....

Ground Zero is talking about Area 51 hanger 18 et al..... In 2009 witnesses the who came forward about the Roswell crash, before they died. etc etc Most on this sight (ATS) know the dummy drop the airforce said happened (bodies) did not happen until the mid 50's so that is a crock and just one more lie...

Annie calls in she was born in 1937 and at the age of 10 years old the crash happened. Her father was a military crash investigator contracted through General Dynamics...He always had a suit case packed by the door and was ready to go at a moments notice.

He got the call for the crash investigation at Roswell. He went and came back home and kinda spilled the beans to the family. He was one of the guys who flew to Washington with some of the parts and 2 or three bodies from the crash..according to her.

Her story and the way she told it was very interesting...Something happened approx 5 years ago when her father was 96 years old...He or she made a comment (don't remember the particulars) to an investigator and her father got a phone call that scared him so bad he ended up going to the hospital...He died recently and she being old says no reason to hide the truth....etc etc

I am busy packing and getting ready for a Golf tournament so I do not claim everything in this post is spot on just what I heard while running around like a head with it's chicken off....

Maybe one of our member can post a transcript or sound track from the Radio show...I have no idea on how to find much less post to ATS....If someone can not post..... for those who are interested about what might have happened many years ago try and catch a rebroadcast?

I was not at Roswell nor was I part of any investigation so for the the stories, 'told by death bed confessions', and those who know they do not have that much longer to live....Well they have a bit more weight with me than the lies and propaganda that seems to be the SOP for some government agencies..

These are just stories with no pics so take it for what it is worth to you. Myself, something happened, and the total truth has not been revealed IMO...Was it an Alien craft or a weather balloon? Both have an element of truth if the stories are to be believed....regardless interesting...

The best signature I have read for ages, brilliant

reply to post by Hongkongphooey

You're taking a twisted path down a bunch of different stories told with everything based on word of mouth and nothing physical to prove any of it. Your examples of witnesses shows your lack of addressing everything involved with what was said or done by those witnesses and honing in on what fits into your belief. One example you gave is Walter Haut. His story became progressively more detailed as he aged. His initial role was writing and putting out the press release. He later stated in 1979 for a book about Roswell, that he had very little involvement in the case. In an interview in 1989, he said he knew nothing of what was recovered. In the early 90's, he and several other enthusiasts opened the International UFO Museum and Research Center in Roswell. Several years later, all of a sudden he was stating that he was directly involved with the case seeing alien bodies and handling the actual materials found. That's what you consider a credible witness? That's the perfect example of how deeply believers investigate these cases and what's behind the witnesses. There is no investigation at all. Only viewing these beliefs through the eyes of biased reporting or writing, with those stories conveniently leaving out the full details.

I'm getting tired of wasting the energy repeating the same things over and over and hijacking this thread. But, I'll say it one last time. This wasn't a typical "balloon". It was a classified, it was secret, it was something that the military/government didn't want leaked out. It was a completely different time and different mindset. WWII just ended, atomic weapon development was a real concern, the country was paranoid with fear of bombing. Even the UFO phenomenon itself was in it's infancy. The military still hadn't done a study and also had no idea what to think. An unidentified flying object didn't necessarily mean an alien spacecraft then either. It could just as easily meant a Russian spy plane.

The very basis and crutch of this entire story hinges on this material found as described at the time by Mac Brazel and Jesse Marcel. A simple explanation of what it was, destroys this entire case. I'm not disputing if something came crashing down on that ranch or not. Something did. But the similarities to cargo carried by weather balloons in the late 1940's is far too close to that of our own Earthly explanation, to ignore it for this fantastical tale. If you don't see the incredible commonalities between the two, you're bypassing this simple observation for the hyped story of alien spacecraft.

Originally posted by biggm
What you are forgetting is, there is no proof the mogal balloons were made this way, the mogal balloon story came much later, there is no balloon to look at, how do you know they have not painted a picture of construction to fit in with the Roswell crash debris to discredit it.

Rawin targets were built lightweight, with balsawood i-beams, reflective foil and were no more than 5 feet. That's a known fact. Exactly how the object found in Roswell was constructed. Only with the object in Roswell, it was made using the same type of material, but was strengthened to sustain high altitudes and for long periods of time. Hence this "super strong" material. If you're carrying something high altitude to listen for Soviet atomic weapon testing, logically you're going to stick with a time-tested method of using balloons with cargo attached. A proven method for years.

I'm baffled at how the obvious simple explanation goes right out the window so easily. An alien spacecraft is much more exciting, sure. But you have to use common sense.

Good gravy....there were two crash sites....60 miles apart.....one day apart....bodies and a live one or two...

that is very interesting, i have seen 2 ufos

make that 3

That is all very interesting, i'd like to know more

You have to ask yourself also why would Walter Haut by orders of base commander William Blanchard put out a press release stating they captured a flying disc,did they view the crash site first and view the material,why make that stupid a statement,if it was just a mogul balloon that just made them look stupid if they didn't even know their own devices,so i believe the first press release was true that they had something they have never seen before

Originally posted by Ectoplasm8
Weather Balloon Cargo Material in the late 40's:
-Small I-Beams
-Foil Material
-3-5 Foot in Size

Crashed Roswell "Flying Saucer" Material in 1947:
-Small I-Beams
-Foil Material
-Pieces found No More Than 3 Feet

Notice anything common between the two? Anyone want to guess at the likelihood or chances that pieces from a spacecraft from another world thousands of years more advanced than us would be constructed exactly as weather balloon cargo from Earth at that time? Just so happens to be in the same small proportions as balloon cargo as well. Hmmmmm...

There was research into a radical fighter plane/bomber designed at that time - the Vought XF5U
Research was even cancelled in ... 1947

en.wikipedia.org...

It was made of a radical new material called metalite - which was two layers of aluminum sandwiching a layer of balsa wood. That meant it could be deformed and return to its normal shape. The airframe shape was so strong, it had to be destroyed by wrecking ball.

Originally posted by jasmine23
You have to ask yourself also why would Walter Haut by orders of base commander William Blanchard put out a press release stating they captured a flying disc,did they view the crash site first and view the material,why make that stupid a statement,if it was just a mogul balloon that just made them look stupid if they didn't even know their own devices,so i believe the first press release was true that they had something they have never seen before

You have to remember, in July of 1947, the term "Flying Saucer" had only been in use for a very short time. Kenneth Arnold had just recently more or less coined the phrase in June 1947, few weeks earlier. So at that time, flying disc or flying saucer was an ambiguous term and didn't carry the same weight or meaning as it does today. In 1947, it could have meant any type of unidentified man-made flying object. In the original newspaper article, there's no mention of having any connection to an outer space vehicle. The Air Force hadn't even begun to study the phenomenon yet. In fact, when Project Blue Book began, the Roswell crash wasn't even mentioned or discussed. Only after Stanton Friedman came out in 1978 with his interview is when this whole story started.

reply to post by Ectoplasm8


Ecto is certainly stirring up the hornets nest.....

I have, somewhere in my VHS "UFO" tv special collections, an interview with Mr Marcel sometime in the late 70s early 80s, where he Adamantly swears, that the material shown to the press WAS weather balloon debris, and that it, WAS NOT the material he had found at the crash site....Hence the very perplexed look on his face in the famous 1947 photo while holding the tin foil.

We also have the Eye witnesses, that everyone forgets about, which were the Scout/Orienteering group, including a teacher (professor?) and his male and female students, who saw and investigated a crashed "Disc" in the hill further on from the debris site. This apparently was also seen at the same time, by a man and his son/nephew or something, and a cousin. All these people found the dead aliens and one live one.........so the story goes....there are apparently deathbed confessions, letters stating the fact etc etc.

Regardless, it has been quite obvious, the USAF and Government have been trying to discredit this information for nearly 70 years................

The real question is why? There wasnt any panic when the newspapers ran with the story, that I believe, appeared Worldwide. People had just endured the WW2 and had better things on their minds.
This would have been an ideal opportunity to say there are Non Earth (we think..maybe they are terrestrial?), other beings...and to avert any panic of Invasion from somewhere else, actually try and communicate with them, and discover their intentions. (Apparently already done by the famous Nurse McElroy stories).

Only a select few know the Real facts.

The media is "liberal" because in the left/right scheme of things, the left is for more government involvement in our lives while the right is for less government Fifa 13 Forums (to be overly simple, that is). Main stream media is not really free press, as you may know, but rather there is a lot of government involvement.

Originally posted by Ectoplasm8
reply to post by Hongkongphooey

 

You're taking a twisted path down a bunch of different stories told with everything based on word of mouth and nothing physical to prove any of it. Your examples of witnesses shows your lack of addressing everything involved with what was said or done by those witnesses and honing in on what fits into your belief. One example you gave is Walter Haut. His story became progressively more detailed as he aged. His initial role was writing and putting out the press release. He later stated in 1979 for a book about Roswell, that he had very little involvement in the case. In an interview in 1989, he said he knew nothing of what was recovered. In the early 90's, he and several other enthusiasts opened the International UFO Museum and Research Center in Roswell. Several years later, all of a sudden he was stating that he was directly involved with the case seeing alien bodies and handling the actual materials found. That's what you consider a credible witness? That's the perfect example of how deeply believers investigate these cases and what's behind the witnesses. There is no investigation at all. Only viewing these beliefs through the eyes of biased reporting or writing, with those stories conveniently leaving out the full details.

I'm getting tired of wasting the energy repeating the same things over and over and hijacking this thread. But, I'll say it one last time. This wasn't a typical "balloon". It was a classified, it was secret, it was something that the military/government didn't want leaked out. It was a completely different time and different mindset. WWII just ended, atomic weapon development was a real concern, the country was paranoid with fear of bombing. Even the UFO phenomenon itself was in it's infancy. The military still hadn't done a study and also had no idea what to think. An unidentified flying object didn't necessarily mean an alien spacecraft then either. It could just as easily meant a Russian spy plane.

The very basis and crutch of this entire story hinges on this material found as described at the time by Mac Brazel and Jesse Marcel. A simple explanation of what it was, destroys this entire case. I'm not disputing if something came crashing down on that ranch or not. Something did. But the similarities to cargo carried by weather balloons in the late 1940's is far too close to that of our own Earthly explanation, to ignore it for this fantastical tale. If you don't see the incredible commonalities between the two, you're bypassing this simple observation for the hyped story of alien spacecraft.

So you choose to believe Walter Haut's first response as the truth however you disbelieve him when he signs a 'legal' affridavit? When people are dying they usually want to clear their conscience before they die, so I would rather believe the affridavit especially when it gels with those of other witnesses. Do you honestly believe that the 'press officer' would not question the press release if he had not seen anything???

As others have stated Jesse Marcel swore that the material shown by the orders og General Roger Ramey at Wright patterson was NOT the debris he found! His son also saw the material, why would he show his family the debris of a balloon?

You question my belief, not my research or knowledge? What do you honestly think that I believe every tall tale and sit at home wearing a silver foil hat, get real I have researched this inside and out, all the debunkers such as yourself only choose the evidence that fits their belief and disregards all the rest.

I do not deny that the material shown in Rameys office at Wright Patterson Air Base was a balloon debris, but it was not the material reported and brought into Roswell Army Air base by Mac Brazel and later recovered by Marcel and the squads who were ordered to clear the field and leave no trace of evidence!

Please answer these questions why would Marcel lie, for what reason? Why would over 300 people with different parts of the story come forward when the story breaks with different pieces and fragments of information that when fitted together became what we now know of the Roswell story? If they were all copying each other, why were their statements so different and not the same? Why was Mac Brazel held and confined by the military for a week before changing his earlier statements? Why would the head of Intelligence and other Top Secret cleared personel at the most Top Secret Base in the USA where the only 'nuclear' weapons were held not able to recognise those simple fragments in Rameys office as Balloon debris? Finally why did the Official Story change four times, which one should we believe??????????????? Please answer those questions before you try to ridicule me!