9/11 - The Untold Stories of the 9/11 Families - In their own words.

Originally posted by whatsecret
reply to post by GoodOlDave

 

You are making it sound like this forum is the criminal court or something like that. I don't look at it this way. This is nothing more than people communicating with each other on the Internet. Nothing on these boards can be used to prove anything in court. I can't call anybody irresponsible here because I don't know why these people post what they do. To them I might seem irresponsible for not talking about lasers from space.

If it bothers you so much maybe you should start your own forum and only allow discussions of what you think should be discussed.

So you really think it's a normal and customary thing to be going around accusing innocent people of committing treason and murder without evidence, with the same irreverence that you'd show when you're swatting a mosquito. I'm sorry, but I don't see that as being anything but dancing in people's blood to slander specific people you don't like simply becuase you think it's funny. ATS may be many things but it's not a Junior High school cafeteria.

Of course they are trying to promote political agenda. That's what they do for a living. Anybody who doesn't understand that is extremely naive. I deal with them by not watching or listening to what they are trying to sell.

After seeing how badly the race baiters and political zealots are raping the Trayvon Martin shooting, I think you can agree there are a hell of a lot of extremely naive people out there.

There are whistleblowers In the movie I posted. You think they aren't any is probably because you don't want to look them up.

As I said before, expecting us to spend an hour watching an entire movie to prove your point is an unrealistic demand. Please provide a transcript or post the times at the points in the movie where we can fast forward to see your "whistleblowers".

I Think this is a very interesting case. He criticized NIST investigation of the twin towers and brought up a lot of good points. But when he was asked about what he thought about the WTC 7 investigation he said he had not looked into it. I wish he would look into it and tell us what he thinks. Or maybe you know where he already did that?

I think it's interesting too, as he brings up a point noone else thought of before- the fires were able to destroy the towers becuase the towers weren't as safe as we were led to believe. He believes the fires legitimately brought down the buildings but just for a different reason than what the NIST report says. Problem is, the conspiracy theorists only quote him so far as saying "he disagrees with the NIST report" but without saying the all important WHY he disagrees with the NIST report. This is as unrepentently dishonest as it gets and to me it's a de facto admission that the conspiracy theorists know they're lying.

...which is why I don't understand why you do not take any umbrage with these characters peddling earthquake machines, lasers from outer space, hologram planes, and all those other crackpot theories. They are making YOU look like a crackpot by association, whether you realize it or not.

reply to post by GoodOlDave

So you really think it's a normal and customary thing to be going around accusing innocent people of committing treason and murder without evidence, with the same irreverence that you'd show when you're swatting a mosquito. I'm sorry, but I don't see that as being anything but dancing in people's blood to slander specific people you don't like simply becuase you think it's funny. ATS may be many things but it's not a Junior High school cafeteria.

It appears like you take it more personal than the innocent people you're saying are being accused of treason and murder. Are you or someone close to you is one of these innocent people Dave? Because if you are then I totally understand your frustration. Do you think these people cannot take care of themselves?

After seeing how badly the race baiters and political zealots are raping the Trayvon Martin shooting, I think you can agree there are a hell of a lot of extremely naive people out there.

Unfortunately I agree with you on this one. Life is hard and it's even harder if you're stupid or "naive like in this case".

I am always willing to try my best to explain things the way I see them to anybody if they ask me, but I'm not in the business to educate random people posting on Internet forums. I shake my head and move on.

As I said before, expecting us to spend an hour watching an entire movie to prove your point is an unrealistic demand. Please provide a transcript or post the times at the points in the movie where we can fast forward to see your "whistleblowers".

I do not expect you to watch it, and this is not a demand. This is simply a opportunity for those who are interested.
I had nothing to do with making of this movie, and I didn't upload it to the Internet. I just found it, watched it, and linked to it for people who might want to see it.

Problem is, the conspiracy theorists only quote him so far as saying "he disagrees with the NIST report" but without saying the all important WHY he disagrees with the NIST report. This is as unrepentently dishonest as it gets and to me it's a de facto admission that the conspiracy theorists know they're lying

Yeah I can see how that could be a problem for some people. If you're one of those that don't verify anything you hear or read on the Internet. I guess I'm a very selfish person because I only care about my problems, and this isn't one of them.

...which is why I don't understand why you do not take any umbrage with these characters peddling earthquake machines, lasers from outer space, hologram planes, and all those other crackpot theories. They are making YOU look like a crackpot by association, whether you realize it or not.

I am not associated with any of those people in any way. And anybody who thinks I am is being extremely naive and ignorant. I put out enough information on ATS to make it clear what I believe and why. It's available for anyone to read at any time, also you can ask me if I believe earthquake machines, lasers from outer space, hologram planes. I will gladly answer that I do not.

If your purpose here is to defend all of the innocent people being wrongly accused of crimes, then you're kickas$ Dave.

reply to post by GoodOlDave


I might actually be considered a LIHOP. I do believe the official story, in terms of the basics: 4 passenger planes with innocent people on board were hijacked, two crashed into the two towers of the WTC, bringing them down and killing thousands more, a third crashed into the Pentagon and killed close to 200 more, a 4th was taken down by either a passenger revolt or an Air Force shoot down (I do not dismiss either possibility). The 19 hijackers were all jihadists working under Al Qaeda guidance and inspiration. I also believe that NORAD and the Air Force were genuinely in the dark about what was going on, and were a surprised and confused as the rest of the country as to what was going on. I also believe the majority of the government, generally low to mid ranking officials, were also in the dark, as well as several higher placed ones. I also am completely neutral as to what brought the twin towers and building 7 down. While I don't think we will ever really know exactly what happened to them (even the NIST report is mostly speculation and theory, because total investigation wasn't really possible) I don't believe that there is any evidence of a controlled demolition, or that some other nefarious force run by the government brought them down. There was a time in the early years, when the pancake theory was being sold, that I was pretty sure that CD was involved. But 12 years on, not a single shred of evidence has come forth for CD, so I no longer consider it plausible.

What I also believe is that certain individuals in high places knew exactly what was up, even details, because the CIA had been hanging around these nutcases and been pretty damned close to them. I think a handful of very powerful people, both in our own government and in foreign governments, knew what was going to happen, and for their own reasons, which we can only speculate on, decided to make sure nothing was done about it. It was a very small number of elites who knew about it, but people who were in the right positions to make sure nothing was done, that investigations were terminated, exercises ordered and scheduled to keep the Air Force busy and confused. They didn't need to do these attacks, there were already religious psychos happy to do the job themselves for their own terrorist agenda. I simply believe that agenda was also very useful to certain individuals who stood to gain much from the attack, whether it be financial, political, or military benefits for their own agendas. I also believe the Saudis were involved a hell of a lot more than what is stated, and due to political and financial interests, are being covered for. I also think the Israelis knew much, but were not involved in the attacks themselves.

So yeah, I guess that makes me a LIHOP, and I definitely know that we are almost non-existent. It's why I also do not consider myself a truther, nor do I consider most LIHOPs truthers, because the truth movement is composed of people who are guillable, clueless, and really would rather believe in death beams, imaginary holographic remote controlled planes, and government spooks planting fake planes than they are in anything resembling reality. And this is why I refuse to have anything to do with them. In fact, ripping up their lame brain theories feels more like a service to humanity than pushing my own LIHOP suspicions and theories, because the truth movement has become disrespectful, abusive, pointless, even downright dangerous sometimes. And their peddling of nonsense is just as dangerous, in my opinion, as the government continuing to cover up and hide information of who really knew what on that day.

Props to the Jersey Girls, though. I am on board with them. These are real people who lost real loved ones that day, who have a right to some answers. Of course, many truthers don't believe anyone died, the victims were faked, and the families are getting paid off to lie. Another reason I have nothing to do with them.

reply to post by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf


You just basically described myself, with two exceptions.

I don't believe that there is any evidence of a controlled demolition

1 - Building 7 collapse looked identical to a controlled demolition, In my opinion NIST's theory is not backed up by anything other than 'here's what happened and you need to take our word for it". Basically they did the same thing as the controlled demolition people. This of course doesn't mean that it was a controlled demolition, it jut looks like it. So it's 50/50 for me at this time.

truth movement is composed of people who are guillable, clueless, and really would rather believe in death beams, imaginary holographic remote controlled planes, and government spooks planting fake planes than they are in anything resembling reality.

2 - I believe that just because there are people that have some of these crazy theories it does not mean that others are automatically discredited. People associated with The Westboro Baptist Church do not represent all Baptists. Or do you think other Baptists should stop considering themselves as Baptists because they don't like Westboro ideologies?

Bob Graham, Bob Kerrey and others have been saying for years that American people don't know the whole truth of 9/11. In my opinion they're truthers too.

What I also believe is that certain individuals in high places knew exactly what was up, even details, because the CIA had been hanging around these nutcases and been pretty damned close to them. I think a handful of very powerful people, both in our own government and in foreign governments, knew what was going to happen, and for their own reasons, which we can only speculate on, decided to make sure nothing was done about it. It was a very small number of elites who knew about it, but people who were in the right positions to make sure nothing was done, that investigations were terminated, exercises ordered and scheduled to keep the Air Force busy and confused.

That my friend would have been impossible. Both Alex Station and the Bin Laden unit of the CIA and the CT-Counter Terrorism Center was composed of 48 agents and investigator along with an unknown number of operators on the ground in Afghanistan, Yemen and Pakistan.

There is no structured hierarchy in either of these clandestine groups that could produce anyone 'elite' that would have all the information and be able to silence everyone else in order to let the plot progress. Just can't happen.

Either the entire FBI and CIA were in on a plan to let it happen or none were. These operations were to world wide and complex for anything like that to happen. As far as other governments knowing individuals were routinely turned over to local interrogators for torture to access information. These people were totally out of the loop and had no information source other that what the CTC wanted to tell them.

All information pertaining the Saudis, and or the Kingdoms knowledge, were destroyed by Presidential decree in 2009.

reply to post by spooky24

There is no structured hierarchy in either of these clandestine groups that could produce anyone 'elite' that would have all the information and be able to silence everyone else in order to let the plot progress.

Remind me again how does compartmentation work?

Remind me again how does compartmentation work?

Do you mean departmentalization or compartmentalization? These agency's all work on a need to know basis that has been around for centuries. Instead of insisting that a group of 'elites' were in a know all, see all and hear all position name them and how they managed to coral hundreds of CIA cables sent from Washington to the Middle East and thousands of FBI memos during the 4 1/2 years it took for this complex operation to come to fruition.

reply to post by spooky24

Do you mean departmentalization or compartmentalization? These

Yeah you got my point... Need to know bases.

Instead of insisting that a group of 'elites' were in a know all, see all and hear all position name them and how they managed to coral hundreds of CIA cables sent from Washington to the Middle East and thousands of FBI memos during the 4 1/2 years it took for this complex operation to come to fruition

I'm confused.. Isn't it exactly what happened?

We might have different opinions regarding why it happened, but as far as I know this is what happened... Correct me if I'm wrong please.

reply to post by whatsecret


Bingo. Compartmentalization. Field agents would only have a piece of the bigger picture. Their pieces would be collected, passed on, and analyzed. Only a handful of people would have had the complete picture. And it is my opinion that those who had the big picture sat on it and chose to do nothing.

That there was foreknowledge of the attacks, I am quite positive. Higher ups were changing or cancelling flights. Condi Rice told her pal Willie not to fly that day. Ashcroft was taking charter flights. Plus, there was the whole put option thing. Elites who knew were telling their wealthy buddies where the real money was at. Odigo messages warning about the attacks. People knew. Powerful people knew. And they did nothing to stop it. Because it benefited their own agendas.

Spooky, they did tell people to shut up. Several agents of the FBI complained they were yanked off the trails of some of the hijackers a few months prior. Several other people came forth saying they had bits of information that were ignored or dismissed by superiors. I don't think that info was discarded, it was sat on. And yes, I know what they did with the info on the Saudis. Even before they destroyed it, they stone walled the 9/11 commission, blacking out any documents related to them. I am quite certain that government had a lot more involvement than we were ever told.

The reasons why? I tend to believe it was because those who did nothing wanted a premise for war. Total war. Not just little airstrikes on aspirin factories. They wanted full balls-to-the-walls boots on the ground. Which, previous to 9/11, would have been extremely difficult to rally support for, both in congress and the American public. Look at the four previous terror attacks: 93 WTC bombing, Khobar, Kenya, and the USS Cole. Little to nothing was done in any of those cases, there was very little support, beyond small airstrikes. People weren't interested in marching to war, because it really hadn't hit home in a big way. Not until 9/11. After that, I clearly remember HIPPIES who would normally be protesting at military bases screaming to nuke the Arabs off the planet. Barely a breath of protest was lodged when we hit Afghanistan.

reply to post by whatsecret


I agree, the WTC collapses were pretty strange, and this is why, at least in the first few years, I was almost certain that evidence would be found that explosives were involved. However, 12 years on, no solid or even convincing evidence of CD has been brought forth, when something should have surfaced. So I can't really subscribe or accept CD as plausible, unlike foreknowledge, which I have found evidence of,

I would need something from someone other than Gage or Jones. Jone's supposed discovery of "nano thermite" is not evidence, as there were a ton of flaws in both the collection of the tested samples. The samples were collected and sent by a random member of the public in New York that collected it from a rooftop a distance from the WTC. Any scientist worth his salt would not find this alone acceptable, there are issues with sample integrity and purity, for starters, as well as no way of knowing if this was actual pure WTC dust, or if other dust had contaminated it. So the results can't really be considered valid. What Jones would have needed was several samples of dust and debris, collected at ground zero amongst the rubble from different areas, handled and stored properly to ensure purity and integrity of the samples, and then tested by not only himself, but other scientists, and the results compared. Testing one single sample proves nothing. Not to mention his conclusion was based on the presence of sulfur, a pretty common element, especially in drywall. And Gage....well....don't get me started on that clown.

I agree with Graham, Kerry, and the others. There is so much we will never know about 9/11, much like MK ULTRA, because the evidence and truth has been destroyed or buried. But we do have some evidence to at least suggest that all was not quite as reported. I do not think this makes us truthers. Trutherism has become almost a cult of crackpot ideas, and like Dave said, those of us who subscribe to the less fantastical, bizarre theories are in a very tiny minority. The comparison to the Westboro Baptist Church isn't mreally a good one, because in the "truth movement", the crazies and extreme theories are the ones who make up the majority, the more rational are a very small minority. LIHOP'ers are more adequately compared to say, Baptists who don't believe homosexuality is sinful or evil. A very small minority.

And this is why I refuse to have anything to do with 9/11 "truth" because it is more obsessed with promoting myths than actual truth, and is based on a combination of ignorance of the facts, cherry picking, and fantastical, X-Files worthy theories than it is with anything resembling truth.

reply to post by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf


I can't say that I disagree with you because you make perfect sense. But I'm not sure about the majority of truthers part. I mean, I haven't met a single person in real life that believed any of that craziness. In my experience, people either believe the commission report and incompetence or a coverup of prior knowledge and deliberate non action.

So from my point of view the space lasers people only exist in the internet, certainly not a majority in my real wold.

reply to post by whatsecret


It's been the opposite for me. I only know 2 people who share my opinions, every one else who I know that thinks the full story has been fiddled or covered up also believe that there was no plane at the Pentagon, that the planes were remote controlled, that there is no such thing as Al Qaeda, that the Jews did it, ect. Anytime I've ever tried discussing 9/11 with anyone, it's always been the more far out theories, the government did it, ect. The only two people who share my views are friends of mine who are also ex military, and now work pretty closely with the intelligence community as contractors.

Naturally, on the internet, it gets worse. Good luck finding any LIHOP sites, they were swallowed and vanished by the MIHOP crowd, the majority of sites now dedicated to "9/11 truth" are dedicated to the MIHIP and more far out theories. I think about the closest thing to a LIHOP site left is wtc7.net. Even though they leave both sides of the argument open for debate, they at least use mostly credible sources for their material.

It helps to remember that the majority of the truth movement got its start and inspiration from Loose Change, which went viral, and promoted the whole :government did it, everything is fake" crap. Before Loose Change, there was actually more balance in opinions, there was no "truth movement", only a lot of people were agreed that there was something more to 9/11 than what we were told. I'd say the LIHOPs and MIHOPs (we didn't have those terms back then around 2002-2004) were about even, and the MIHOPs then didn't subscribe to so many bizarre theories, the only ones they were mostly supportive of were remote control planes, missile at the pentagon, and CD. Things didn't started getting outright koo-koo till after Loose Change.

And yes, I know what they did with the info on the Saudis. Even before they destroyed it, they stone walled the 9/11 commission, blacking out any documents related to them. I am quite certain that government had a lot more involvement than we were ever told.

Not a peep of complaints from anyone including Congress, the media or the world of researchers and investors or Joe on the street to President Obama ordering this information removed from the archives to the FBI vault/incinerator. Absolutely nothing good and everything bad could come from any wide ranging conflict with the Kingdom. We need each other too much to risk a fissure between the countries and that trumps and need or right to know everything the government does.

Everyone from Moveon on the left to the tea party on the right knows that some secrets are made to be kept secret when nothing can be gained and everything can be lost.

Everyone under estimated the reaction of having US Marines stationed in the Kingdom which was OBL main rally cry and it outraged Muslims around the world. Had that not happened a lot of people in NY and Washington and on those planes would still be alive.

Hindsight is indeed 20/20

Originally posted by spooky24

And yes, I know what they did with the info on the Saudis. Even before they destroyed it, they stone walled the 9/11 commission, blacking out any documents related to them. I am quite certain that government had a lot more involvement than we were ever told.

Not a peep of complaints from anyone including Congress, the media or the world of researchers and investors or Joe on the street to President Obama ordering this information removed from the archives to the FBI vault/incinerator.

I think this might have something to do with it.

reply to post by whatsecret


Bingo. The Saudis are pretty much immune to political backlash. Those in power know which side the bread is buttered on.

And I would not say there was no peep of protest. It was played down. But there certainly was some outrage over it.