The race of the Biblical Israelites

reply to post by Rex282


Genetic markers, even if lacking, which I doubt, have not prevented scholars from tracing various tribes of Israel through the landscape of history. My research has uncovered these identities so far:

Reuben - the French

Zebulun - the Dutch, probably including the Flemish

Dan - the Danes (Danmark) and the Irish (most Irish, not all, but including some Scots)

Benjamin - the coastal Norse, Icelanders, and Manx

Other tribes seem less forthcoming.

A pair of bibical prophesies to consider on this subject.

Genesis 48
Genesis 49

According to the prophesies the Israelites were to scatter to the world and become a multitude of nations. And they have had several thousand years to do it. From the days of Moses onward to today they have been polluting the gene pool of the world. Chances are by now that most of the world has a drop of Israelite blood running in their veins.

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
reply to post by Rex282

 

Genetic markers, even if lacking, which I doubt, have not prevented scholars from tracing various tribes of Israel through the landscape of history. My research has uncovered these identities so far:

Reuben - the French

Zebulun - the Dutch, probably including the Flemish

Dan - the Danes (Danmark) and the Irish (most Irish, not all, but including some Scots)

Benjamin - the coastal Norse, Icelanders, and Manx

Other tribes seem less forthcoming.

As you know race and bloodlines has NOTHING to do with who Israel is.It is a red herring that can only lead to nothing but racism and false superiority on all sides.Genetic Israel and Judah are no more.They were not a "race" to begin with.They did not hold and do not hold any "choseness" to God.The whole Khumri, to British Israelite to Ephraim and Manasseh is GB and USA theory are falsity and mean nothing.It's just more of the SOS foolish religion.

reply to post by Lazarus Short

Genetic markers, even if lacking, which I doubt, have not prevented scholars from tracing various tribes of Israel through the landscape of history. My research has uncovered these identities so far:

Reuben - the French

Zebulun - the Dutch, probably including the Flemish

Dan - the Danes (Danmark) and the Irish (most Irish, not all, but including some Scots)

Benjamin - the coastal Norse, Icelanders, and Manx

These are exactly the kind of claims I was addressing in the OP.

IF the Europeans were the original Israelites, we should find in European culture some signs of an Israelite past.... be it names, symbols, customs, oral traditions and practices similar to the Biblical Israelites. The idea of Europeans being the original Israelites is a concoction of race-centric theologians, attempting to claim a connection between his race and the Biblical Israelites. In reality, there is nothing in European culture / legends that even resembles that of the Hebrew Israelites and so there is no relation between the two groups of people.

Also, the Europeans are of Japethic stock. The Israelites were of Shem. So apart from being human, there is no connection between the two.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

The race of the Biblical Israelites

Well .. technically there are only three races of humans ... caucasian, asian, negroid.
So I guess the Israelites would fit in the caucasian.

In traditional anthropological studies there are actually 5 races.

1) Mongoloid (Asian and American Indian)
2) Caucasoid (European)
3) Australoid (Australian and oceanic)
4) Negroid (east African black)
5) Capoid (south African black)

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by Lazarus Short

 

Genetic markers, even if lacking, which I doubt, have not prevented scholars from tracing various tribes of Israel through the landscape of history. My research has uncovered these identities so far:

Reuben - the French

Zebulun - the Dutch, probably including the Flemish

Dan - the Danes (Danmark) and the Irish (most Irish, not all, but including some Scots)

Benjamin - the coastal Norse, Icelanders, and Manx

These are exactly the kind of claims I was addressing in the OP.

IF the Europeans were the original Israelites, we should find in European culture some signs of an Israelite past.... be it names, symbols, customs, oral traditions and practices similar to the Biblical Israelites. The idea of Europeans being the original Israelites is a concoction of race-centric theologians, attempting to claim a connection between his race and the Biblical Israelites. In reality, there is nothing in European culture / legends that even resembles that of the Hebrew Israelites and so there is no relation between the two groups of people.

Also, the Europeans are of Japethic stock. The Israelites were of Shem. So apart from being human, there is no connection between the two.

edit on 3-8-2013 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

I see there is a lot of evidence you are unaware of. As to the charge that Europeans/Caucasians are descended from Japheth, I have seen it endless asserted, but without a shred of evidence. This assertion is usually made by Japhethites who pass themselves off as Shemites, while denying the true Shemites their due legacy. As ever, there is an agenda at work.

reply to post by Lazarus Short

I see there is a lot of evidence you are unaware of.

I have seen plenty of material from white / black groups claiming to be the Biblical Israelites. In the end, its just a statement.... an assertion and that is exactly what this thread is addressing.

What is passed off as "evidence" that the Europeans are Israelites are on the same lines as "evidence" from blacks claiming to be Israelites. Both European and Black cultures show no signs of an Israelite past - whether its names, customs, oral traditions or practices that resemble that of Biblical Israelites. In reality, European and African cultures are worlds apart from Israelite culture.

I'm not saying that there aren't any Europeans or Blacks with Israelite blood, because naturally some mixing would have occurred between the groups through the ages. Its the claim that the Israelites themselves were white / black that is absurd.

Originally posted by Rex282

As you know race and bloodlines has NOTHING to do with who Israel is.It is a red herring that can only lead to nothing but racism and false superiority on all sides.Genetic Israel and Judah are no more.They were not a "race" to begin with.They did not hold and do not hold any "choseness" to God.The whole Khumri, to British Israelite to Ephraim and Manasseh is GB and USA theory are falsity and mean nothing.It's just more of the SOS foolish religion.

"As you know..."? I know nothing of the sort. I do recall that Jesus the Christ told His disciples that they would judge/rule the 12 tribes of Israel. I also note that the New Jerusalem will have gates, one for each tribe of Israel (Revelation 21:12). You also miss the biggest theme of the entire Bible (I may exaggerate just a bit), and that is God's love for His wives, Israel and Judah. He divorced them both for cause, but made it clear in the Word that He still loved them, and would re-marry them in the future. The death of Jesus the Christ made this possible (you know, 'till death do us part...). The Revelation show us them coming together again, but the identity of the Bride of Christ is hidden from those who have not connected the dots.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


We will just have to agree to disagree. I know of lots of evidences, but I will mention only this one: When Israel escaped from Assyrian captivity, they went mostly north by certain routes through the Caucasian mountains. Most people think they disappeared at that point, but "barbarian" tribes appeared about the same time just past the same Caucasian mountains, but with other names. Some of us make the connection...

Later, these "barbarian" tribes arrived in Europe with names like "Jutes" (Jews), Saxons (I-saac's Sons), and the like. Many of them were refugees from the Israel-ruled Parthian Empire, which was taken over by the Persians in 226 AD.

Of course, I don't expect you to believe a word of what I say.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
-Revelation 1:15

Now he was ruddy, and withal of a beautiful countenance
-I Samuel 16:12

That's pretty shaky ground to say they all looked like him.

Revelation 1:14-16

14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.

You're taking God's description and applying it to a people literally, so then he must have firey eyes and a voice that sounds like the waves of the oceans crashing and a sword protruding from his mouth, and shining bright enough to blind people.

I have yet to see any ethnicity like that i'm afraid and I am pretty sure no one else has seen an ethnicity like that either, because I guarantee you it wouldn't be a forgettable sight.

So it's ridiculous to attribute the part about his feet being like brass on it's own unless you take the rest of the description with it. What you're doing it cherry picking what you want and discarding the rest and saying "ooooh look, the Israelites had brass colored feet...and i'll just ignore the rest of the description of the Lord because it doesn't fit my theory".

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

That's pretty shaky ground to say they all looked like him.

You're taking God's description and applying it to a people literally, so then he must have firey eyes and a voice that sounds like the waves of the oceans crashing and a sword protruding from his mouth, and shining bright enough to blind people.

Ummmm... my point was that those shaky verses are the kinds used by race centric groups to make the claim that the Israelites were white/black. Its those race-centric group who are reading things into verses speaking about something else.

Originally posted by Lazarus Short

Originally posted by Rex282

As you know race and bloodlines has NOTHING to do with who Israel is.It is a red herring that can only lead to nothing but racism and false superiority on all sides.Genetic Israel and Judah are no more.They were not a "race" to begin with.They did not hold and do not hold any "choseness" to God.The whole Khumri, to British Israelite to Ephraim and Manasseh is GB and USA theory are falsity and mean nothing.It's just more of the SOS foolish religion.

"As you know..."? I know nothing of the sort. I do recall that Jesus the Christ told His disciples that they would judge/rule the 12 tribes of Israel. I also note that the New Jerusalem will have gates, one for each tribe of Israel (Revelation 21:12). You also miss the biggest theme of the entire Bible (I may exaggerate just a bit), and that is God's love for His wives, Israel and Judah. He divorced them both for cause, but made it clear in the Word that He still loved them, and would re-marry them in the future. The death of Jesus the Christ made this possible (you know, 'till death do us part...). The Revelation show us them coming together again, but the identity of the Bride of Christ is hidden from those who have not connected the dots.

I am disappointed you are taking those phrocheys literaly. The two sticks is not the genetic nations of Israel and Judah reuniting.It is the nations ....the people of the world ... Gods creation..Israel is not a literal chosen "genetic" people it is a type and shadow...a metaphor for all peoples....The Israel of God.When Paul said Jerusalem from above is the mother us all was he speaking literally.Israel was a type and a shadow ..an example of a people and how God would deal with them through the ages to come.When the scriptures says All of Israel(as the united two sticks) will be save it means all people.Everyone is Gods people.

The patriarchs which are represented by the apostles are the 1st fruits.They are not "rulers" in the normal sense.The Kingdom of God is not like an earthly Kingdom at all.It is man being the king(under the King of kings) of the Kingdom of God that is in their midst.

The doctrines of a supremacy of a literal genetic Israel nation are like the others doctrines of men....false.They all must eventually die just as hell and free will doctrines have died to you.This is the process of salvation.I know the basic process you are going through.The remnants of the old doctrines are still there.I have seen people that have had the basics doctrines eradicated yet hang onto the old even more!I guarantee it doesn't work out.That is the meaning of COME out of them(babylon..religion) my people and do not partake of their sins.

I can't convince you however I can tell you of things to come because everyone will experience them all in their own order.ALL doctrines of man(religion) must die.Man can not reveal God only God can.When John said spirit is our only teacher he meant just that.The apostles experienced all of this 1st hand.They weren't teaching in their epistles they were proclaiming Truth just as Yahoshua did.

The bottom line for this subject is Israel(and Judah) are not a race. Technically they were born of Abraham who was from the linage of Shem and lived in Chaldea.Again genetics has nothing to do with being a chosen people at all.God is calling and will chose ALL men ...he is not a respecter of men.There are no favorites or elites ...only all in their own order..

reply to post by Rex282


You'll be surprised to hear that I agree totally with you - ultimately. For this age, and the one to come, all prophecies about Israel are not yet fulfilled, and God is not yet done with His Plan for Israel. The real return of Israel to the Land of Promise has not happened yet, the 144,000 from the twelve tribes have not appeared yet, and the New Jerusalem with 12 gates inscribed with the names of the 12 tribes has not yet come down.

Only at the consummation of the ages will what you say be true, and I look to it as you do. Right now, God's Plan for Israel is present truth.

reply to post by Lazarus Short


As I've said..it is good God has caused you to hear the Truth concerning hell and free will.I wasn't implying that you didn't only a acknowledgment that revelation is a process(as is everything).The knowledge of the falsity of the doctrine of eternal punishment of hell and free will are the beginning of the false doctrines of man being eradicated and overcoming them.

As Yahoshua said flesh and blood cannot reveal this only the Father can.Gary A can preach about those doctrines being false however the revelation all comes from the father...and that is another large key.It is the revealing(unveiling) of Yahoshua Mashiach...God is salvation in the anointing.That is what Revelation is all about.

The book of Revelation unlocks not by deciphering the symbols and signs but it unveils Gods salvation.As it says "The testimony of Yahoshua is the spirit of prophecy."Which is true in all the scriptures.There are many that cannot know this yet.They are still in the process of the initial overcoming. They read into the scriptures what is not there and create the doctrines of men.The many say that Jesus has saved them then add on their own works and say they do them in Jesus name.Matt7 addresses very clearly the outcome.

There are many doctrines of man to overcome.I am not suggesting in the least we can do it ourselves.It is God that does all the work.We are the clay being remolded..changed ..repented.Only God can reveal the Truth however that truth can be stated when it is known.I know the doctrine of men interpretation of the book of Revelation having literal historical events is false.

The Israel of God are Gods people....ALL mankind. Genetic Israel through Abraham are types and shadow.He even told Abraham his off spring would be uncountable.If that meant only Abraham's genetic offspring it would literally be impossible because there were many that aren't the offspring of genetic Abraham at all.If it were like some of the many believe ...that THEY are the bloodline descendants of Israel then all could not be saved.The true answer is in Abraham's name(a common thread in the scriptures) but it is not literal.Abraham=Father of many nations...ALL nations ....but not genetically.

Genetic Israel doesn't exist and never will be again.God divorced them forever almost 3 thousand years ago.God is being "married" to ALL nations that is at the core of what you call universalism(btw I am not a universalist).There is no genetic hierarchy in the Kingdoms of God.The flesh profits nothing."Let us leave the elementary doctrines of the anointing of laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, and of instruction about washings,and the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment".

Paul knew how easy it was to get hung up on the basics.There is a common thread that runs through the process of salvation in this age. Dieing to the doctrines of men and of course it is God doing the killing.Those doctrines die very long lingering deaths because they are held onto.They become warm blankets but they are dirty rags.The Kingdom of God is nothing like an earthly kingdom.It is IN your midst.The most common thread I found with most of the "sonship" people is they think they are going to be kings and priest upon earth ruling and reigning with Jesus because it says so in Revelation...however it is metaphorical.

There is no literal 1,000 year reign in a literal new Jerusalem that is 1,500 square miles cubed...that's impossible!!There are not literal 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel that are the 1st fruits.144 thousand is a quality(Phi) not a quantity.I too could not reconcile some of the things until they were revealed as more doctrines of men.The beauty is once the big obvious ones(hell and free will) begin to fall the others fall into place also.The fantasy fades and reality seeps in.The fact is it is all very normal.The show of religion is gone for good.It has zero power.Then the myths dissolve into fairy tales.The monster under the bed is only the adversary of fear.It's all part of the paths.No one can help someone on their path.They have to walk it out.Fortunately it will all be walked out.When the field is in sight the path begins to disappear. All the best to EVERYONE on their journey.

reply to post by Rex282


Say on brother - I am beginning to understand what you are saying!

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
reply to post by Rex282

 

Say on brother - I am beginning to understand what you are saying!

Thanks LS.All is hearing and all hearing comes from God..THANK GOD!!!