You're a criminal, whether you know it or not.

reply to post by Akareyon


A republic is sovereign, not a democracy...Democracy is the antithesis of sovereignty...

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by boncho

 

Haven't you heard?

Slavery is the new freedom.

War is the new peace.

Lies are the new truth.

Sensationalism is the new journalism.

Man am I glad to be an American! Obama kept his word about change, that's for sure. Thing is, he never said what kind of change it would be.

edit on 29-7-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

Actually, he did: "Change you can believe it!"

This is a sad reference, I know. But when is the last time you said or heard someone say "Well, This is a free country isn't it?"....? Or something like "This is a free country, I can do what I want.".....?

Originally posted by VeritasAequitas
reply to post by Akareyon

 

A republic is sovereign, not a democracy...Democracy is the antithesis of sovereignty...

Sorry, my english is not so good. I was thinking of this definition:

Sovereignty is the quality of having independent authority over a geographic area, such as a territory. It can be found in a power to rule and make laws that rests on a political fact for which no pure legal definition can be provided. In theoretical terms, the idea of "sovereignty", historically, from Socrates to Thomas Hobbes, has always necessitated a moral imperative on the entity exercising it.

and this:

Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible citizens participate equally [...] in the proposal, development, and creation of laws.

...whereas:

A republic is a form of government in which affairs of state are a "public matter" (Latin: res publica), not the private concern of the rulers.

In this sense, in a democratic republic the people are sovereign, and a democracy is not without being republic. I misunderstood?

Hmm, nope, I'm not a criminal pretty sure I know I'm not.
or am I?... maybe thats the point. You just dont know anymore.

Im glad the H.J.C and cato took time to look into that.
Tyvm

“The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater.”

Frank Zappa,

Never more true than now.

Originally posted by VeritasAequitas
reply to post by Akareyon

 

A republic is sovereign, not a democracy...Democracy is the antithesis of sovereignty...

Why do you think the push to always call the US a democracy? Change the word change the meaning.

Yea a Republic is ruled by laws, not by the mob.

A democracy, the mob makes the rules.

We used to be a nation governed by checks and balances, who followed the rule of law dogmatically, Now we are a democracy where the whim of the masses rules.

Why do you think Zimmerman was tried, because the masses called for it, not because the letter of the law was followed, just a Micro of a Macro situation in the US.

As funny as some of those laws are, I don't think the video in the OP was talking about the dumb laws in our country. Also this from the link:

There are relatively few real "dumb laws" on the books, but a large number of hoax or exaggerated dumb laws are circulated on the internet and in the print media.

No I believe that the laws talked about in the video are the serious and very criminal type. Though we can all sit and laugh at the made up dumb laws in this thread or talk about the real issue that the American Government can jail just about any person in this country for something they didn't even know they were doing wrong.

In the UK your a criminal if your to poor and can't afford to pay for a TV licence or monthly council tax (and council tax is not cheap if your on minimum wage) , they send bailiffs to your home and seize any goods of value, if you have no goods of significent value you can do time in prison for a maximum of 3 months.

Our royal family are turning this country into another North Korea only they sit in the background while the MP's and prime minister take the flak.

reply to post by gladtobehere


Couple that with Snowden's revlations, the NDAA, Patriot Act, and on and on, and you've got the recipe for a complete totalitarian, Orwellian state... LAWfully.

Disgusting.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by boncho

 

Haven't you heard?

Slavery is the new freedom.

War is the new peace.

Lies are the new truth.

Sensationalism is the new journalism.

Man am I glad to be an American! Obama kept his word about change, that's for sure. Thing is, he never said what kind of change it would be.

This has been going on for a looooong time now, way before Obama's administration.

Crime is actually the biggest employment sector in the world.

If you take in to account everyone either directly or indirectly linked to 'fighting crime'. You will see that its a vast sector worth billions. That's without taking in to account those indirectly linked to 'fighting crime' or even to crime itself. The weapons manufacturers for a start and all the people that benefit from these drug dealers and cartels with vast amounts of wealth spending it buying vast amounts of stuff, from flash cars, to flash houses.

If crime vanished overnight the unemployment and poverty rate would shoot through the roof, the government, law firms, weapons manufacturers, police, prison staff, rehab staff, numerous agency operatives and all of the small indirectly involved companies and staff would find themselves out of work and I would be one of them. They need crime, so it makes sense to keep expanding the biggest employment sector, in my eyes.

Don't forget, at least here in the UK, we don't even want to send you to jail, unless you murder someone and we have to. We want to fine you, increase revenue. As the country falls to pieces, so too the fines will increase. £60 fixed penalty, no, its £100, whether it says £60 or not.

Crime pays.

reply to post by benrl

Why do you think the push to always call the US a democracy? Change the word change the meaning.

Yea a Republic is ruled by laws, not by the mob.

A democracy, the mob makes the rules.

Change the meaning of words, change reality.

Mob rule is Ochlocracy:

Ochlocracy (Greek: ὀχλοκρατία, okhlokratía; Latin: ochlocratia) or mob rule is government by mob or a mass of people, or the intimidation of legitimate authorities. As a pejorative for majoritarianism, it is akin to the Latin phrase mobile vulgus meaning "the fickle crowd", from which the English term "mob" was originally derived in the 1680s.

Ochlocracy ("rule of the general populace") is democracy ("rule of the people") spoiled by demagoguery, "tyranny of the majority", and the rule of passion over reason, just like oligarchy ("rule of a few") is aristocracy ("rule of the best") spoiled by corruption, and tyranny is monarchy spoiled by lack of virtue.

Whereas democracy (δημοκρατία) is defined as

"rule of the people", which was coined from δῆμος (dêmos) "people" and κράτος (kratos) "power" or "rule".

I find it sad how oligarchies, plutocracies, aristocracies and ochlocracies called themselves "democratic" and thus have given the word "democracy" the bitter taste of arbitrariness, mob rule and tyranny. This ochlocracy connotation was once reserved for anarchy, when defined as "lawlessness" -- although ἀναρχία simply means (from ἀν an, "not, without" + ἀρχός arkhos, "ruler") "absence of a leader", "without rulers".

By these very definitions, democracy is res publica - rule of the sovereign of the consent by the entire people on public matters. However, as soon as the people are misinformed, their decisions and judgements are based on poor knowledge, such a democracy becomes ochlocratic and prey to demagogues.

And just as monarchy can be perverted to despotism, and aristocracy to oligarchy, and democracy to ochlocracy, the "rule of law", nomocracy or "Rechtsstaat" of the republic is no less prone to corruption, as Tacitus pointed out in his Annals (117 AD):

Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges. - The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government.

It is one of my favourite quotes.

Interestingly, the term Bureaucracy was a satirical pejorative from the outset; and even Max Weber, who defended it as the most efficient and rational way in which human activity can be organized, just like Kafka ("The Trial") saw it as a threat to individual freedom, in which the increasing bureaucratization of human life traps individuals in an "iron cage" of rule-based, rational control.

And this is exactly what happened. The "Golden Rule" in its simplest form consists of six words: "Love your neighbor as yourself", in its less less simple form of twelve words: "What you do not wish for yourself, do not do to others"; even Kants more complicated categorical imperative needs only 21 words: Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law.

Would this not suffice as supreme law, could not every dispute judged accordingly?

No, because the effort to treat everyone equal and a world with ever increasing complexity resulted in a law industry so vast that the president of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers felt compelled to testify

that when the average citizen cannot figure out what is illegal, "that is unfairness in its most basic form."

"We have become addicted to the use of criminal law as a blunt instrument to control social and economic behavior"

(Link from OP). Note, these guys make money by knowing the law better than the average citizen. Them complaining about too many laws is like oil firms complaining about too many cars. It's that bad.

The rule of law has become the tyranny of law: instead of protecting the people and their rights and freedoms, it has become a tool of oppression. The sheer number of laws you can break without intention (Justice Jackson made "intention" the sine qua non for liability) or knowledge forbids any use of the word "republic" - "public matter" - in this context.

I as an American came to realise quite a long time ago that our "Freedom" is our prison. As long as there are Governments none of us all really "free" All countries have their ways of keeping the people at bay, whether it's totalitarian rule, or freedom, both work equally as well.

In N.C. you can beat your wife on the courthouse steps the first Sunday of the month, with due process of alerting all to the beating 3 days prior. How they get around that law? Court is not open on Sundays, to simple to just take it off the books. There's folks in prison for life sentences for having about as much weed on them as you have lint in your pocket as you read this. Yea.. America, a nation of laws.......Most of which are un-just. And the others arent enforced... just look at the illegal immigrant problem we have.

reply to post by openyourmind1262


Do you have a reference for that supposed law from actual state code or are you relying on one of the many sites on the internet that post "dumb laws" without any citation?

Many of these "dumb laws" are not actually real or are deliberate misinterpretations and exaggerations of existing laws.

reply to post by erwalker


Your one of those who cant see the forest because of all the tree's. Whether it's real law or no isnt the root of my post. Having laws we do not enforce and that are onesided was the root of my meaning. And I got that law from a local TV show about the state of N.C. If it's true or no, isnt the point. A nation of laws, some of which we do not enforce..some of which we enforce to much. We just dont need any more laws dealing with the same problems if we allready have laws that do not get enforced. We are caught in a infinite loop of laws & new laws.

reply to post by openyourmind1262


We certainly have enough laws! But....but... what would those 435 "lawmakers" do with all their free time, if they didn't continue justifying their sorry existence, by passing still more laws-- occasionally?

It's so ridiculous, sometimes I have to stop and think 'Is what I'm doing illegal, or not??' And then hope my rational conclusion is "correct."

Originally posted by doobydoll

Originally posted by alonzo730
In Plattsburgh, NY all barbershops must leave their curtains open on Sundays to make sure there's no dancing.

GASP! How DARE anyone want to dance on Sundays!

Seriously though, lunatic laws are what you get when lunatics are in power.

Here in the UK, police just lie in wait for passing motorists to commit a driving violation and allow serious crime to go unchecked. Speeding offences generate £60 a pop on the spot.

Last week in my town, a friend of mine witnessed two men suspiciously hovering around an ATM and then saw one hide something under his jumper and both walked away to a white van. My friend ran in the shop, told them the ATM outside has just been interfered with, and to call the police. He then jumped in his car and followed the van all over town.

When it had to stop at traffic lights one of the men got out and ran off, so my friend jumped out ran to the van, opened the driver door and took the keys from the ignition, he held the driver there whilst calling the police. The police told him to release the man because they couldn't respond due to a lack of manpower. So my friend confiscated all the driver's documents which were on the dashboard, and also confiscated his card-cloning equipment which was stuffed under his jumper. Then he had to let the criminal go. Meanwhile, there were ten pairs of policemen hiding on the different main roads in and out of town, lying in wait for passing speeding motorists and slapping them with £60 on the spot fines.

Can't go arresting real criminals for no gain when there are motorists to legally extort money from.

The police force should be renamed Revenue Generators.

Your friend, in risking his life to stop thieves, undoubtedly broke several laws that would make him a felon if he should be prosecuted.

reply to post by openyourmind1262


Yet posting made up laws or distortions of laws that, upon examination, bear no resemblance to the actual laws does nothing but distract from those laws that truly are foolish, shortsighted, or oppressive.

Originally posted by MuzzleBreak

Originally posted by doobydoll

Originally posted by alonzo730
In Plattsburgh, NY all barbershops must leave their curtains open on Sundays to make sure there's no dancing.

GASP! How DARE anyone want to dance on Sundays!

Seriously though, lunatic laws are what you get when lunatics are in power.

Here in the UK, police just lie in wait for passing motorists to commit a driving violation and allow serious crime to go unchecked. Speeding offences generate £60 a pop on the spot.

Last week in my town, a friend of mine witnessed two men suspiciously hovering around an ATM and then saw one hide something under his jumper and both walked away to a white van. My friend ran in the shop, told them the ATM outside has just been interfered with, and to call the police. He then jumped in his car and followed the van all over town.

When it had to stop at traffic lights one of the men got out and ran off, so my friend jumped out ran to the van, opened the driver door and took the keys from the ignition, he held the driver there whilst calling the police. The police told him to release the man because they couldn't respond due to a lack of manpower. So my friend confiscated all the driver's documents which were on the dashboard, and also confiscated his card-cloning equipment which was stuffed under his jumper. Then he had to let the criminal go. Meanwhile, there were ten pairs of policemen hiding on the different main roads in and out of town, lying in wait for passing speeding motorists and slapping them with £60 on the spot fines.

Can't go arresting real criminals for no gain when there are motorists to legally extort money from.

The police force should be renamed Revenue Generators.

Your friend, in risking his life to stop thieves, undoubtedly broke several laws that would make him a felon if he should be prosecuted.

Indeed he would have.

But the police in my town are only interested in traffic offenders because it raises vast amounts of revenue in fines. It appears so anyway.

Catching real criminals costs money, catching motorists raises money.