God Hardened Pharaoh's Heart

Originally posted by Deetermined
I think you misunderstood. There was no theft. These items were given to the Israelites by the Egyptians.

Yes, I know that's what the bible says. And Moses claimed that God would have the Egyptians give them all their wealth. But let's think about this .... If Pharaoh one minute tells the Israelites to get out of Egypt but then the next sends his police force after them to track them down .. what happened in that time that made Pharaoh change his mind? There is no evidence that the Jews were ever slaves so it wasn't like he was trying to get slaves back. He must have been going after the wealth that the Jews stole (or shook down) from the Egyptians. That's what happened between the time that Pharaoh said 'go' and Pharaoh sending his troops after the Jews.

Originally posted by Deetermined
When God hardened the Pharaoh's heart, it was to prove his powers over all of the other gods of Egypt in the sight of the Israelites and the Egyptians, as a sign to all of the people.

That's an interesting theory. But it still looks like God is working against Himself to me.

Considering that there is no evidence to support the old testament story about the Jews being slaves, it really doesn't matter because it probably never happened anyways.

But for the sake of argument ... it's kind of interesting.

Originally posted by logical7
absence of evidence does not equate with evidence of absence.

It's more than absence of evidence. As I said ... read these links ...
Language ... impossibility for millions of people to be lost in the desert for 40 years and leave nothing behind ... etc etc
Reform Judaism - The Stories of Israelites Being Slaves in Egypt are Fiction
Wheat and Tares - Israelites were NOT Slaves to the Egyptians.
Haaretz - Were Jews Ever Really Slaves in Egypt or is it a Passover Myth?

Anyways i still don't get the purpose of the OP. what are you suggesting?/whats your stand?.

Really? What part of this is hard to understand?

My opening post -

So ... WHAT IS THE POINT? God is fighting with Himself?? One part of God is sending signs and wonders and saying 'let the Israelites go' ... and another part of God is hardening Pharaoh's heart so it won't listen to what the other part of God is saying?? All the Egyptians will suffer horribly because God sends warnings but also 'hardens Pharaoh's heart' ... so the Egyptians have no mercy and no hope of escaping the evils that are about to fall on them .. no chance to change or accept the warnings because God hardens hearts?? Really??

My thought ... Exodus was written from the viewpoint of those who wanted to glorify the Israelites. They were probably unionized workers of a lower foreign class in Egypt and they revolted ... and their leader Moses gave them the freedom to loot and shake down the Egyptians of their wealth before they all quit and left to go to the 'promised land'. That's why Pharaoh sent his chariots (police) after the Israelites when they left Egypt. Not because those people were run away slaves. But because those people were thieves. Why else would Pharaoh let them go and then suddenly change his mind ... it's because Pharaoh found out that the Israelites left with a pile of loot. And no, I have no proof of that ... it's just the thought that I have that makes sense.

edit on 7/26/2013 by FlyersFan because: fixed link

reply to post by logical7


No I don't buy any of it. As the links that I provided show .. there is no evidence to support it. If millions of people spent 40 years wandering in the desert, then there would be forensic evidence of it. That many people leaving behind jugs or bones of animals or bodies or whatever. The desert preserves those things. But there is nothing. So I don't believe that the Jews were ever slaves in Egypt.

As for the alleged 'miracles of moses'. Those are a matter of faith and forensics. There is no forensic proof that Moses was freeing slaves. If people want to 'have faith' and buy into the ancient stories even if there is no proof .. that's up to them.

But it comes back to this ... if people buy into the ancient stories .. and if they think the Old Testament is telling accurate stories ... then it sure looks like God is fighting with himself .... God telling Moses to go tell Pharaoh to let the slaves go but at the same time God hardening Pharaohs heart so it can't happen. It's very odd ....

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Yes, I know that's what the bible says. And Moses claimed that God would have the Egyptians give them all their wealth. But let's think about this .... If Pharaoh one minute tells the Israelites to get out of Egypt but then the next sends his police force after them to track them down .. what happened in that time that made Pharaoh change his mind? There is no evidence that the Jews were ever slaves so it wasn't like he was trying to get slaves back. He must have been going after the wealth that the Jews stole (or shook down) from the Egyptians. That's what happened between the time that Pharaoh said 'go' and Pharaoh sending his troops after the Jews.

According to the Bible, God had Pharaoh's army chase the Israelites in order to prove to the Egyptians that God had the power to destroy his army, so they too would know that he was the LORD.

Exodus 14:18

18 And the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I have gotten me honour upon Pharaoh, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.

reply to post by FlyersFan

If millions of people spent 40 years wandering in the desert, then there would be forensic evidence of it. That many people leaving behind jugs or bones of animals or bodies or whatever. The desert preserves those things.

If they were wandering around, everything they had would be portable and not permanent.

As for the desert preserving anything, most likely the desert winds would bury everything so deep in sand you'd never find it.

reply to post by FlyersFan

No I don't buy any of it. As the links that I provided show .. there is no evidence to support it. If millions of people spent 40 years wandering in the desert, then there would be forensic evidence of it. That many people leaving behind jugs or bones of animals or bodies or whatever. The desert preserves those things. But there is nothing. So I don't believe that the Jews were ever slaves in Egypt.

if you doubt everything then why not the numbers? What if it was not that high?

And if the jews were not slaves, why they left and where they went and why? Did they got better job offers from somewhere?

Originally posted by FlyersFan
reply to post by logical7

 

No I don't buy any of it. As the links that I provided show .. there is no evidence to support it. If millions of people spent 40 years wandering in the desert, then there would be forensic evidence of it. That many people leaving behind jugs or bones of animals or bodies or whatever. The desert preserves those things. But there is nothing. So I don't believe that the Jews were ever slaves in Egypt.

edit on 7/26/2013 by FlyersFan because: (no reason given)

Precisely why I dont believe in evolution.
A complete lack of transitional fossil evidence

reply to post by FlyersFan

God telling Moses to go tell Pharaoh to let the slaves go but at the same time God hardening Pharaohs heart so it can't happen

it can actually happen. A person who persistently disobeys and rejects God, reaches a stage of his/her heart that he/she can no longer benefit from guidance and then even gond advice has a negative effect on the heart and thats called as God hardening the heart.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Lets take a look at Exodus ....

My guess would be that the story was made up to explain where the custom of Passover came from.
Originally it may have been connected with a murder cult to gain land for their tribe to expand into, where the mark on the door showed where their own members lived.
Those perpetrators get turned into an "angel of death" and so it all gets sanitized.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
reply to post by logical7

 

No I don't buy any of it. As the links that I provided show .. there is no evidence to support it. If millions of people spent 40 years wandering in the desert, then there would be forensic evidence of it. That many people leaving behind jugs or bones of animals or bodies or whatever. The desert preserves those things. But there is nothing. So I don't believe that the Jews were ever slaves in Egypt.

As for the alleged 'miracles of moses'. Those are a matter of faith and forensics. There is no forensic proof that Moses was freeing slaves. If people want to 'have faith' and buy into the ancient stories even if there is no proof .. that's up to them.

But it comes back to this ... if people buy into the ancient stories .. and if they think the Old Testament is telling accurate stories ... then it sure looks like God is fighting with himself .... God telling Moses to go tell Pharaoh to let the slaves go but at the same time God hardening Pharaohs heart so it can't happen. It's very odd ....

edit on 7/26/2013 by FlyersFan because: (no reason given)

It is odd, when looking at it from that angle. But shift your point of view just a little bit, and it makes sense. God did not Tell Moses to approach the pharaoh, and then go to that same pharaoh and actually change his mind.

Think about it. If someone asked you what it means when it says his heart was hardened, what would be your answer? Probably something like he rejected Moses' request, not that his heart became a rock hard lump within his chest. The pharaoh rejected God and His commands. Pharaoh even admits this himself at one point:

Exodus 5:2(AKJV)
2 And Pharaoh said, Who is the Lord, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the Lord, neither will I let Israel go.

God did not do anything to Pharaoh; instead, his hatred for God and His commands mad the pharaoh reject Moses' request, which was actually God's request. Much like a lot of people do today. They hate God, so they do not obey His commandments and rules. God does not reach into their heart and manually cause them to hate Him.

One analogy I like using is this: we've all heard somebody at one time or another say something like, "my friend made me mad today." That does not mean their friend reached into that person's brain and cause the chemical reaction, etc., which happens when someone gets angry. Instead, what that person said or did, is what caused that person to get angry, due to the "victim's" frame of mind, pride, etc. The thought of obeying God's voice caused Pharaoh to reject Moses' request.

P.S. Here is a video which shows a lot of archaeological finds to do with the exodus, the Red Sea crossing, Mt. Sinai, the golden calf alter, the rock which God caused to spring forth water when Moses struck it with his staff, and a few other things. It's long, so maybe watch little bits here and there, or when you have the time to watch it all at once.

reply to post by FlyersFan


The hardening of Pharaoh's heart had more to do with the Lord desiring to mock the Egyptians gods. Each one of those plagues was custom tailored to mock their gods and show his sovereignty.

I don't think the Israelites were thieves, I think by the time God was through with the Egyptians, they were paying the Israelites their wages to leave, and then decided to just kill them and be done with it. A similar thing happened to Abraham 400 years before when he hid from the then reigning pharaoh that Sarah was his wife for fear they'd kill him, and Pharaoh slept with her and God started raining all these plagues down on the Egyptians and they basically paid Abraham to go away.