Obey the authorities or you will be punished!

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

Again, the evidence is in the gospels.

John 19
12 Then Pilate tried to release him, but the Jewish leaders shouted, “If you release this man, you are no ‘friend of Caesar.’ Anyone who declares himself a king is a rebel against Caesar.”

13 When they said this, Pilate brought Jesus out to them again. Then Pilate sat down on the judgment seat on the platform that is called the Stone Pavement (in Hebrew, Gabbatha). 14 It was now about noon on the day of preparation for the Passover. And Pilate said to the people, “Look, here is your king!”

15 “Away with him,” they yelled. “Away with him! Crucify him!”

“What? Crucify your king?” Pilate asked.

“We have no king but Caesar,” the leading priests shouted back.

16 Then Pilate turned Jesus over to them to be crucified.

So yes, he was crucified on the basis of treason against Caesar.

No He wasn't, He was crucified because the Jews picked Him over Barabbas. Pilate washed his hands because as far he was concerned Jesus did not commit a crime against Rome. He only did it to satisfy the Jews. Jesus was no threat to Rome, but a Jewish uprising was.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
To steer the thread back on topic.

Hebrews 13
17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Acts 5
29 But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men.

God is sending us mixed signals here. Do we obey the men in authority, or do we only obey god?

I'm confused.

Jesus wasn't a person who believed the powers that be had the best interests of the people, or that they were appointed by God, and therefore, shouldn't be questioned, and their laws should be followed unwaveringly.

Heck, he told the pharisees that their father was Satan! That certainly isn't in the humble spirit of Romans 13 and the lesson of submission to earthly authority.

Further, he applied some very overt civil disobedience in a very dramatic way.

Mark 11:15
And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves; 16 And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple. 17 And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.

In the end, he was crucified for his "civil disobedience" to the powers that God has supposedly put in place, for our own good, and his treasonous claim to be the "son of God." Jesus broke all kinds of laws; He healed people on the Sabbath, he ate things he wasn't supposed to, he didn't wash his hands according to the law..........

If Jesus was an example for us, then Romans 13 was written in the very spirit of those who's father is Satan, according to Jesus.

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker


And WHY did the Jews pick him? Because he was claiming to be the son of God and king. If the Jews didn't pick him for that reason, then why did they say this:

John 19
15 But they shouted, "Take him away! Take him away! Crucify him!" "Shall I crucify your king?" Pilate asked. "We have no king but Caesar," the chief priests answered.

Whether Pilate thought he was guilty or not is irrelevant because he ended up approving the crucifixion on the basis of the Jews condemning Jesus for claiming to be the son of God and usurping Caesar as god incarnate.

The Romans are the ones who nailed him to the cross. They even went on to heckle and slap Jesus around while on the cross. Pilate even offered the Jews the chance to do it themselves, but they refused and Roman soldiers ended up crucifying him.

Pilate even flogged Jesus after the decision was made to crucify him. Weird thing to do to an Innocent man if you ask me.

reply to post by windword


The Pharisees didn't disappear until at least 70 CE, a whole 13 years after Paul wrote his letter to the Romans.

If Pharisees were still an integral part of the ruling class when Paul wrote his letters, and Paul knew what Jesus thought of them, then why did he say to submit to those who Jesus said were the sons of Satan and a brood of vipers?

That's not even mentioning Paul being a Pharisee himself. If he was a son of Satan, and Satan is considered to be the deceiver, then how can we be so sure his supposed vision and conversion were genuine and not a deception?

Him bringing entirely new concepts into the fold and contradicting Jesus on numerous occasions should make the answer to that question extremely obvious.

And now for the part of the show where people who are not part of a particular religion try to tell people who are part of that religion that they are doing their religion wrong.

This works best if you convert first. Just sayin'

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

The Romans didn't carry out justice on behalf of, or to pacify, Jewish tribunals. They left that kind of thing for the Jews to sort out. The Roman killed Jesus for the crime of treason against the Roman authority of Caesar, claiming, supposedly, to be "King of the Jews."

Later, the Romans crucified no less than 6000 Jews outside the city walls of Jerusalem, during the Jewish Roman wars for the same crime, treason against Caesar.

edit on 23-7-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)

Pilate was the Roman overseer of Jerusalem, he was recorded as saying

Matthew 27:24
New International Version (NIV)
24 When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. “I am innocent of this man’s blood,” he said. “It is your responsibility!”

Effectively leaving Christs fate with the Jews

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Roman soldiers crucified him and Pilate, who worked for Rome, fastened "King of the Jews" onto the cross.

This is pretty common knowledge.

edit on 23-7-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

edit on 23-7-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

Yeah they fastened King of the Jews on the cross
That doesnt mean they demanded His death

In fact the Jews were very upset by that claim.

reply to post by borntowatch


So? What are you saying? Are you saying that Jesus wasn't convicted of anything, but the Romans killed him anyway, just for fun and to make Jews happy?

Originally posted by borntowatch

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Roman soldiers crucified him and Pilate, who worked for Rome, fastened "King of the Jews" onto the cross.

This is pretty common knowledge.

edit on 23-7-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

edit on 23-7-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

Yeah they fastened King of the Jews on the cross

That was his crime, insurrection against Caesar, claiming to be the "Son of God" "King of the Jews."

That doesnt mean they demanded His death

"They" demanded his death.

In fact the Jews were very upset by that claim.

Yes, the Jews denied that Jesus was their king, they accused him of claiming the title "King of the Jews".

Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by borntowatch

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Roman soldiers crucified him and Pilate, who worked for Rome, fastened "King of the Jews" onto the cross.

This is pretty common knowledge.

edit on 23-7-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

edit on 23-7-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

Yeah they fastened King of the Jews on the cross

That was his crime, insurrection against Caesar, claiming to be the "Son of God" "King of the Jews."

That doesnt mean they demanded His death

"They" demanded his death.

In fact the Jews were very upset by that claim.

Yes, the Jews denied that Jesus was their king, they accused him of claiming the title "King of the Jews".

You have never ever ever read the bible, that is so obvious.
If you say you have you didnt understand one word of it, was it a Greek text???

reply to post by borntowatch

Yeah they fastened King of the Jews on the cross

Why did they do that?

That doesnt mean they demanded His death

Why was he killed by the Romans? What was his crime, in your Bible smarty pants opinion?

In fact the Jews were very upset by that claim.

Why, do you suppose that was? Was it because his life foreshadowed the sentiments of Romans 13 and he submitted himself to earthly authority?

reply to post by borntowatch


Are you sure you've read the bible? Because your question was a really easy one. I wouldn't be surprised if we knew more about the bible than you do honestly.

Originally posted by windword
That was his crime, insurrection against Caesar, claiming to be the "Son of God" "King of the Jews."

Being the "Son of God" was not a crime against Rome, and it was not Christ who claimed that he was "King of the Jews."

You complain that I unfairly criticize you for not having read the Bible, and yet if you had, you would not have written that. In all four gospels, Pilate asks Jesus if he is "King of the Jews", and in all four instances, Christ notes that it is an accusation that Pilate is bringing, not something that he claims.

Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, “Are you the king of the Jews?”

“Is that your own idea,” Jesus asked, “or did others talk to you about me?”

“Am I a Jew?” Pilate replied. “Your own people and chief priests handed you over to me. What is it you have done?”

Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

“You are a king, then!” said Pilate.

Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king." (John 18:33-37 NIV)

reply to post by adjensen


Did I ever say that Jesus was guilty of the crimes of which he was accused? Are you trying to tell me that Jesus wasn't crucified by the Romans for perceived crimes against Caesar?

What's your point?

Did Jesus foreshadow Romans 13 by submitting himself to authority as an example for us to follow, or did he rebel against earthly authority, and was therefore brought before Pilot and crucified as a result of his "civil disobedience"?

reply to post by adjensen


So Pontius Pilate saying "You are a king then!" means Rome didn't punish him for supposedly claiming to be king how? If Pilate accused him of claiming to be king, that is what he was crucified for. Those were the charges brought against him, as Pilate testifies to when he says that.

Whether Jesus himself claimed to be king is irrelevant because that is what Pilate claimed him to be, which is why he fastened "King of the Jews" onto the cross. If Rome (Pilate) didn't crucify him for supposedly claiming to be king, they wouldn't have written that on the cross, but they did.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen

 

Did I ever say that Jesus was guilty of the crimes of which he was accused? Are you trying to tell me that Jesus wasn't crucified by the Romans for perceived crimes against Caesar?

What's your point?

You said this:

That was his crime, insurrection against Caesar, claiming to be the "Son of God" "King of the Jews."

As I said, claiming to be the "Son of God" wasn't a crime against Caesar or Rome, and Jesus did not claim to be "King of the Jews", so your statement is not valid and demonstrates a lack of knowledge in the Bible that would have been remedied if you'd have taken my advice and spent twenty minutes reading about the events of Holy Week.

That's my point.

reply to post by adjensen

As I said, claiming to be the "Son of God" wasn't a crime against Caesar or Rome,

Yes it was. It was treason, and that's why the pharisees brought Jesus to Pilot. That WAS the crime he was accused of, and that was the crime for which he was sentenced to death! Reading comprehension, my friend, will help you follow along. Jesus was convicted of a crime. That's why he was crucified by the Romans. The nature of crime, "King of Jews" was posted above his him, on the cross, according to the story.

He was crucified because he did NOT submit to earthly authority, as we are advised to do in Romans 13. If Jesus is our example, and he called the pharisees of the day, "Sons of Satan, and "A brood of vipers", and tore up the temple plaza, while tossing the table and whipping the money changers, he obviously didn't believe that they were ordained to their earthly authority by God, as Romans 13 suggests.

and Jesus did not claim to be "King of the Jews", so your statement is not valid and demonstrates a lack of knowledge in the Bible

Reading comprehension, my friend, will help you follow along. I REPEAT! I never claimed that Jesus was guilty of the the crime he was accused of. But, Jesus was convicted of a crime. That's why he was crucified by the Romans.

that would have been remedied if you'd have taken my advice and spent twenty minutes reading about the events of Holy Week.

The events of Holy week have nothing to do with the context of this thread, about submitting to earthly authority, which Jesus didn't do. The life and teachings of Jesus are a rebuttal to Romans 13, which, in my opinion in an interpolation to assert the doctrine of the "divine rights of kings".

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen

 

As I said, claiming to be the "Son of God" wasn't a crime against Caesar or Rome,

Yes it was. It was treason, and that's why the pharisees brought Jesus to Pilot.

Nope.

So long as you bowed down to the Emperor and the state gods, the Romans didn't care one iota about what you believed or claimed to be. The Jews had a special dispensation because they were fanatically monotheistic.

Claiming to be the "Son of God" was blasphemy to the Jews, it meant nothing to Pilate or the Roman government.

How could it be treason, thats absurd.
There are so many educated atheists around here who have no idea what is written in the bible,
yet are smart enough to understand every word and saying.
Cant even show anybody where Jesus claimed to be a king.


Look at this thread stating-
Christians should base all their beliefs on the foundation of one a single chapter in Romans?
Seriously and they believe they understand the bible
I doubt any of them have ever read the bible

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen

 

As I said, claiming to be the "Son of God" wasn't a crime against Caesar or Rome,

Yes it was. It was treason, and that's why the pharisees brought Jesus to Pilot.

Nope.

So long as you bowed down to the Emperor and the state gods, the Romans didn't care one iota about what you believed or claimed to be. The Jews had a special dispensation because they were fanatically monotheistic.

Claiming to be the "Son of God" was blasphemy to the Jews, it meant nothing to Pilate or the Roman government.

The Romans would have had to slaughter every Jew in Jerusalem, as not one Jew would bow down to the Roman gods, in fact the Romans accepted the Jewish religion and its practices openly.
Even allowed Jewish religious laws and counsels

Matthew 27:24
New International Version (NIV)
24 When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. “I am innocent of this man’s blood,” he said. “It is your responsibility!”

The Roman representative washed his hands of Christs crucifixion, left the internal Jewish religious matter to the Jews.