Who is Man to Take Away Free Will???

Originally posted by Classygirl
Again, rape is a regualr occurence and a women can become impregnated. 1 out of 3 women are raped.

You didn't check those links for rape facts did you?

1 out of 3 college women have reported being raped. The actual number of rapes occuring in the United States forms a much smaller ratio. Feel free to research the numbers to discover what this ratio really is.

Take Care.

1 out of 3 women report rape, and even still there are many occurences that go on reported which makes it much higher.

Also, it doesn't matter how often rape occurs. The point is that rape occurs, and this can cause a women to become pregnant, which can lead a women to want an abortion.

Originally posted by Classygirl
1 out of 3 women report rape, and even still there are many occurences that go on reported which makes it much higher.

Also, it doesn't matter how often rape occurs. The point is that rape occurs, and this can cause a women to become pregnant, which can lead a women to want an abortion.

Since you refuse to check the links...

Data from the National Women's Study, a longitudinal telephone survey of a national household probability sample of women at least 18 years of age, show 683,000 women forcibly raped each year and that 84% of rape victims did not report the offense to the police.

The adult pregnancy rate associated with rape is estimated to be 4.7%. This information, in conjunction with estimates based on the U.S. Census, suggest that there may be 32,101 annual rape-related pregnancies among American women over the age of 18.

32,101 pregnacies due to rape is only 2.44% of the 1.3 million abortions each year.

As I said, "relatively few cases do not justify the complete legality of abortion."

The point is, do you think that abortion should be available for that 4.7%?

[Edited on 27-11-2004 by Classygirl]

You are entitled to your opinion, I just want to hear your answer. I won't criticize your point. Everyone has their personal views for a reason, and I no longer feel that we should be wasting our precious time debating about this subject. My plan has been accomplished. I came here to be heard, and I was, and I'm glad to be able to discuss this issue with you and the others.

You are totally wrong because rapists, child molesters, thieves, etc are threatened with imprisonment/fines, and STILL do it. Common sense shows that there WILL be more deaths of people if it is illegal. You have to mature and understand human nature. When people are desperate, a threat is worthless. You can't help humans unless you know them. This is how Jesus was soooo effective with humans while He walked the Earth.

Also Love + the Word will lower the chances of death, I agree with you there, but you still can't use the government to enforce this. You probably aren't even aware of the amount of rights the government is taking from you. Wake up!! Open your eyes, and get out there and see what is really happening.

Ask for His Wisdom.

More deaths if its illegal? how you figure that?
So you want to have no laws made by man? let them murder, rape and molest children, because to tell them they cant violates there free will?
whats wrong with you, been excersing free will to do crack? Sure threats wont work but a bullet will ensure no repeat offence and they can go straight to hell too!

In a perfect world everyone would live by christ teaching and then there would be no need for man made law, BUT ITS NOT A PERFECT WORLD SWEETHEART !!! Time YOU got off the god box and woke up!

AS for abortion, I dont like it but i neither condemn, I agree it should not be legislated and that the government does indeed interfer with far too many facets of our lives by way of legislation. Law should be a guide to acceptable behaviour, but it comes down to our desire for revenge and to punish. If someone harms my child, I want him dead, prefrably by my own hand, if not by the state. And who teaches us so much about punishment and retribution? Your god! Live like this or burn in hell forever! sound familiar? Such n such is sin, the wages of sin is eternl damnation bla bla bla.
There is no other book on the planet so self contridictory as the bible.




[Edited on 28-11-2004 by instar]

Originally posted by Seapeople
Getting to my point......again.

If you commit the murder (abortion), he already knew you would a year ago. This means one thing simply. If our actions for tomorrow are already spelled out today....THEN WE HAVE NO CHOICE WHEN ALL IS SAID AND DONE! Free will is not permitted if you believe God is all-powerful and Omnipotent.

I'm not following. If someone is placed in a position and are considering to have an abortion. They have the choice of either doing it or not. God knew before creation what would happen to everyone in all and any circumstances. So the God who knows everything can take our mistakes because He knew we would make them and allow us to make them knowing that further down the road He will use that decision we made for our benefit. But this mainly applies to those who have put their trust in Him through Christ.

The thing is the God who knows all can prevent things. He can, if He chooses, keep us from doing things because He does know the future and the impact our choices make. But there is one thing God will not completely overrule our free will in, salvation. God calls EVERYONE, but not everyone will respond yes to Christ, so if you choose to reject Christ up until the moment you die, He will allow that choice in your life. I don't completely understand that, but I'm also not God. I can't create the universe out of nothing. When you were a child, and if you had loving responsible parents as you were growing up, you put trust in them even if you didn't understand everything. The same principle is here. A christian doesn't know all things about God and His ways and means and purposes. But we have chosen on our own to believe in and follow Christ. It's a daily choice we make when we are bombarded by the world with sin opportunities. I am thankful God does know all things and has prevented me from doing some things. But those times I choose wrong and God allows me to "taste" the result of my sin, I know He is working things out for good.

Satan lied to Adam and Eve in the garden but there was also a small bit of truth to his lie. he told them they would be like God knowing right and wrong. When they disobeyed they didn't KNOW right and wrong, they did right and wrong. Satan knew one wrong(sin) would seperate them from God and deaden their spirit so they wold turn from God and committ sin and lead a destructive(instead of constructive life). But God already knew He Himself would come down to earth some 4000 years after this event and fix the problem at the precise moment He determined through His omniscence. Through acceptance of Christ a believer Now Actually does know the difference between right and wrong. We have God with us which enables us to say NO to sin. Right now God is working something out in believers that we won't see or understand completely until we enter eternity.

"More deaths if its illegal? how you figure that?
So you want to have no laws made by man? let them murder, rape and molest children, because to tell them they cant violates there free will?
whats wrong with you, been excersing free will to do crack? Sure threats wont work but a bullet will ensure no repeat offence and they can go straight to hell too!

In a perfect world everyone would live by christ teaching and then there would be no need for man made law, BUT ITS NOT A PERFECT WORLD SWEETHEART !!! Time YOU got off the god box and woke up!"

You have entered the debate a little too late. I have already explained everything that I wanted to. Also, if you want to debate, read ALL my posts, thoroughly.
Not to be rude but you need to study the Lord's Word in order to understand this world, how it works, and what is going on right now. The Bible is not only about history, and Salvation, but is a road map for Christians on how not to fall away with such a destructive world. I'm sure that you aren't even aware of certain conspiracies that threaten to take your freedom, health, etc... It doesn't sit well with me that a person who is asleep tell me to wake up.

Originally posted by Classygirl
"More deaths if its illegal? how you figure that?
So you want to have no laws made by man? let them murder, rape and molest children, because to tell them they cant violates there free will?
whats wrong with you, been excersing free will to do crack? Sure threats wont work but a bullet will ensure no repeat offence and they can go straight to hell too!

In a perfect world everyone would live by christ teaching and then there would be no need for man made law, BUT ITS NOT A PERFECT WORLD SWEETHEART !!! Time YOU got off the god box and woke up!"

You have entered the debate a little too late. I have already explained everything that I wanted to. Also, if you want to debate, read ALL my posts, thoroughly.
Not to be rude but you need to study the Lord's Word in order to understand this world, how it works, and what is going on right now. The Bible is not only about history, and Salvation, but is a road map for Christians on how not to fall away with such a destructive world. I'm sure that you aren't even aware of certain conspiracies that threaten to take your freedom, health, etc... It doesn't sit well with me that a person who is asleep tell me to wake up.

(a) im not a christian and christians like you preaching and bible thumping dont sit well with me. I DONT NEED to study the lords word to understand reality, ive been livin in it 35 years , Im well aware how it is, and not concerned how YOU think it is! Conspiracys my butt, the only conspiracy is our own self delusion. Blame anything but ourselves!
(b) You tell me you dont want to be rude but you call me "asleep" as in ignorant unaware?
Is arrogance and self delusions part of christianity too? You cloud the issue with holier than thou nonsense and deny reality. Conspiracy theorys, and theorys are all they are till proven, have nothing to do with weather or not folk do or do not choose to do something, nor weather its right or wrong.
Freewill is terrific sweetheart and may well be "a god given gift" but it has no bearing the fact that as a society we want folk held accountable for their actions against us NOW, not in "heaven" !

[Edited on 29-11-2004 by instar]

so if what yer saying is correct that if christians are imposing force to stop abortion, than another words we shouldnt have ANY laws at all, and let anyone do whatever the heck they feel like, cause we want to give them the choice, so we may as well make everything legal, uncluding killing anyone ya want, rape, and all that other stuff.

"im not a christian and christians like you preaching and bible thumping dont sit well with me. I DONT NEED to study the lords word to understand reality, ive been livin in it 35 years , Im well aware how it is, and not concerned how YOU think it is! Conspiracys my butt, the only conspiracy is our own self delusion. Blame anything but ourselves!"

I told you that you were asleep. Of course I didn't want to be rude, but I will tell you the truth, whether or not it is rude. How can you live for 35 years and don't know what's going on? The events prophesied in the Bible match with what is going on, right now, but you don't see it. But, I am happy to know that there are a lot of informed people around.

I will continue to "Bible thump". You keep doing whatever it is that you do, and I will do what I'm doing no matter what you think.

Also, if you are looking for an intelligent debate, read all my posts, beforehand. I can tell when an opponent hasn't read all the posts by what he/she writes.

Read all my posts and come back to debate. If you come back without reading all the posts, I can tell you want to quarrel. You seem like a person who is only hostile online. Some people release hostility online when they can't confront issues offline.

"so if what yer saying is correct that if christians are imposing force to stop abortion, than another words we shouldnt have ANY laws at all, and let anyone do whatever the heck they feel like, cause we want to give them the choice, so we may as well make everything legal, uncluding killing anyone ya want, rape, and all that other stuff."

You didn't read all my posts. Please read them all.
With every choice, there is a consequence. If someone rapes another, the consequence is punishment. BUT, my point is that the women will be the one giving birth. It is HER body. I have no control over what she does with her body.

You all really need to read all my posts because I have addressed this point already. If you read all my posts, you would already know where I stand.

I have a question: Do you all respond after only reading my initial post? If you do this, you will not see what I wrote in the posts when I was debating other people. In order to have a good debate, one has to read all the posts to know where I stand. Some of you came too late to the debate.

From now on, if anyone debates me about something I have already made clear, I will just direct you to read my posts, and then come back for a real debate.

Read all my posts and come back to debate. If you come back without reading all the posts, I can tell you want to quarrel. You seem like a person who is only hostile online. Some people release hostility online when they can't confront issues offline.

Im only hostile when some zealous pain in the butt annoys me by making untold assumptions about what i know or beleive without even having met me, based on nothing but a single post! I did read all your longwinded soulsaving yakkety yak and came to the conclusion your no different than any other goody two shoes bible thumping soulsaving pushy christian.
If you dont like what i had to say then respond with an intelligent reply instead of painting me a hostile and ignorant person, just because i dont agree with you. Cut the God loves you, save your soul crap and just get to the point, i.e. you dont like that there are more and more laws telling folk how to live these days. You read back and you'll see I agreed with the sentiment.
Out of interest, Id be happy to hear what you think of laws pertaining to Euthanasia/ assisted euthanasia?
Im sure you've got plenty to say about almost anything since your so all knowing and "right with god":shk: (is there an exasperated eye-rolling smiley somewhere)

I have spoken to you intelligently, but you seem very immature for your age. You sounded like a child, when you first came here. Everyone else in here had valid arguments and were worthy of my time because they were actually debating. You just want to argue.

Also, I can tell a little about what you know because I mentioned things about conspiracies that the Bible has predicted, but you obviously, refuted it. I know that you don't know about the conspiracies because you said that you don't believe in them, basically. Also, I will continue to preach. I can't help you with that.

So, you want to debate or what?

If you read all my posts you wouldn't have come to the conclusion that you have concerning my beliefs.

[Edited on 29-11-2004 by Classygirl]

Classygirl

I know that you don't know about the conspiracies because you said that you don't believe in them, basically.

You dont need to believe in something to know about something...
Am i right in saying this statement??? no/yes

i dont believe in God, yet i have 5periods of Religious Education each week.

:bnghd::bnghd::bnghd:

Classygirl

In a perfect world everyone would live by christ teaching and then there would be no need for man made law, BUT ITS NOT A PERFECT WORLD SWEETHEART !!! Time YOU got off the god box and woke up!"

I believe this is true, all of it. But i dont believe the bibles teachings are. I believe that the words of the great philosopher Jesus, is quite different to what the majority of modern day catholic teachings are. Isnt it true that the Vadican council have no time for homosexuals? do they? Well if they dont, not even they have the word of jesus correct.

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by Seapeople
Getting to my point......again.

If you commit the murder (abortion), he already knew you would a year ago. This means one thing simply. If our actions for tomorrow are already spelled out today....THEN WE HAVE NO CHOICE WHEN ALL IS SAID AND DONE! Free will is not permitted if you believe God is all-powerful and Omnipotent.

Your God, then, by your own words...condemsn you hell....before you were ever born. It is really a shame.

I'm not following. If someone is placed in a position and are considering to have an abortion. They have the choice of either doing it or not. God knew before creation what would happen to everyone in all and any circumstances. So the God who knows everything can take our mistakes because He knew we would make them and allow us to make them knowing that further down the road He will use that decision we made for our benefit. But this mainly applies to those who have put their trust in Him through Christ.

The thing is the God who knows all can prevent things. He can, if He chooses, keep us from doing things because He does know the future and the impact our choices make. But there is one thing God will not completely overrule our free will in, salvation. God calls EVERYONE, but not everyone will respond yes to Christ, so if you choose to reject Christ up until the moment you die, He will allow that choice in your life. I don't completely understand that, but I'm also not God. I can't create the universe out of nothing. When you were a child, and if you had loving responsible parents as you were growing up, you put trust in them even if you didn't understand everything. The same principle is here. A christian doesn't know all things about God and His ways and means and purposes. But we have chosen on our own to believe in and follow Christ. It's a daily choice we make when we are bombarded by the world with sin opportunities. I am thankful God does know all things and has prevented me from doing some things. But those times I choose wrong and God allows me to "taste" the result of my sin, I know He is working things out for good.

Satan lied to Adam and Eve in the garden but there was also a small bit of truth to his lie. he told them they would be like God knowing right and wrong. When they disobeyed they didn't KNOW right and wrong, they did right and wrong. Satan knew one wrong(sin) would seperate them from God and deaden their spirit so they wold turn from God and committ sin and lead a destructive(instead of constructive life). But God already knew He Himself would come down to earth some 4000 years after this event and fix the problem at the precise moment He determined through His omniscence. Through acceptance of Christ a believer Now Actually does know the difference between right and wrong. We have God with us which enables us to say NO to sin. Right now God is working something out in believers that we won't see or understand completely until we enter eternity.

On the 'rape pregnacy' thing.. are the stats exlusively for women who are able to concieve? [child bearing years].

[edit on 21-12-2004 by riley]

Whoever posted this......

No I'm afraid you're thinking about it in the wrong way. We are given free will - God understands our natures and gives us the choice to love him and live by his will or not. Just because he knows who will and who won't accept this doesn't mean that they are not given the choice.

If you are in charge of a class of students and you know a few of them are likely to misbehave that doesn't take away from the fact that it is their choice as to whether they misbehave or not. The children that misbehave will be sent to detention - but you cannot say it was you that intentionally put them there. It was their actions that led to their punishment and they wanted to misbehave.

That's the correct way to look at it.

Crap! I understand my kids natures too, by your twisted thinking, I may aswell punish my kids now because I know they wont clean their room etc
Not much point in giving them choice is there?
So god may aswell send most of us straight to hell, he knows we will sin!
I say to my kids, I want you to clean your room or ill I punish you, im wasting my time, I know they wont, they will be doing anything else but.
If I later go in and punish them for not doing it, this makes sense to you?
Would it not make more sense to say, if you clean your room today, ill take you to the movies. Then if they still dont, I dont take them.
Then they have choice, clean and get a movie or play and no movie. By this they actually learn there is value in obedience.
How does the threat of eternal hell encourage? where is the choice?
God knows folk wont beleive, so they burn in hell anyway, regardless how they lived?
Religious "reasoning" is mentally ill in my opinion!

Classygirl, why have you not answered my question about Euthanasia?

Can anyone even tell me exactly what a choice is and how you choose? Free-will is a pipe dream. Our actions will always be bound by genetics and the environment we grow up in.