Disgusting... cross dressing camp for children.

Originally posted by Gazrok
reply to post by Sk8ergrl

 

So do you have experience with trans people? have you had friends with gender disorder? I do know what I'm talking about.

Yes, in fact, I do (including a close relative). And I can tell you that NEITHER of them had any inkling about it before they were in double digits of age.

So, don't presume to tell me what I do or do not know please.

Sure, there will be signs when younger (that are clearer with hindsight), but to actually KNOW and have some well-defined idea of that identity, at age 4? Please.... Yeah, there is some denial going on...but not where you think...

Maybe I'm just crazy, in thinking that MAJOR LIFE AFFECTING DECISIONS shouldn't be made by 4 year olds...but somehow, I'm thinking I'm in the majority here....

Well don't assume that I don't know about TG people and let me tell you my friends knew their true gender at an early age and yes I understand that everyone's different and some find their true gender younger than others. If you go to a gender clinic lots of TG boys and girls knew that they wanted to be a boy or girl at an early age.

Cross-dressing boys occur in many cultures, including the dancing boys in some localized Islamic traditions, such as in Afghanistan.

There are Youtube clips of such dancing boys available, although I thought it best not to embed them, since some of it seems sexualized (although highly stylized) and it will just inflame Islamophobia.

I'm also not sure if the boys have a choice in the matter.

Here the tradition seems to stem from cultures that are so gender segregated that women cannot provide entertainment in homosocial male spaces, and the role of the female dancer is thus performed by an adolescent boy.
I guess this is similar to Shakepseare's time, when all the female roles were performed by boys, because women were not allowed on the stage.

How much this actually has to do with homosexuality is questionable.

As for the US camp, the information is very sketchy, so I couldn't say I agree or disagree.
I certainly wish camps like this were around in my childhood, although I would never have been allowed to go.
Although SA back then was very militarized with a macho patriarchy (homosexuality was taboo), there was opportunity to get into drag on stage, and nobody thought it was anything other than theater or comic relief.

I would be very against it if any boy is forced into wearing a dress or forced to partake.
I'd also be against it if it furthers the kind of catty, stereotypical femininity of highly competitive all-girl pageants (which come uncomfortably close to flirtatious sexuality).

Gender non-conformity in childhood is certainly a factor in people who turn out gay or lesbian, however that can be a very constant and at times subtle trait, and there's no evidence that either forbidding or vindicating it will make any difference.
Drag is really a form of theater, and female clothing is more fun as a costume (male garments have been quite drab since the Victorians in Western culture, not-withstanding some subcultures like glam-rock, hair-metal or make-up laden televangelists).

As theatrics that are confined to a certain time or space, drag then also re-inscribes the boundaries of wider gender norms.
That is, by confining the event to a camp there's also a realization that it is not the wider norm.
Sure, drag will inflame some people, but so will nudist camps or Jesus camps.

I doubt all these kids will grow up to be gay or even straight transvestites (like Peter Humphries /Dame Edna).

That would be like saying that all Boy Scouts will turn out to be uniform fetishists, or all kids that are spanked will turn out sado-masochists.

Ironically, the dominant theme in Western gay erotica is actually a form of hyper-masculinity, although this is rarely examined as a gender performance.

It's a pity though that inclusive cultural spaces seemingly no longer exist where this can be seen as a bit of theatrical fun, rather than framed in terms of adult lgbt politics.
But I'd really have to understand the cultural context of the participants to make a judgement on that.
If the culture is so conservative that no expression of drag is allowed, then one could understand the need for a camp.

Allowing homosexuals equal rights as adults, does not = promoting it in young minds. And this should be illegal and massive abuse.

It seems to me that we have Little Nicky's version of government in.

reply to post by halfoldman

Cross-dressing boys occur in many cultures, including the dancing boys in some localized Islamic traditions, such as in Afghanistan.

Are you talking about Bacha Bazi? That's not "Islamic" tradition, as you are trying to paint it.
In fact, its illegal in Islamic law... and Islamic leaders have called for the punishment of those who practice it. But I guess anything carried out by guys in beards and turban automatically becomes "Islamic" tradition for some people.

It's a pity though that inclusive cultural spaces seemingly no longer exist where this can be seen as a bit of theatrical fun, rather than framed in terms of adult lgbt politics.

The fact that you have adults holding these camps and having "special" days for school kids, shows that it IS adult lgbt politics aimed at children... not just innocent theatrical fun.

reply to post by Sk8ergrl


Thing is, these are adults looking back with that hindsight I mentioned. They are remembering the "signs" that they were transgender, but do you really think they can analyze how they really felt at age 4? Can you? I'm a different person than I was at age 4, or age 10, or age 15, or age 25, and any attempt to truly explain how I felt about anything from the perspective of BEING that age, would be extremely tainted by life experience, retrospect, and insight.

We may just have to agree to disagree here. I'm all for people becoming what they want to be, if it makes them happy, but allowing a kid to pigeon-hole themselves, when they've been on the planet less than a decade, is to me...a great disservice to the kid. It takes many years to develop one's identity, and that (to me) includes defining gender roles and tendencies, etc.

Originally posted by Gazrok
reply to post by Sk8ergrl

 

Thing is, these are adults looking back with that hindsight I mentioned. They are remembering the "signs" that they were transgender, but do you really think they can analyze how they really felt at age 4? Can you? I'm a different person than I was at age 4, or age 10, or age 15, or age 25, and any attempt to truly explain how I felt about anything from the perspective of BEING that age, would be extremely tainted by life experience, retrospect, and insight.

We may just have to agree to disagree here. I'm all for people becoming what they want to be, if it makes them happy, but allowing a kid to pigeon-hole themselves, when they've been on the planet less than a decade, is to me...a great disservice to the kid. It takes many years to develop one's identity, and that (to me) includes defining gender roles and tendencies, etc.

edit on 18-7-2013 by Gazrok because: (no reason given)

Please don't get me wrong I do respect your opinion.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

It would seem that the clip I saw is indeed part of "Bacha bazi".
Reading more about it makes it clear that this custom is often connected to sexual slavery, and I'm glad it was declared illegal under sharia and civil law.
Enforcing that law seems to be rather difficult, since those guys with beards and turbans seem to be very powerful individuals in their specific Islamic society.
en.wikipedia.org...
I don't think it was inaccurate to say that it is a feature in some, localized Islamic traditions.
In the same way one could say that making boys castrati was a (historically) localized Catholic tradition.
en.wikipedia.org...
I never said that it was a part of the Islamic religion or a "uniform" tradition.

Similarly, there is no uniform lgbt tradition.

Not all events that include cross-dressing have anything to do with lgbt politics.
We have a casual day, and every year all the people who work in a specific bank cross-dress, and it's simply done for a laugh and team-spirit.
There was also a month last year to raise awareness for testicular cancer, and men are encouraged to grow mustaches, and it ends in parties where women come with fake mustaches.
I was actually surprised that until now no ultra-conservative religious killjoy has complained.
For now they still seem to be coming to grips with Halloween becoming an increasingly local tradition.

I'd really like to see more on the camp, perhaps an entire documentary, because the article wasn't very informative.
Is it merely for fun, or are the kids somehow diagnosed as transgendered?
I'm not transgendered, so I really don't know very much about it.

Perhaps it's good that they're learning needle-work and dress-making, and I wished as a kid that I could have learnt to knit or do sewing with the girls.
Instead, all the boys were forced to do woodwork, which I hated, and it was a complete of time.
At least they are learning a skill which they seem to be good at.

Reading on the "two-spirit" tradition (or third gender traditions) in tribal cultures, it becomes clear that gender was defined by labor.
If a boy was, for example, better at weaving baskets than men's work, he could dress like the opposite gender.
In that sense what is shown is nothing completely new in some cultures, as long as the boys are not forced into this on the whims of their parents.
en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by halfoldman

Is it merely for fun, or are the kids somehow diagnosed as transgendered?

Its about sneaking in an agenda using "fun" ways.

If a boy was, for example, better at weaving baskets than men's work, he could dress like the opposite gender.

So then, if a girl likes guy things (like playing video games FOR EXAMPLE) she is expected to cut her hair short and dress and behave like a guy?

Call me "old fashioned", but I believe its better to raise little boys to be MEN... not dress wearing girls.... for the sake of appeasing dress wearing minorities.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

I suppose people must raise and understand their individual children as they see fit.

Not all of these boys have long hair, and most could resume their role as regular boys when the dress comes off.
It's not some kind of permanent mutilation, but just a garment.

Girls seem to generally have a wider choice in how they dress or wear their hair, and a girl who wears pants and enjoys some masculine activities won't immediately be seen in a lgbt context (only perhaps in very conservative communities).
Perhaps this is because masculinity is given a higher social value, even in women, while femininity is seen as frivolous.
Suffice to say that I don't know of real opportunities for boys who show the proclivity to make a dress and get to wear it at an event apart from this.
It would be heavily stigmatized activity elsewhere.
Raising boys into rigid masculinity at all costs, even at squashing natural talents, could also limit their future possibilities.
The kind of masculinity that some in society want to push on all boys at all costs (the "tough guise") also comes with significant social problems (there's a whole documentary on the Tough Guise on Youtube, and the way this concept of manhood disadvantages men).
The idea that some boys cannot be raised as "men" because they wear a dress at an event also seems like a very narrow definition, and the wider "solution" seems to be to teach boys to stoically repress that inclination.
Some boys in schools are nowadays harming their bodies with supplements and steroids just to live up to a masculine image.
Yet, this gets very little social censure.

These boys don't seem to copy minorities, but girls in their own culture.

But before I defend this, I'd like to be sure that the boys actually want this, and that they are not paraded like poodles at a dog show to fulfill some competitive wishes of the parents.
If I see these reality shows on pageants with small girls, they can appear quite happy on stage, but sometimes I feel the mothers are much too competitive and living out their own dreams through their daughters.
At least this seems less competitive, and some of the boys are barefoot, and the obsession with detail is less severe.