Race. We must talk about it, but we can't. Help, please?

Originally posted by FuZe7
reply to post by SilentKillah

 

That's an interesting story, but it's definitely not the norm.

I'm a landlord (a good one), I know first hand how bad it is. Everyone here who has any experience with Section 8 knows what a drain it is on the entire community. These people have no investment in where they live, or their neighbors, so they generally just don't give a #.

I feel most sorry for old people that moved into what was a nice neighborhood in the 1950s or 60s, they end up never moving away and being surrounded by people who throw trash all over their yards, don't mow the grass, have loud cars that leak oil everywhere and blare their stereos at all hours.

Well... that's the first somewhat non negative thing that I've heard you say in response to me. Thanks and I mean that sincerely.

I know how renters can be, and I'm sorry if you've experienced nothing but bad renters. The first house I had was torn to shreds by renters when I was on active duty and had orders. They happened to be contractors renting the house in lieu of paying hotel fees while working on base. The second renters however left the house without anything wrong, 3 kids and a dog. It's not about what's Section 8... it's about the individual living there. Some people today are formally from the middle class and facing a bad situation trying to recover. These people may need some government assistance while they get back on their feet.

reply to post by SilentKillah


Believe it or not, but I'm sincerely trying to see it from a different point of view than my own.


For example, your problem with private citizens profiling others on a racial bases, as if it's wrong.

If I'm statistically much more likely to be victimized by an African American (regardless of the underlying cause), why shouldn't I profile? You would have to be completely naive to ignore these important human instincts.

I didn't personally oppress anyone, my ancestors walked here at the turn of the century (500 miles) from Appalachia where they were virtual slaves in a coal mine. No one gave them anything.


On the subject of supposed "white privilege", (if I am the supposed beneficiary of it) why is that wrong? No one likes the idea of separate communities where some prosper and others live in poverty. On the other hand though, I can't see how my people (family, neighbors, community) who happen to be of the same race are vilified for not going outside their circle in hiring, business, where they live, etc...?

WE'RE BACK TO TREYVON AND GEORGE???? Come on, guys. I'd rather have the thread die than become one more thread on that subject.

___________________________________________________________________

Allow me to try a different approach. I dont know if it's good or bad. I do know I'll get called names. I'm floating this as a way to stir things up a little. I hope you'll change and improve on this. For purposes of simplicity, we'll have two groups at the table, Whites (W) and Blacks (B). Our hypothetical discussion might go like this:

(W) OK, you're unhappy with your lives, everybody can see that. Let's do this one problem at a time. What's the biggest problem you face?

(B) Money. We can't get jobs, benefits are being cut or ended. Our poverty is killing us.

(W) Got it. Well, as far as I can tell, the benefits are pretty much the same regardless of race. Everybody's in pretty much the same boat. Why are you getting benefits?

(B) Jobs, we can't get jobs. The benefits may be fair, but the employers' are racist.

(W) If you can show that, then the employers are punished, and you can collect. But I notice that doesn't happen much. What do the employers want, in your opinion besides White skin?

(B) They want clean arrest records, drug tests, and the ability to read and write well and do math.

(W) Nothing seems too bad there, I suppose they ask it of everyone. Is anyone making you do drugs or get arrested?

(B) Do drugs, no, but everyone does it, it's part of the culture. If you don't, you're an outsider.

(W) And that's something you want to be an insider of? Sounds like that's your choice. What about criminal records?

(B) The police are racist too. We can be doing absolutely nothing, and the next thing we know we're in jail for 1-3 years. We can't get a job then.

(W) The police (including Black police) and the judges are the racist ones? It seems that however you got the record, the employers are just going by what their told.

(B) Yeah, that's true. It's not the employers. We can't get jobs because of a racist legal system.

(W) It should be noted that if a jury pool has even one black member, the conviction rate for Whites is 73% and for Blacks 71%. This isn't for the people who are selected for the jury, just those in the jury pool. (They corrected their article, see update at bottom.) www.motherjones.com... And if the arrest is for drugs, again, isn't that your choice?

(B) OK, maybe so, but the schools don't teach us anything, so we can't get decent jobs.

(W) I think you're absolutely right. Let's do a complete make over of the schools so you can get something worthwhile from them.

(B) All right, let's try that.

(B) and (W) together (exchanging determined looks ) Brother!

reply to post by FuZe7


Had the souls that happen to have been born as Africans, been European and vice versa the story would be the exact same.

Had Africans had the means to sail the oceans and explore while Europeans were living in a primitive state they would have done the same exact thing.

Is this:



seriously what many of you want to happen to black teenagers????? Racism is a big thing and profiling has gone too far. That's all I'm trying to say!... I hope you can see that.

If an officer of the law can admit to trying to provoke law abiding citizens for justification of their benefit, then why can't a normal person????? I said it before, I'll say it again... it's ATS slogan! Deny Ignorance! Every black teen killed is not a justified murder.

Sorry for taking it back to Zimmerman, but it's relevant!

1 percent... 1 single percent of those racially profiled people stopped were carrying guns according to a retired officer. Many people in this country believe that you shouldn't even need a permit to carry a gun as it's a right in our constitution. 60 out of 6000 people who MAY have broken a law, but wouldn't be breaking a law according to the way that many of the people that promote racist profiling would argue to their benefit. Is it really worth it?????

How can people here say "yes... profile everyone and call the cops on anything suspicious or investigate ourselves" when we have cops in this video admitting that they're fed up with the profiling? These guys don't go through what they put people through and can't stand it. But you really believe that it's justified? To have a future PhD recipient stopped and punched, frisked and treated like a criminal for wearing a hoody in the rain while walking to the store smoking? Seriously... it's so disturbing to me to hear this.

To be quite clear... I look much like this guy... with dreadlocks and facial hair on a summer day walking to 7-11. Taller yes, but size wise... about the same. Light skinned because my grandmother was raped by the man she worked for. My grandfather stood by her side and raised my father just as his own. This is the history of me... I've told a lot about myself. And I'm worried that white people think of me like I should be treated like this guy. It's crazy to see some of the things I've seen in this thread.

But I do want to say that I'm glad that many have supported my side of the argument and others are willing to listen.

reply to post by SilentKillah

Dear SilentKillah,

I'm largely with you here.

seriously what many of you want to happen to black teenagers????? Racism is a big thing and profiling has gone too far. That's all I'm trying to say!... I hope you can see that.

If an officer of the law can admit to trying to provoke law abiding citizens for justification of their benefit, then why can't a normal person????? I said it before, I'll say it again... it's ATS slogan! Deny Ignorance! Every black teen killed is not a justified murder.

I don't have a lot of problems with what you're saying here. Most black teens killed are not justified. (Most especially, the bullets that miss their intended target and plow into some kid watching TV.)

I'll even accept, subject to someone correcting me, that profiling has gone too far. The question I really want answered is "Why?" If we say it's only racism we're at a (excuse the expression) dead end. Everybody, as some posters have pointed out, has some degree of prejudice. And "Power corrupts ..." If all it is is racism, then we're helpless as far as I can see.

But if we say that prejudice becomes racism due to experience, what experiences are the police having? I suspect that the police have nothing to say about 80 year-old ladies with walkers. They're not a threat and hardly ever do anything wrong.

Isn't there some approach that might reduce the reason for police stopping Black teens, or skin heads, or militia members? I think there is.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by SilentKillah


Scary stuff... Racial profiling occurs a lot less in London these day, but there are remnants of that sort of behaviour in our police 'culture' to this day. That being said, it's nothing like that video. Police officers here are usually prudent enough to avoid antagonising civilians with vulgar language and overt threats of physical violence.

To think relocation was a thought just a couple of years ago...

Originally posted by SilentKillah

Originally posted by frazzle
reply to post by SilentKillah

 

He told me fairly recently of a black woman that he treats who said she will not stop while driving through DC because Fox News sayd it's a bad area. She said she got a flat on I-295 in DC and rode on her flat until she crossed into VA off of I-95 (almost 15 miles) because she'll get robbed if she called a tow truck and waited 15 minutes.

I drove home on a flat tire once in the middle of the night because I didn't have a jack, but to be honest I was more worried about bears attacking me than robbers. A "Bad Area" can mean a lot of different things.

Fear is one thing. Resenting what makes us afraid is another.

Gotcha on that note. However, I'd be more worried about the money I'd have to pay to replace the messed up rim than bears if I sit in the car and wait for a tow truck. But that's just differences in the way people think... not new sources filling your head with nonsense.

Aren't many phones hanging on the trees out there, even today. Rural doesn't describe it. I was just a kid at the time and the bear in the story turned out to be my dad the next morning when I tried to explain why there was no jack in the trunk. Fortunately he was a body man and an avid car collector so a replacement rim was no problem and I didn't get mauled. Sorry for being so off topic.

On topic, even back then I thought news sources were mostly bordering on insane, along with history as it was taught by public school. I'd have gone nuts with the internet, but as it was libraries had to fill in the gaps in the official stories. The how, what, when, why and who that we are has always been out there if one looks. People don't really want to know.

reply to post by charles1952


Deep Charles... man you really went to an entirely different level with you response. Man... I need to think. I can't leave this thread now. Let me think some and hopefully I can come back with intelligence instead of trying to get people to see my side.

reply to post by SilentKillah


So statiscally speaking if blacks commit more crimes than any other racial group, why is it unfair for everyone else to be more weary about blacks than other racial groups? They have earned their bad reputation.

Then I guess we need to go back 250 years to see why whites owe blacks everything? What about the native americans that had their land stolen from them, how come they do not start riots and get involved in gang warfare?

In other words the "I must feel sorry for you" complex eventually wears down.

Catholics have been oppressed as well, yet they behave themselves. Gays have been oppressed, yet they behave themselves. Atheists have been opressed, yet they behave themselves. Do you get it??

reply to post by SilentKillah

Dear SilentKillah,

I have a great deal of respect for you, I offer you only my best.

My goal here is to find a way out of this mess. I want to see better education choices, more jobs at the bottom of the ladder so people can at least get a start and then move up, incentives to keep the family together.

I honestly believe there is a lot we can do, but going on the way we have been will bring more of the same. I really don't want to see Blacks down in a hole anymore.

With respect,
Charles1952

Oh I forgot the biggest taboo of all.......

Don't be a socialist cause you will either never get a job or you will be fired.

Can't say how much flack I have gotten here over the years for being a mild socialist.

But I never go around crying about it. I simply respect everyone has a right to their opinion, and if most americans want capitalism, then so be it. Still I don't vote D or R because both are pathetic liars!

(sorry for off-topic post mods, but racism is not the biggest issue america faces)

reply to post by charles1952


Umm yeah... the problem isn't talking about race, the problem is racists talking about race.

There IS a disparity between race demographics, for instance, but if you don't start the discussion recognizing the centuries of oppression, murder, hate and economic genocide and all the psychology, physiology and sociology involved, then there will be problems.

Some white guy kicking back, opining about the black situation will come across a tad... ignorant... at best.

Originally posted by Baddogma
reply to post by charles1952

 

Umm yeah... the problem isn't talking about race, the problem is racists talking about race.

There IS a disparity between race demographics, for instance, but if you don't start the discussion recognizing the centuries of oppression, murder, hate and economic genocide and all the psychology, physiology and sociology involved, then there will be problems.

Some white guy kicking back, opining about the black situation will come across a tad... ignorant... at best.

Wish I had more stars to give for that post.

reply to post by Baddogma

Dear Baddogma,

I'm known as Mr. Confusion, and I'm earning that title again.

There IS a disparity between race demographics, for instance, but if you don't start the discussion recognizing the centuries of oppression, murder, hate and economic genocide and all the psychology, physiology and sociology involved, then there will be problems.

Two questions. I understand that Blacks have been oppressed, here and elsewhere. What is it you're expecting me to say or feel? Will you believe my words? Do my feelings actually matter? Isn't it more important to look at what we do? If so, what do you want to be done?

How does recognizing all that stuff get us any further down the path to solving today's problems?

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by Baddogma

Umm yeah... the problem isn't talking about race, the problem is racists talking about race.

Here you go!

There IS a disparity between race demographics, for instance, but if you don't start the discussion recognizing the centuries of oppression, murder, hate and economic genocide and all the psychology, physiology and sociology involved, then there will be problems.

Nobody alive today experienced any of this. You don’t get PTSD from stuff your grandfather experienced!

Some white guy kicking back, opining about the black situation will come across a tad... ignorant... at best.

Right! Well, if you feel that way then I certainly don’t know what you expect to accomplish since more than half of the country is white.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To the OP: I can't take anymore, Charles. Great thread as always!

Peace to all! I hope you all find what you're looking for. Whatever it is, I don't have it.

reply to post by seabag

Dear seabag,

Sorry to see you go, but I understand it.

In fact, however, you may have at least one solution that has worked in the past. Is race a problem in the Marines? I didn't think so. You'd need a zillion more drill sergeants, but ship everybody out to Paris Island's equivalent, and Presto, instant non-racial group identification.

It won't happen, of course, but there are ways out of this mess.

With respect,
Charles1952

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by Baddogma

 

Dear Baddogma,

I'm known as Mr. Confusion, and I'm earning that title again.

There IS a disparity between race demographics, for instance, but if you don't start the discussion recognizing the centuries of oppression, murder, hate and economic genocide and all the psychology, physiology and sociology involved, then there will be problems.

Two questions. I understand that Blacks have been oppressed, here and elsewhere. What is it you're expecting me to say or feel? Will you believe my words? Do my feelings actually matter? Isn't it more important to look at what we do? If so, what do you want to be done?

How does recognizing all that stuff get us any further down the path to solving today's problems?

With respect,
Charles1952

Don't you believe knowing something about the past gives one a better grasp on the present so we can overcome whatever went wrong before?

There was a book written about sixty years ago called "Black Like Me" by John Howard Griffin and it should be on everyone's reading list if they haven't read it already.

Overview-
In the Deep South of the 1950s, journalist John Howard Griffin decided to cross the color line. Using medication that darkened his skin to deep brown, he exchanged his privileged life as a Southern white man for the disenfranchised world of an unemployed black man. His audacious, still chillingly relevant eyewitness history is a work about race and humanity-that in this new millennium still has something important to say to every American.

www.barnesandnoble.com...

It’s also a truthful journal in which Griffin admits to his own racism, with which white readers can identify and perhaps begin to face their own denial of prejudice.

www.smithsonianmag.com...

reply to post by charles1952

In fact, however, you may have at least one solution that has worked in the past. Is race a problem in the Marines? I didn't think so.

I actually brought that up in a previous post and I was told by another member that the two biggest racists he'd ever met were former Marines (something to that effect).

It's been fun but my points have have no impact here and the race card is still played regularly in this thread. That is the nature of the beast with this topic. Race is a big business for many....and for many others, playing the victim is second nature now. There is no end in sight I'm afraid.

Time for me to move along, friend. Best of luck!

reply to post by frazzle

Dear frazzle,

Thank you for your serious attempt. I may have misunderstood you, but I'm not sure my questions were addressed.

Don't you believe knowing something about the past gives one a better grasp on the present so we can overcome whatever went wrong before?

Knowing the past about anything gives us a better understanding. Overcoming what went wrong before? I'm confused. If you mean not making the same mistake twice, then I agree. It is useful. But putting things were they would be if the horror hadn't happened? Often not possible. What do we do with the millions (I think it's 6 million) Ukrainians who were killed in Stalin's Holodomor? Would you explain what you meant, because I'm not clear on it.

I think everybody had to read that book in school, certainly I did. Only some lessons can be taken from it as society is very different from the 1950s.

So, you've seen lots of posters on this thread saying their prejudiced, what more do you want?

With respect,
Charles1952