Korean Airlines 007 revisited

Oberg,

You are the one confusing the issue. Though a careful reading of your reply reveals that you actually confirm the presence of the ferret satellite and the space shuttle in the area over the shootdown. The Challenger might not have been in a line of sight, but it was certainly able to pick up electronic intercepts via retransmissions by other comm satellites.

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San Francisco attorney Melvin Belli flew to Seoul and interviewed the widows of the pilot and co-pilot.
"They told me that the captain and the co-pilot were paid to intentionally take this shortcut over Russian territory. ...The widows said that KAL paid its pilots special bonuses for flying over Russian territory. The widows, furthermore, stated that the pilots had become so afraid of these flights that they wanted to discontinue them." According to another attorney, Captain Chun Byung-in had told his wife that he was departing on an 'especially dangerous mission' and that he 'might not return.'

reply to post by starviego


Marvin Belli claims that Korea paid "under the table bonuses" to pilots that flew over the Soviet Union to save on fuel costs, but then turns around and names Boeing and Litton in his lawsuit for building and installing faulty navigation equipment. So which is it? Did they deliberately fly over Russian territory to save fuel, or did they not know where they were because of faulty navigation equipment? If they KNEW they were over Soviet territory, then the navigation equipment wasn't faulty, therefore Boeing and Litton couldn't be sued for faulty equipment. If they didn't know where they were, then how did they expect to get their bonus, or the bonus story was bogus, therefore Korean couldn't be sued for it.

Either way, out of all the people that interviewed the wives of the crew, the only person they said a word to was one attorney? That strikes me as a bit odd.

Two essential witnesses that were never allowed to be interviewed were the pilot and co-pilot of KAL 015, another B747 flying in tandem with 007 on another air route further east. Maybe they knew too much.

Originally posted by starviego
Oberg, You are the one confusing the issue. Though a careful reading of your reply reveals that you actually confirm the presence of the ferret satellite and the space shuttle in the area over the shootdown. The Challenger might not have been in a line of sight, but it was certainly able to pick up electronic intercepts via retransmissions by other comm satellites.

I don't see how. The satellite named wasn't even a ferret, it was a weather satellite, and it passes over everywhere along its orbit several times a day.

If the 'intercepts' were being relayed by other satellites, than what possible special purpose would the shuttle have performed? Please, suggest something. The signals could have bypassed it entirely. And what evidence is there that ANY satellite-relay gear was on the airliner. ANY evidence at ALL?

Originally posted by starviego
Two essential witnesses that were never allowed to be interviewed were the pilot and co-pilot of KAL 015, another B747 flying in tandem with 007 on another air route further east. Maybe they knew too much.

What would they have known that wasn't on the 007 cockpit voice recorder?

Originally posted by JimOberg The satellite named wasn't even a ferret, it was a weather satellite.

The article cited as your source does not prove that. It merely suggests that.

Originally posted by JimOberg If the 'intercepts' were being relayed by other satellites, than what possible special purpose would the shuttle have performed? Please, suggest something. The signals could have bypassed it entirely. And what evidence is there that ANY satellite-relay gear was on the airliner. ANY evidence at ALL?

I don't have all the answers, Jim. Maybe the shuttle held a special antenna or transmitter that would have aided in keeping track of the incident in real time. Or you can believe the official version that the cargo was a 4 ton barbell.

Originally posted by JimObergWhat would they(the crew of KAL 015) have known that wasn't on the 007 cockpit voice recorder?

You'd have to ask them, not me.

starviego
You'd have to ask them, not me.

Absolutely nothing, unless they were able to pass notes between the two planes. Anything said in the cockpit of 007 was on that recorder.

Though it is somewhat outdated, here is a good mini-documentary of this incident:

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

Originally posted by starviego

Originally posted by JimOberg The satellite named wasn't even a ferret, it was a weather satellite.

The article cited as your source does not prove that. It merely suggests that.

There's plewnty more evidence it was NOT an Elint bird, than there has been shown any evidence it WAS -- except for official Moscow claims. So you choose to trust Soviet propaganda assertions over the judgments of civilian Western scholars who tracked and studied these programs, and have a track record of accuracy going across decades?

And as I wrote quite clearly, during the hours-long KAL flight, every satellite in polar orbit crossed its flight path. EVERY one. So what's exceptional about any one particular one, doing that?

Originally posted by JimOberg If the 'intercepts' were being relayed by other satellites, than what possible special purpose would the shuttle have performed? Please, suggest something. The signals could have bypassed it entirely. And what evidence is there that ANY satellite-relay gear was on the airliner. ANY evidence at ALL?

I don't have all the answers, Jim. Maybe the shuttle held a special antenna or transmitter that would have aided in keeping track of the incident in real time. Or you can believe the official version that the cargo was a 4 ton barbell.

And on what basis would you believe otherwise, for a payload that had been disclosed and described a year earlier, was widely photographed during fabrication, installation, launch, and on-orbit deployment? And in storage afterwards? Would you suggest the 'spy mission' was planned that far in advance?

Besides, I cheated. I actually lived in the real world, and worked at Mission Control during those flights. So yes, I trust the 'official' description of the PFTA test payload.

Good thread OP!

Perhaps some of you are after something. I dont know.

I believe in more "mundane" explanation.

1983 was a hell of a year in terms of Cold War.
IIRC, it was on that year that Reagan made that famous speech defining USSR as the Evil Empire and started talking about SDI.

Yuri Andropov (the ex-KGB chief) rose to power in that Summer and he was really nervous. He was a "hawk" in political terminology and was decided to confront the West.

Andropov was strongly suspicious that the West could launch an preemptive nuclear first-strike. Remember that GLCM´s and Pershing 2 were starting to be based in Europe, and the Israeli supreme air victory over Lebanon (Summer 1982) showed that teen-generation of american fighters (F-15 and F-16) were capable of decimating a larger number of Mig-21 and Mig-23 (mainly and Syrian AF).
He even asked KGB to learn if british hospital were aumenting their reserve supplies of blood for the event of a war.
To make things worse NATO made an exercise to test its nuclear readiness that prompted the soviets to the conclusion that a NATO nuke strike was iminent (Able Archer - November 1983).

So, as soon as he had a chance it made a demonstration of will and force (even if it was a civil aircraft), he made clear that no aircraft would fly unscatted over the Kremlin.

Also, the F-117 attained IOC(1983) and that coupled with "unregistered flights" of SR-71 (and perhaps Tacit Blue very near to Siberia) made him become a bit "jumpy".

At the time of the KAL007 incident Andropov was new in office and wanted to show its credentials to the West.

Just my thoughts.

Originally posted by meaningless333
....
So, as soon as he had a chance it made a demonstration of will and force (even if it was a civil aircraft), he made clear that no aircraft would fly unscatted over the Kremlin.

I agree that clearly was the attitude of the air defense forces.

In my own view that attitude had more localized motives. In April 1983 a US Navy carrier task force maneuvered near the Soviet Kurile Islands. I have been told that Soviet complaints of direct overflights of some of their air bases are legit -- hotdogging US pilots 'burned' the Soviets deliberately, and afterwards top officers were sacked. Their successors were understandably determined NOT to allow the next intruders to escape.

All my attempts to get official Pentagon logs of those intrusions have been rebuffed. It remains the biggest 'open question' in the run-up to this catastrophe.

reply to post by JimOberg


There was also the fact that Korean Airlines flight 802 had previously crash landed in Siberia, and commanders didn't even know it was in their airspace until it was pretty deep into their territory. They picked it up 250 miles from their waters, and assumed it was one of theirs that missed an IFF switch, and didn't intercept it until it passed over the Kola Peninsula. That was a huge embarrassment to the commanders at the time.

Originally posted by JimOberg So you choose to trust Soviet propaganda assertions over the judgments of civilian Western scholars...

Propagandists versus scholars, huh? Oh no, no propaganda in that....

Originally posted by JimOberg .... during the hours-long KAL flight, every satellite in polar orbit crossed its flight path. EVERY one. So what's exceptional about any one particular one, doing that?

What's exceptional about that one? That was the one passing overhead when it happened.

Originally posted by JimOberg...a payload that had been disclosed and described a year earlier, was widely photographed during fabrication, installation, launch, and on-orbit deployment?

Link?

Originally posted by JimObergI actually lived in the real world, and worked at Mission Control during those flights.

Feeling a twinge of guilt, no doubt.

Yep, Macdonald was a great American voice....the values other cultures and our boys in control have are so mis-guided....aircraft accidents are their answer to global goals.
I dropped out of the frontlines for this very reason....nearly got killed at 1 am back in the Branniff days at DFW regional....
Don't be surprised at the mechanics of how this world works in the upper levels 007 probably had 90% survive....but in shallow cold water. 747 back-up systems and redundancy wins....alot of airframe to affect with a missile, huh!!

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Originally posted by neformore
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