Transgender man in women's mma? Thoughts please.

Originally posted by DeadSnow
The world has officially gone MAD!, she's a he, a man, he belongs in mens MMA. Transgendered individuals should not be allowed to participate in sports, period!

Suppose there is an issue here in that intersex people exist, but common misconception is that they are male by default if they are talented.

Indian athlete intersex Santhi Soundarajan was stripped of her Olympic accomplishments and later attempted to commit suicide. Intersex atheletes like Santhi were later allowed to compete.

To give an idea:

Nothing in these Regulations is intended to make any determination of sex. Instead, these Regulations are designed to identify circumstances in which a particular athlete will not be eligible (by reason of hormonal characteristics) to participate in 2012 OG Competitions in the female category.

Source: 2012-06-22-IOC-Regulations-on-Female-Hyperandrogenism-eng

This isn't because of liberal pressure, it's because this naturally occurs sometimes.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by DeadSnow

 

Nobody, and a I mean NOBODY, is EVER going to get a gender re-assignment for an easy win. Just google what somebody has to do to get that done and you'll see that's pretty much impossible.

Unfortunately, this has already occurred multiple times depending how you look at it.

Its been an issue since the 1930s. Many countries actively saught out intersexed persons or engineered their own. A number of athletes have had side effects from half finished sex changes which were imposed during their time representing a country. There have been some tragic cases of some women actually becoming men after their Olympic careers since it was 'cheaper' than going back.

Heidi Krieger comes to mind, but there are athletes from other countries also. Any type of hormone therapy such as this is, in many ways, a sex change.

Originally posted by knowledgedesired
I personally can't wait to see shim get a fight with someone like cyborg or equivelant so we can see a girl kick a man's A$$. I saw shim fight a few times and it is only a matter of time before someone hands shim her butt.

Cyborg is actually a good example of the above.

As a person, she is likely not far off the gender scale from Fallon except, if Fallon isn't on steroids, Cyborg will be significantly stronger. Cyborg has fought men already I believe.

Originally posted by AshleyD
And general transgender is simply identifying as another sex- it doesn't even necessarily require one to undergo any physical changes. So that is an obvious unfair disadvantage in competition.

Transgender is really a general term, and it's often misused by the American media.

In sports, trans persons do have to under go physical changes to be accepted in competitions as their presenting gender.

Originally posted by SourGrapes
If athletes aren't allowed to take steroids, how is taking hormones any different? Perhaps, MMA should have a 'transgender' league.

The cut off point is the issue I suppose, plus is a little upsetting for a competent woman athlete to have a dark cloud over her intersex or not.

I don't think MMA will ever have inter-gender competition though.

At what point is man and woman different, if not for the chromosome difference? So, we are to ignore the natural law of human anatomy, all the way down to the competitive sports level?

Majority of natural law is a model imposed on nature by humans. Nature doesn't care if a person is purely male or female really. It just does things. I guess it's why the cut off point is really hard to design.

I mean, if someone feels like they are thin, why shouldn't they fight in a lighter weight group? Isn't it basically the same area of logic?

I understand the argument, but it's two fundamentally different things.

A fat person who under goes a rigorous running schedule to have their feelings match their physical reality is actually thin in the same way a sex change is dramatically physically altering.

I suppose the question I ask is ... (when) does Cyborg become a man, and (when) does Fallon become a woman?

Is a curious thought.

reply to post by Astrocyte

For future notice. Personal experience does not always correlate with objective fact. If I happen to have a "good experience" with a tiger in a cage - in that the tiger didn't attack me - it would be idiotic for me to infer from that experience that it is safe to walk around tigers.

Did I say it did? I was clear in both posts it was one dudes take on things due to one dudes personal experience. Shocking that anyone would take anything more from my wording...

It wasn't one time in a cage with a tiger.

This is about 10 years of annual tournaments and all the co-ed cross training in between.

I'd say I have a good amount of exposure combating against women!

You may have had experiences with female MMA fighters that led you to say

As I said. Not MMA. Escrima/Kali/Arnis. We fight with weapons. We wear somewhat protective gear.

Not the same. Which I said already.

perhaps hyperbolically - that girls are good fighters.

Some are. That has been my experience.

Ah; organised sports. What a great big festering waste of time and money for the general public.

And this is the kind of crap the meatheads argue about.

Anyways, the girl is 145 lbs -- I hardly think that's a very huge advantage. I'm 150 lbs and male myself and I have chicken legs, ramen fingers, and wrists the width of a tube of toothpaste. Any of those women in the MMA would lay me out before I even had a chance to beg for mercy and I work out for 1 - 1 1/2 hours every single day and have a very high protein intake.

This kind of thing should be looked at on a case-to-case basis. It's really not so black & white. Also, I think the whole "OMG HE'S A MAN HITTING A WOMAN! HORRIBLE!" Mentality that Joe Rogan seems to display with such machismo is incredibly shallow and really rather adolescent.

reply to post by tothetenthpower


That is not what he said. He said that they should not be allowed based on who they pretend to be.

There is a major difference between someone being gay (science says that they are born that way),and changing your sex. If you are a woman you can be born gay, but you cant be born a man. Or visa-versa. Your argument is irrational> Please think before you type.

To the op He should not be allowed to fight in women's M.M.A. that is not an opinion that is logic.

If someone loaded with testosterone is fighting women, no, it's not fair.

reply to post by suz62


Well she probably went through hormonal replacement therapy. I'm not knowledgeable on this matter but if the concern is purely about testosterone levels it should be more in line with her gender identity.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by suz62

 

Well she probably went through hormonal replacement therapy. I'm not knowledgeable on this matter but if the concern is purely about testosterone levels it should be more in line with her gender identity.

edit on 3-7-2013 by Lucid Lunacy because: (no reason given)

It's not. I already posted pure science as to why reducing test levels will never remove advantages gained from being a man for 30 years. People on this post tend to prefer opinions over facts.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04


I wasn't stating my opinion as fact. Should have been clear in my post since I stated I wasn't knowledgeable in this area. I was going by that wiki link is all. So are you saying the hormone therapy is not bringing the hormonal levels to that of female gender? That's all my post was in reference to since that's the sole subject of the post I replied to.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy

I think Razor is referring to larger bone frames supporting more muscle mass, women's body shape possibly increasing chances of instability at the knees, male body types having stronger bone density ...

Whilst hormonal changes do alter the future of all these elements, a trans person who starts therapy at say 13 - 16 is going to be quite different from a 20 - 30 year old person under going the same therapy. Fallon will have some form of advantage in this area. The 'gap' between gender transition and sports performance is meant to mitigate this some.

The idea of a man brutalizing a woman for entertainment or sport or profit is sickening. The case of this trans woman seems like a soft glorification of the misogynistic tendencies prevalent in our world today. This is seriously in the gray area...this woman who was once a man wants to hurt other women.......but call it sporting...

I always wonder why these stories start out talking about a he and then suddenly the same person is referred to as a she. Nobody ever bothers to give details?

Was this person born with both a penis and vagina? Or did he trade his penis for a vagina? So there was a sex change operation?

Then suddenly the person who was a man but now has female parts is a coach at the elementary school and changes in the woman's locker room and invites school children to go on field trips for extra credit.

We have become to politically correct and that's the killer of all things that are good and promote life.

Of we don't draw a line somewhere then we should just accept our fate and join the useless bottom feeders that prey on the innocent and helpless.

Originally posted by Pinke
reply to post by Lucid Lunacy

 

I think Razor is referring to larger bone frames supporting more muscle mass, women's body shape possibly increasing chances of instability at the knees, male body types having stronger bone density ...

Whilst hormonal changes do alter the future of all these elements, a trans person who starts therapy at say 13 - 16 is going to be quite different from a 20 - 30 year old person under going the same therapy. Fallon will have some form of advantage in this area. The 'gap' between gender transition and sports performance is meant to mitigate this some.

Exactly. At 30 the body is developed. Altering testosterone levels will not alter things such as bone structure, ever, and some of the changes in the bones that give men an advantage can take 15 years after therapy begins to show any changes. If they started at 10, this wouldn't be the same kind of issue. At 30, the playing field can never be leveled. It's a man with low testosterone fighting a woman.

Another key factor in fighting is weight. I noticed someone say Fallon is 145. Dead wrong. Fallon fights at 145. The weigh in is done the day before the fight and the fighters dehydrate themselves, and rehydrate after weigh in, which means come fight night Fallon weighs probably 170'ish. It's far more difficult for women to drop weight than men, so even fighting at the same weight class, Fallon will be bigger than the competition. Anthony Rumble Johnson's last fight he weighed 235 and fought at heavyweight. Previously he would cut down for Welterweight (170lbs). That is how drastic some men are able to cut weight.

Originally posted by balanc3
The idea of a man brutalizing a woman for entertainment or sport or profit is sickening. The case of this trans woman seems like a soft glorification of the misogynistic tendencies prevalent in our world today. This is seriously in the gray area...this woman who was once a man wants to hurt other women.......but call it sporting...

I personally think that the idea of a man brutalizing another man for sport is equally as barbaric. Remind me of high school; bunch of tards circling around a fight by the flagpole -- pretty ridiculous that grown people enjoy this stuff.

It's hard to add any sympathies based on gender, especially considering she is, indeed, a woman now. If she has a higher bone density because she used to be a man and a higher muscle mass then I can't understand how in the hell she is only 145 lbs.

Originally posted by LightOrange

Originally posted by balanc3
The idea of a man brutalizing a woman for entertainment or sport or profit is sickening. The case of this trans woman seems like a soft glorification of the misogynistic tendencies prevalent in our world today. This is seriously in the gray area...this woman who was once a man wants to hurt other women.......but call it sporting...

I personally think that the idea of a man brutalizing another man for sport is equally as barbaric. Remind me of high school; bunch of tards circling around a fight by the flagpole -- pretty ridiculous that grown people enjoy this stuff.

It's hard to add any sympathies based on gender, especially considering she is, indeed, a woman now. If she has a higher bone density because she used to be a man and a higher muscle mass then I can't understand how in the hell she is only 145 lbs.

You obviously did not read my post and are posting out of ignorance. Fallon does not weigh 145. Although just so you know they have 135, 125, and 115 male weight classes. Manny Pacquiao fought at 144, you think he's not a man? Floyd Mayweather is 146, is he a woman?

MMA is not about 2 men brutalizing each other, you are completely ignorant of the sport and topic at hand.

Originally posted by LightOrange

Originally posted by balanc3
The idea of a man brutalizing a woman for entertainment or sport or profit is sickening. The case of this trans woman seems like a soft glorification of the misogynistic tendencies prevalent in our world today. This is seriously in the gray area...this woman who was once a man wants to hurt other women.......but call it sporting...

I personally think that the idea of a man brutalizing another man for sport is equally as barbaric. Remind me of high school; bunch of tards circling around a fight by the flagpole -- pretty ridiculous that grown people enjoy this stuff.

It's not men brutalising one another when the participants are highly trained in both attack and defensive techniques, it's chess with a bit more to lose than a piece being removed off the board. Some people like chess, some people like something that involves both the body and the mind.

reply to post by IvanAstikov


Chess is definitely a good analogy. It's two men putting themselves to the test to see who is better. As chess alludes, a large part of the game is mental and strategic and not physical.

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04
reply to post by IvanAstikov

 

Chess is definitely a good analogy. It's two men putting themselves to the test to see who is better.

In the words of Reg from The Life of Brian, "Or women!" Or transgendered inbetweens.

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04
As chess alludes, a large part of the game is mental and strategic and not physical.

I think tennis also illustrates well how important the mental game is. Tennis is like mma for those who don't like getting hit, although a serve off one of the big hitters could hurt more than a good punch if it was aimed at the other player. Personally, I'd like to see that competition.

Originally posted by BASSPLYR
reply to post by DeadSnow

 

Woopty doo. Some people here are were "fighters". That means jack in the real world. Like I said mma is mma it's a sport. In the real world things are different and often counter intuitive. There are plenty of women who are not " fighters" and can kick many a guys ass in a combative altercation sometimes even mma guys. Being great at mma is just that being great at mma. It doesn't correlate as much as you think outside the ring.

What are we debating? the indy 500?... Facepalm yourself.

We're discussing MMA to begin with and as a fighter or someone that has taken their interest beyond spending a few hours staring into a TV screen and cheering, I think our opinions should be taken more seriously.

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04
reply to post by IvanAstikov

 

Chess is definitely a good analogy. It's two men putting themselves to the test to see who is better. As chess alludes, a large part of the game is mental and strategic and not physical.

Well if it's more mental and strategical then why are there gender divides at all?

Originally posted by DeadSnow

Originally posted by BASSPLYR
reply to post by DeadSnow

 

Woopty doo. Some people here are were "fighters". That means jack in the real world. Like I said mma is mma it's a sport. In the real world things are different and often counter intuitive. There are plenty of women who are not " fighters" and can kick many a guys ass in a combative altercation sometimes even mma guys. Being great at mma is just that being great at mma. It doesn't correlate as much as you think outside the ring.

What are we debating? the indy 500?...

Facepalm yourself.

We're discussing MMA to begin with and as a fighter or someone that has taken their interest beyond spending a few hours staring into a TV screen and cheering, I think our opinions should be taken more seriously.

Or less seriously.

Brain damage is a pretty real occurance in these kinds of sports.