Ron Paul on Edward Snowden’s indictment

reply to post by flyswatter

No country "allows" the clandestine gathering of sensitive information by other countries.

thank you for admitting that snowden has not leaked anything that was a legal action, or classifed for legally justified reasons.

The Constitution does not apply to everyone on the planet, sir.

but what FISA decides does? you're arguing that the constitution doesn't apply to everyone on the planet, but a ruling from a court established under the provisions of the constitution has authority over everyone?

Your land of glitter and unicorns is a fantasy.

oh yes, far be it from me to expect governments and their agencies to follow the law. just because they violate the law does not excuse their violation.

Originally posted by flyswatter
This speaks nothing about the activities going on within the US, but the intelligence community has explicit permission to conduct these operations overseas by way of FISA. The 4th amendment means exactly *NOTHING* in regards to these activities. The fact that it might be illegal in another country is irrelevant, as we dont base our activities on their laws, we base it on ours. If we were to do things as you suggest, there would never be another classified document related to spying because it is illegal in ... well, pretty much every country, I'm sure ... and that information could not be classified because of that.

Not. Going. To. Happen. We dont live in a broom closet where we have to ask "Mother, May I" for everything. This is a real world with a lot of real problems, both here and overseas. Countries spy on each other. Been happening since long before you or I were a twinkle in our parents eyes.

this is great, and i agree....FISA is for overseas intel operations....

the problem is with NSA spying on all of us....THAT is what is causing all the hubb-bubb...THAT is the bit that is unconstitutional, criminal, and should have the american people enraged to the point of revolution...but they're not, because they don't have anything to hide, and they still believe osama is hiding under their bed, or in their kitchen cupboard, and is ready to kill them with an IED strapped to his nuts...it's all bulls**t...

let's just face it: america has lost it's way, the majority of it's people are uninformed, misinformed, borderline braindead, and the whole country is going to hell, because too many of it's people are too lazy, and too stupid to do anything about it..

Originally posted by Daedalus

Originally posted by Variable
reply to post by Bob Sholtz

 

violating the 4th amendment.

Your argument is simply based on opinion. We all have opinions right? They are like a certain nether region.

The Fourth Amendment (Amendment IV) to the United States Constitution is the part of the Bill of Rights which guards against unreasonable searches and seizures, along with requiring any warrant to be judicially sanctioned and supported by probable cause.

4th amendment

So if a FISA court allowed the action it is legal under law right?.
FISA

Therefore, your argument is wholly invalid. Now, you could argue that the FISA court is invalid but that is a tough road to hoe. Your opinion is simply that, an opinion. Until a court agrees with you you have no basis in law. If, and when, a court agrees with you I will back you whole hardheartedly.

V

edit on 6/27/2013 by Variable because: they are.

you're kidding, right?

the FISA court has no jurisdiction with regards to actions conducted inside the united states.

they are the FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE SURVEILLANCE COURT...

the surveillance they are conducting IS tantamount to a search.....it is a warrantless search....interception of emails, texts, telephonic communications, in addition to receiving delivery of obscene amounts data on private citizens from companies EVERYONE uses, who are supposed to be protecting our information and privacy, not giving it away to the federal government, so it can be cataloged, and possible used against us later..

you really don't get how any of this works, do you?

Settle down, bucko. He was actually responding to another post that was wrongly applying 4th amendment rights to other countries. He's aware that FISA applies to out of country, not in country. Its the guy he was responding to that was in the wrong in still calling it illegal, regardless of where it happened.

Originally posted by TheCrimsonGhost

Originally posted by maddy21
So what if he broke the law ? He did what was right ... the law be damned ..

Can we discuss something constructive here.... and not debate on if Snowden broke the law or not which is completely useless anyway ...

edit on 28-6-2013 by maddy21 because: (no reason given)

I agree, since its absolutely 100% fact he broke the law, there is nothing more to debate on the matter. He also is guilty of treason, no more debate needed there either... so what do you suggest we discuss now that we got the facts out of the way?

where is your requisite documentation, to substantiate your claims?

Originally posted by Adaluncatif

Originally posted by HauntWok
A gun does not protect you from a plane crashing into your building.

A gun cannot protect you from a bomb in a car.

A gun cannot protect you from an IED

Terrorists don't go around announcing they are terrorists.

And pro 2nd Amendment people only see the use of their 2nd Amendment rights to kill their fellow countrymen anyway. Feeling their enemy are Constitutionally elected citizens, and feeling that by killing them, and robbing the public of their Constitutional right to choose the government representatives they want, they are somehow protecting freedom.

What does this have to do with Snowden? There are greater threats than a plane crashing into buildings, or an IED, or a supposed terrorist. The US government is a greater threat than all of these. In its present form the US government is a threat to national security, especially the CIA and NSA, followed by the Pentagon. Who are pro 2nd amendment people? I should think that everybody who supports the constitution is pro 2nd amendment. Do you want to repeal it? If you support NSA spying you obviously want to repeal other constitutionally protected freedoms including the right to privacy. Are you a right wing corporatist who wants to repeal the amendment that abolished slavery because that is what the corporations ultimately want to happen. That is why they build plants in China; child slave labor. Judging by your post, you have been successfully brainwashed. I will give you some facts. There never was a threat from planes crashing into buildings on 911. Before PRISM which is in the news now for spying on EVERYONE, ECHELON was in place. This program spied on everyone. The NSA has been spying on everyone since the 1970s. All the communications of the terrorists who carried out 911 were intercepted and recorded. The NSA knew that 911 was going to happen. It is impossible for them not to. This means that it was allowed to happen. Any successful terrorist attack is allowed to happen including the recent Boston bombing. When they want to look good at stopping terrorists they stop it right before it happens. The War on Terror is an illusion. It got the Patriot Act passed. It provides for a whole new department, the Department of Homeland Security. It provides for even more Orwellian tactics. They want cameras in your cable box now to "watch your reaction to advertisements". The new HD TVs already have cameras in them for user face recognition. There are cameras in your computer and smart phones. It is EASY to access all these cameras. Now we have A LOT of drones flying over US cities. Now they are developing insect sized drones. They are also deploying spaced based weapons. No foreign country poses a threat to the US. Iraq didn't. Afghanistan didn't. Libya didn't. Syria, Iran, and North Korea do not pose a threat. China and Russia can actually defend themselves. If they could not we would be told, "We must go to war with China and Russia right now!" The ultimate goal of the real power behind the US government is the conquest of Planet Earth. Every country must submit to US rule. Genghis Khan tried the same thing and failed. Napolean tried and failed. Hitler tried and failed. The US is trying and will fail.

Epic Text Block.

TL;DR

I believe his point is that he's attempting to justify the NSA's completely illegal surveillance of the american people, as being necessary "to stop the terrorists"...because, you know, we're all "terrorists" now..

Originally posted by flyswatter
Settle down, bucko. He was actually responding to another post that was wrongly applying 4th amendment rights to other countries. He's aware that FISA applies to out of country, not in country. Its the guy he was responding to that was in the wrong in still calling it illegal, regardless of where it happened.

i'm not a "bucko"....you're a "bucko", "bucko"

i admit, their bickering was getting rather old, so i skipped a few posts....but from what i could gather, it looked as if he was trying to say that PRISM is ok because FISC (FISA Court) said it is

Originally posted by Bob Sholtz
reply to post by flyswatter

 

No country "allows" the clandestine gathering of sensitive information by other countries.

thank you for admitting that snowden has not leaked anything that was a legal action, or classifed for legally justified reasons.

The Constitution does not apply to everyone on the planet, sir.

but what FISA decides does? you're arguing that the constitution doesn't apply to everyone on the planet, but a ruling from a court established under the provisions of the constitution has authority over everyone?

Your land of glitter and unicorns is a fantasy.

oh yes, far be it from me to expect governments and their agencies to follow the law. just because they violate the law does not excuse their violation.

First, no, the Constitution does not apply to everyone on the planet. I did not stutter in saying that. Second, FISA is not a ruling from a court. Part of the law is that it established its own court for the purposes of approving or denying the warrants for these actions. It is a law that was established originally in 1978. That law applies to the United States government in regards to their actions overseas, giving them the right to conduct various types of intelligence gathering operations overseas.

And you mention the government following their own law. You're right, they should. And when the NSA performs intelligence gathering operations overseas, they are following a law that explicitly grants them the right to do so. I'm sorry you dont agree with the fact that they can do it, but they can, and they do. Again, if you dont agree with it, feel free to start a movement to repeal the law. Until that happens, you will continue to be wrong. But dont just take my word for it. You're free to confirm this with lawyers familiar with the law and its applications. I'll wait patiently for you to do so.

Originally posted by Daedalus

Originally posted by flyswatter
Settle down, bucko. He was actually responding to another post that was wrongly applying 4th amendment rights to other countries. He's aware that FISA applies to out of country, not in country. Its the guy he was responding to that was in the wrong in still calling it illegal, regardless of where it happened.

i'm not a "bucko"....you're a "bucko", "bucko"

i admit, their bickering was getting rather old, so i skipped a few posts....but from what i could gather, it looked as if he was trying to say that PRISM is ok because FISC (FISA Court) said it is

It would be foolish for anyone to think that FISA applied across the board in the US. As far as I am aware, the only legal application of FISA within US borders is when applications are made for warrants to gather vs. suspected foreign agents inside of the US. This is something that could be easily abused, and should probably require quite a bit of oversight.

Originally posted by TheCrimsonGhost

Originally posted by maddy21
So what if he broke the law ? He did what was right ... the law be damned ..

Can we discuss something constructive here.... and not debate on if Snowden broke the law or not which is completely useless anyway ...

edit on 28-6-2013 by maddy21 because: (no reason given)

I agree, since its absolutely 100% fact he broke the law, there is nothing more to debate on the matter. He also is guilty of treason, no more debate needed there either... so what do you suggest we discuss now that we got the facts out of the way?

He broke a contract which was invalid anyway because it violated the fourth amendment!

FISA has no jurisdiction with domestic surveillance so their rulling is immatterial.

We get it you support tyranny. Thanks for making it clear.

When can ED come back to america to receive his medal of honor?

Originally posted by Daedalus

Originally posted by TheCrimsonGhost

Originally posted by maddy21
So what if he broke the law ? He did what was right ... the law be damned ..

Can we discuss something constructive here.... and not debate on if Snowden broke the law or not which is completely useless anyway ...

edit on 28-6-2013 by maddy21 because: (no reason given)

I agree, since its absolutely 100% fact he broke the law, there is nothing more to debate on the matter. He also is guilty of treason, no more debate needed there either... so what do you suggest we discuss now that we got the facts out of the way?

where is your requisite documentation, to substantiate your claims?

I don't think he has any. He just parrots what fox news tells him to.

reply to post by Daedalus

the FISA court has no jurisdiction with regards to actions conducted inside the united states.

This is simply stupid. Why would a US court need to rule on anything that doesn't have to do with the United States...? What they are doing is trying to correlate calls from outside the US to inside the US. They are trying to see what number in Pakistan of some known person, on some watch list, called in the US, and who that number called for instance. This is basic intelligence. Connecting dots. If the dumb asses in the FBI and NSA had been doing this in 2000 and paid attention, they may have stopped 911.

What do you think our intelligence community does? Why do they exist? Most Americans hope these people are paying attention. THAT IS WHAT WE PAY THEM FOR!

Of course they can go to far, I would never be one to argue that point. If they do, we need to reign them in.

V

Originally posted by Daedalus

this is great, and i agree....FISA is for overseas intel operations....

the problem is with NSA spying on all of us....THAT is what is causing all the hubb-bubb...THAT is the bit that is unconstitutional, criminal, and should have the american people enraged to the point of revolution...but they're not, because they don't have anything to hide, and they still believe osama is hiding under their bed, or in their kitchen cupboard, and is ready to kill them with an IED strapped to his nuts...it's all bulls**t...

let's just face it: america has lost it's way, the majority of it's people are uninformed, misinformed, borderline braindead, and the whole country is going to hell, because too many of it's people are too lazy, and too stupid to do anything about it..

edit on 28-6-2013 by Daedalus because: missing words

When there are more disinfo agents spreading lies on this "alternative site" than people who respect the law with ethics and morals then YES there is something wrong with this country and probably this site as well.

Millions of americans either completly braindead or completly apathetic. No one willing to challenge anything.

reply to post by Daedalus

I believe his point is that he's attempting to justify the NSA's completely illegal surveillance of the american people, as being necessary "to stop the terrorists"...because, you know, we're all "terrorists" now..

There is nothing illegal going on. In fact, it is totally legal. That is why it happens. Your opinion is just that, an opinion. Saying it over and over doesn't do anything. Bring a suit, call the ACLU, call your Congressmen, just because you don't understand the legal system doesn't mean your point is valid.

Were is the ground swell of support? No where. The internet is not reality.


V

Originally posted by Variable
reply to post by Daedalus

 

the FISA court has no jurisdiction with regards to actions conducted inside the united states.

This is simply stupid. Why would a US court need to rule on anything that doesn't have to do with the United States...? What they are doing is trying to correlate calls from outside the US to inside the US. They are trying to see what number in Pakistan of some known person, on some watch list, called in the US, and who that number called for instance. This is basic intelligence. Connecting dots. If the dumb asses in the FBI and NSA had been doing this in 2000 and paid attention, they may have stopped 911.

What do you think our intelligence community does? Why do they exist? Most Americans hope these people are paying attention. THAT IS WHAT WE PAY THEM FOR!

Of course they can go to far, I would never be one to argue that point. If they do, we need to reign them in.

V

edit on 6/28/2013 by Variable because: grammar

And you have been here since 2004. Have you been paying attention to anything? Nearly everywhere you look there is a conspiracy somewhere. I don't feel like listing stuff cause it gets boring and you probably don't even care.

Who is going to reign in whom? Eric Holder is one of the most corrupt people to be attorney general, nevermind obama and hillary. Look at what is going on in the middle east with usa giving weapons to terrorists to overthrow legitimate governments.

reply to post by EarthCitizen07


As soon as he's dead and in a casket for sharing classified information with the Chinese and Russians, which is in fact treason.

Originally posted by TheCrimsonGhost
reply to post by EarthCitizen07

 

As soon as he's dead and in a casket for sharing classified information with the Chinese and Russians, which is in fact treason.

Are you making threats?

That is against the terms and conditions of the site. Its also murder unless tried first and convicted of a crime worthy of execution.

You are the one that apparently supports tyranny.

reply to post by flyswatter

First, no, the Constitution does not apply to everyone on the planet. I did not stutter in saying that. Second, FISA is not a ruling from a court. Part of the law is that it established its own court for the purposes of approving or denying the warrants for these actions.

you aren't addressing the issue. you said "the constitution does not apply to everyone on the planet", but the bill of rights applies to non-citizens. the requirements to gain a search warrant don't change.

That law applies to the United States government in regards to their actions overseas, giving them the right to conduct various types of intelligence gathering operations overseas.

statutory laws cannot establish rights. congress cannot legislate any more powers to the federal government, a constitutional amendment would be necessary.

And when the NSA performs intelligence gathering operations overseas, they are following a law that explicitly grants them the right to do so.

see above.

I'm sorry you dont agree with the fact that they can do it, but they can, and they do.

they can, and they do, and they can do it, however it remains a violation of the 4th amendment.

reply to post by Variable

There is nothing illegal going on. In fact, it is totally legal. That is why it happens. Your opinion is just that, an opinion. Saying it over and over doesn't do anything. Bring a suit, call the ACLU, call your Congressmen, just because you don't understand the legal system doesn't mean your point is valid.

there was nothing illegal about what hitler did either.

however, what the NSA is doing violates constitutional rights. that is illegal. the whole "it's not a violation until a court decides it is" isn't correct. that may be your opinion, but that isn't how things work.

reply to post by TritonTaranis


I was ok with him leaking secrets about what's going on in the U.S but then running to china then Russia? Defiantly doesn't sit right with me. I find it interesting the people that are putting him on a pedestal are failing to acknowledge this or go on his defense by saying " it was his only choice the government would have killed him". Manning is still alive and getting his trial isn't he? I'm not gonna side yet until this unfolds but leaking secrets to the enemy is always wrong in my book

Dude, Rand Paul is the #. I seriously hope he runs in 2016